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Author Topic: Who's good at high pulls & cleans?  (Read 2136 times)
The Wall
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2009, 06:51:12 AM »

Honostly full cleans are pretty tough to master on your own you really need a someone to watch you so that you dont ingrain bad habits, but learning and mastering are very different....watch some vids, read some articles and most importantly of all DONT USE YOUR ARMS to clean....a mistake that most people make myself included and its the easiest way to decrease the amount of weight you can handle and injure your bicep ive ever seen.

here a vid from my comp from last weekend, I started Olympic lifting about 3 months ago and love it, much more fun than the same old same old you get with BB

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M</a>

I competed in the superheavies at 115 kilos / 253 lbs

that clean was 145 kilos/319lbs
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2009, 07:19:12 AM »

Honostly full cleans are pretty tough to master on your own you really need a someone to watch you so that you dont ingrain bad habits, but learning and mastering are very different....watch some vids, read some articles and most importantly of all DONT USE YOUR ARMS to clean....a mistake that most people make myself included and its the easiest way to decrease the amount of weight you can handle and injure your bicep ive ever seen.

here a vid from my comp from last weekend, I started Olympic lifting about 3 months ago and love it, much more fun than the same old same old you get with BB

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M</a>

I competed in the superheavies at 115 kilos / 253 lbs

that clean was 145 kilos/319lbs


Great info and very good form.

Cleans take a long time to master, but they create explosive strength that carries over to almost every other Olympic lift.

Cool
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 07:20:41 AM »

I power clean more than I bench, I guess I do something right.  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 07:25:33 AM »

This is a learning exercise that requires a bit of time before getting so it becomes second nature to you. Going to have to start with just the empty bar it's self, so put the ego aside for awhile. Prefer an revolving Olympic bar, rather that a stiff exercise bar, when getting seriously into the lift. Easier on the wrist and joints.

Do 10 to 15 reps a set just to establish good form and mechanics  of the exercise. Timing will be very important, getting the pull and drop down squat position to all work together. Can do as many bar only sets as you wish. In fact, even every day with that bar, pole, dowel, broom handle, etc (many Olympic lifter have done this). Weight will not be needed when learning this exercise in the beginning. One of the main reasons is to prevent future injury's by doing the exercise the correct way. Should not take long to learn the movement.

Once having the form and confidence (should not take long at all), begin adding weigh from workout to workout. Squat cleans are a mass builder, without a doubt. Giving thickness not normally gained by only BB'ing exercises.Hits the lower quads very well. Add the press or jerk press for thicker shoulders.Good vid by The Wall. Webcke offers a good learning site or there are many others out there. If luckly enough, visit a OL's gym for excellent instructions. Good Luck.

Side Bar: if I posted this on the Training Board pumpster would probably delete it again.
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 07:48:44 AM »

Any olympic lift takes a while to learn let alone master. Fortunatly you don't need olympic lifts to be explosive.
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2009, 08:14:25 AM »

It's a trial and error for me. When I do a better lift I try to think what I did differently. Little by little the form gets better (I hope).

I felt like I hit one or two ok... or at least better than the rest.


I wouldn't say I'm good.

But I decided to train Olympic Weight Lifting for three months a few years ago.

I did different versions of snatch and C&J, and never went higher than 135 in the snatch and 225 in the C&J during the first two months.
I added front squats, back squats, dips and benchpresses to the training.
Just worked on technique in snatch and C&J.

Would always start with hang snatch for 4-6 sets of 2-3 reps.

then go full snatches.

then hang cleans.

followed by full cleans.

folllowed by full clean and jerks.

you get the idea.

Some of the best training I've done TBH.

I was really looking forward to getting into it today, knowing I had something out of the ordinary to do.  I'll start trying to learn the movements and add them in as work sets as my form improves.  Sounds like a cool program.  Would be nice to get proficient in these classic lifts.



Honostly full cleans are pretty tough to master on your own you really need a someone to watch you so that you dont ingrain bad habits, but learning and mastering are very different....watch some vids, read some articles and most importantly of all DONT USE YOUR ARMS to clean....a mistake that most people make myself included and its the easiest way to decrease the amount of weight you can handle and injure your bicep ive ever seen.

here a vid from my comp from last weekend, I started Olympic lifting about 3 months ago and love it, much more fun than the same old same old you get with BB

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4CF34g2P7M</a>

I competed in the superheavies at 115 kilos / 253 lbs

that clean was 145 kilos/319lbs

Oh man you made that look smooth!  No way in hell I'd get that weight past a deadlift.  I'll be trying to copy your form with something a little more my size.  Thanks for the post and the vid!




Great info and very good form.

Cleans take a long time to master, but they create explosive strength that carries over to almost every other Olympic lift.

Cool

It's definitely a totally different style than the old slow-mo I've been doing.  I gave up after just a few attempts 6 or 8 months ago, but I really want to learn this movement now.  It felt great doing something new tonight, even if it was ugly!

This is a learning exercise that requires a bit of time before getting so it becomes second nature to you. Going to have to start with just the empty bar it's self, so put the ego aside for awhile. Prefer an revolving Olympic bar, rather that a stiff exercise bar, when getting seriously into the lift. Easier on the wrist and joints.

Do 10 to 15 reps a set just to establish good form and mechanics  of the exercise. Timing will be very important, getting the pull and drop down squat position to all work together. Can do as many bar only sets as you wish. In fact, even every day with that bar, pole, dowel, broom handle, etc (many Olympic lifter have done this). Weight will not be needed when learning this exercise in the beginning. One of the main reasons is to prevent future injury's by doing the exercise the correct way. Should not take long to learn the movement.

Once having the form and confidence (should not take long at all), begin adding weigh from workout to workout. Squat cleans are a mass builder, without a doubt. Giving thickness not normally gained by only BB'ing exercises.Hits the lower quads very well. Add the press or jerk press for thicker shoulders.Good vid by The Wall. Webcke offers a good learning site or there are many others out there. If luckly enough, visit a OL's gym for excellent instructions. Good Luck.

Side Bar: if I posted this on the Training Board pumpster would probably delete it again.

Afraid I'm stuck with a standard bar for now.  If I don't clamp the collar hard against the plates it allows rotation, especially with some wd40 on there, but I agree an oly bar would be nice.  I'll have to stay with what I've got for now, but I'll consider the investment as my skill improves.

Ya, I was probably a little gung ho tonight.  I'll back it off and practice timing everything together.  Thanks jpm.



Any olympic lift takes a while to learn let alone master. Fortunatly you don't need olympic lifts to be explosive.

I'm pretty keen on adding some OLs just for the sake of variety... and vanity!  It's a lifter's lift, you know.  It would be cool as hell to be good at it.

I am keen on explosive strength and injury prevention for judo though.  It would be nice to go back with better balance and explosiveness.  I owe one guy a good seoi nage.  What do you recommend for your grapplers, Coach?
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2009, 04:09:42 PM »

I felt like I hit one or two ok... or at least better than the rest.


I was really looking forward to getting into it today, knowing I had something out of the ordinary to do.  I'll start trying to learn the movements and add them in as work sets as my form improves.  Sounds like a cool program.  Would be nice to get proficient in these classic lifts.



Oh man you made that look smooth!  No way in hell I'd get that weight past a deadlift.  I'll be trying to copy your form with something a little more my size.  Thanks for the post and the vid!



It's definitely a totally different style than the old slow-mo I've been doing.  I gave up after just a few attempts 6 or 8 months ago, but I really want to learn this movement now.  It felt great doing something new tonight, even if it was ugly!

Afraid I'm stuck with a standard bar for now.  If I don't clamp the collar hard against the plates it allows rotation, especially with some wd40 on there, but I agree an oly bar would be nice.  I'll have to stay with what I've got for now, but I'll consider the investment as my skill improves.

Ya, I was probably a little gung ho tonight.  I'll back it off and practice timing everything together.  Thanks jpm.



I'm pretty keen on adding some OLs just for the sake of variety... and vanity!  It's a lifter's lift, you know.  It would be cool as hell to be good at it.

I am keen on explosive strength and injury prevention for judo though.  It would be nice to go back with better balance and explosiveness.  I owe one guy a good seoi nage.  What do you recommend for your grapplers, Coach?

Everything we do on a weight training day is explosive. I keep their reps between 3-5 and as high as 8 but thats about it. My exercise selection is out of the ordinary for the most part and get creative with explosive training when it comes to ground based stuff. I do ALOT of eccentric heavy band training when it comes to ground training since power comes from the core, hips, hip flexors and glutes.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2009, 05:08:37 PM »

great thread
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2009, 07:38:40 PM »

One of America's greatest lifters, Tommy Kono explains the Olympic lifts- <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNy0Odapgds" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNy0Odapgds</a> .

It's a long and technical series of videos, but very good. As mentioned, the biggest things are understanding bar path and how to efficiently pull.

Smiley.
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2009, 06:29:53 AM »

Everything we do on a weight training day is explosive. I keep their reps between 3-5 and as high as 8 but thats about it. My exercise selection is out of the ordinary for the most part and get creative with explosive training when it comes to ground based stuff. I do ALOT of eccentric heavy band training when it comes to ground training since power comes from the core, hips, hip flexors and glutes.

Interesting.  I might lower the lbs a bit for the sake of the old joints and have a play around with fast concentrics, adding weight carefully.  Also see what I can come up with for explosive and powerful rotational force (for throws) too.  I train alone, so my ability to do eccentrics is somewhat limited but I'll do some googling for inspiration.

And yes, I'm weak where it counts.  I can see it's really time to revamp my program, less bodybuilding and more function.  Thanks for the response Coach.  I always value your advice.


great thread

Seemed about time for something related to lifting.  Wink


One of America's greatest lifters, Tommy Kono explains the Olympic lifts- <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNy0Odapgds" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNy0Odapgds</a> .

It's a long and technical series of videos, but very good. As mentioned, the biggest things are understanding bar path and how to efficiently pull.

Smiley.

I'm sitting down with dinner to watch these now.  Thanks BB!  You are a true llama, sir!  Smiley
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2009, 06:37:55 AM »

I felt like I hit one or two ok... or at least better than the rest.

Good. Talking about the power clean, I think if you can do 50% of your deadlift that's good. 60% would be really good. I think that I could get maybe 5 kg more out of a better technique at best. After that it's just raw training to get stronger and faster.
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2009, 09:00:51 AM »

Good. Talking about the power clean, I think if you can do 50% of your deadlift that's good. 60% would be really good. I think that I could get maybe 5 kg more out of a better technique at best. After that it's just raw training to get stronger and faster.

I backed off the weight tonight and just concentrated on technique for about 30 mins after a standard delts workout.  You couldn't call any of my cleans or snatches working sets or actual lifts tho.  Just practice.

It's tempting to stick with a power clean and power snatch because it's easier for me than dropping into a squat, but I need to get my dead legs back to life if you know what I mean.  They can squat (minimal lbs), press, extension, and curl, etc, but getting them involved in a timed movement is giving me the same slow feeling I had in judo - like the message to perform is being conveyed by a fucking pony express.  I'm going to drop into at least a quarter squat just so I get in the habit of keeping the legs involved.  Not sure if a shallow squat means it's not a true power clean.

Btw, I like snatches better so far because I get to avoid the clean's rack position which feels awkward.  Maybe I'll change my mind when I get some plates on there tho.  I'm LOLing so far at some of the vids saying "beginners always do this stupid shit" and I'm going yeah that's me!
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2009, 09:31:01 AM »

I backed off the weight tonight and just concentrated on technique for about 30 mins after a standard delts workout.  You couldn't call any of my cleans or snatches working sets or actual lifts tho.  Just practice.

It's tempting to stick with a power clean and power snatch because it's easier for me than dropping into a squat, but I need to get my dead legs back to life if you know what I mean.  They can squat (minimal lbs), press, extension, and curl, etc, but getting them involved in a timed movement is giving me the same slow feeling I had in judo - like the message to perform is being conveyed by a fucking pony express.  I'm going to drop into at least a quarter squat just so I get in the habit of keeping the legs involved.  Not sure if a shallow squat means it's not a true power clean.

Btw, I like snatches better so far because I get to avoid the clean's rack position which feels awkward.  Maybe I'll change my mind when I get some plates on there tho.  I'm LOLing so far at some of the vids saying "beginners always do this stupid shit" and I'm going yeah that's me!

Yeah it's good to practise with light weights first. I feel that the snatch is technically more difficult because it's harder to keep the bar close to the body, but it's mentally easier to drop under the weight.

I know what you mean with the squats, I'm slow as hell. I'm weak, but it's not only that. Maybe I should do some plyometrics.
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2009, 12:19:48 PM »

I use power cleans and old fashion split snatches in my routine. If your interested in functional transfer of strenght training to sports the power clean or power snatch will do the trick.  Learning the full squat version isn't necessary unless you want to compete in that sport.  I found I improve using some of the below points.

1. Use a hook grip.  It's seems painful at first but it really locks your hand on the bar.

2. Pull close to the body.

3. Keep your arms straight during the pull always.  It's not an upright row.  Also you can't transfer the power of your legs with bent arms.  The arms will bend at the transfer to the rack but you are never pulling with bend arms.

4.  When you quickly rack the weight most have to open their grip so that the bar rest on the shoulders.  Few can keep a closed grip on the bar.  

5. Never jerk the bar off the floor.  Leave that to the elite.  Pull the bar off the floor and then accelerate your speed.  

6.  Olympic lifts are a true power exercise.  It's seeing how fast you can get your stength transfered to the bar.  

7. Try to find someone that is an olympic lifter to give you tips on form in the gym.

8.  I disagree with high reps for the olympic lifts.  Cross fit does that but I believe that if your form disinigrates it could lead to injury.  Olympic lifts are an explosion not an endurance activity.  Use reps of no greater than 5 with most at 3 to 2.
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2009, 06:05:49 PM »

I use power cleans and old fashion split snatches in my routine. If your interested in functional transfer of strenght training to sports the power clean or power snatch will do the trick.  Learning the full squat version isn't necessary unless you want to compete in that sport.  I found I improve using some of the below points.

1. Use a hook grip.  It's seems painful at first but it really locks your hand on the bar.

2. Pull close to the body.

3. Keep your arms straight during the pull always.  It's not an upright row.  Also you can't transfer the power of your legs with bent arms.  The arms will bend at the transfer to the rack but you are never pulling with bend arms.

4.  When you quickly rack the weight most have to open their grip so that the bar rest on the shoulders.  Few can keep a closed grip on the bar.  

5. Never jerk the bar off the floor.  Leave that to the elite.  Pull the bar off the floor and then accelerate your speed.  

6.  Olympic lifts are a true power exercise.  It's seeing how fast you can get your stength transfered to the bar.  

7. Try to find someone that is an olympic lifter to give you tips on form in the gym.

8.  I disagree with high reps for the olympic lifts.  Cross fit does that but I believe that if your form disinigrates it could lead to injury.  Olympic lifts are an explosion not an endurance activity.  Use reps of no greater than 5 with most at 3 to 2.

Fact right there. One of the reasons why crossfit has so many lawsuits against them.
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

I'm only gay if you want me to be.......

 Grin

In that spirit...As a teenager , not getting much poontang, I used to pull it hard and long and cleaned it as fast as I could. I always liked the jerk a lot more than the clean.
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« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2009, 09:06:08 PM »

Power Clean

Hang Position
• Stance is the same as vertical jump and deadlift stance
• Use a double overhand grip a little wider than arms perfectly vertical
• Use close hand grip initially then the hook grip can be used later
• Hips are knees are locked out

Rack Position
• Get the bar to rest on anterior deltoids at first
• The bar should not be touching the sternum
• Elbows must be pointed forward no matter how wide the grip used
• Humerus should be as parallel to floor as possible. Widen the grip if necessary or allow two fingers to come off the bar in order to temporarily fix lack of mobility
• The bar is not sitting on the deltoids and should not be supported by hands or wrists at all
• Knees and hips are locked out in extension

Jump Position
• Stick your butt back by bending at the waist with a rigid spine and allowing your trunk to come forward
• Elbows remain straight the whole time
• Bar should slide down the thighs a little less than half way initially, then to just above the knees later
• As the bar descends the knees are not moving forward at all
• Shoulders are slightly in front of the bar
• Scapula’s directly over the bar
• Bar is still touching the thighs
• This position should be the start of every Hang Clean

Hang Clean
• From the Jump Position jump straight up into the air keeping the elbows locked. Do this a few times at first.
• Concentrate on letting the bar slide up close to the body
• Next, jump again but this time after you reach full extension of knees and hips then catch the bar on your shoulders in the rack position
• Do this by shrugging the shoulders at the top to finish the pull
• Then shoot the elbows forward and up while sitting back
• Keep the bar close to your chest at the top as you pull with the elbows locked until the jump has occurred
• Feet should land in the same place or a few inches wider
• Finish the Rack Position by standing up to fully erect posture

• Next, before you jump allow the bar to slide down your thigh further, to just above the knees.
• The knees do not move forward at all
• Perform the Hang Clean again from this lower position

Scoop Clean
• Next, allow the bar to go below the knees
• Bend the knees after the bar passes them allowing the bar to descend to mid-shin
• Understand that the hips bend to lower the bar to the knees and the knees bend to lower the bar to the floor
• When the bar reaches mid-shin then straighten knees until the bar clears them
• The bar should be touching the thighs again after it clears the knees. Don’t slow down to touch it. There should be a continuous flow from the bar below the knees to above the knees where the bar brushes the thighs.
• When the bar clears the knees then straighten the hips to initiate the Jump Position
• Initiate the jump when the bar is two thirds of way down the thigh, not as soon as it clears the knees

• After proficiency in the scoop clean is developed then use a Hook Grip by laying the middle finger on top of the thumb nail as the grip wraps around the bar.
• The bar should settle into the bottom of the hook made by fingers
• The bar now rests in the fingers during the pull and not a tight fist

Power Clean
Setup
• Stance is the same as vertical jump and deadlift, hip width apart
• bar is over mid-foot
• Chalk hands
• Step up with shins to the bar and attempt to have toes straight ahead as possible. Bar should be over the same spot on your shoes every time.
• Feet should be hip width apart or slightly closer
• Keep chest high and push hips back as you descend down to grab the bar
• Grab the bar with overhead with the arms nearly vertical or slightly wider. Hook grip is encouraged
• Set shoulders forward, out in front of the bar, scapula directly above the bar
• Pull yourself into scapular retraction and depression. Contract your core to arch your lower back. Keep entire back tight and locked
• Tighten triceps and take a big breath of air (or before you grab the bar)
• Fix your eyes on a point in front of you that causes a neutral cervical spine position (roughtly 10’ out in front)

1st Pull
• Drive through the heels
• Extend the knees mostly at first with a rigid back and constant torso angle to the floor
• Arms must stay straight
• Pull the bar slowly and correctly off the floor
• When the bar passes the knees then use mostly the hips to extend and allow the torso to come vertical

2nd Pull
• When the bar clears the knees then straighten the hips to initiate the Jump Position
• Initiate the jump when the bar is two thirds of way down the thigh, not as soon as it clears the knees
• From here, utilize the same technique as in a Hang Clean

Decent
• To finish the lift shrug the shoulders and shoot elbows backwards
• Allow the bar to drop towards the floor
• Follow the bar all the way down with the hands constantly in contact with the bar


em
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« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2009, 11:29:29 PM »

The Wall - Nice post - I compete as a weightlifter, so live and breath these lifts.

Contrary to most of the posts though, I disagree with the comment about the lift being done with good form. For someone who has only lifted for 3 months, who was a bbuilder, yes the form is OK. For a competitive lifter, the form needs a lot of improving (as I am sure you know).

It takes years to perfect your lifting form, and even the world's best lifters, who started lifting as young kids continusously work to improve technique.

Looking at videos, especially in slow-mo, and comparing them to the world's best lifters is a great way to improve.

In the clean portion, you need to focus a lot more on the shrug and you need to lose the urge to pull the bar with bent arms prior to completing the shrug. (This is actually very typical of a bbuilder who tries to do cleans). You need to focus on lengthening your body to maximum length with pulling and then with lightening speed get yourself under the bar.

If you want to start lifting bigger weights, (and you have the potential to get there) you need to focus on 3 things. Technique (maximise your efficiency, pull to the max), explosiveness, technique, and flexibilty.

Just to give you a feel how far you can get with the right technique, I train with guys who weigh 60-70kg who clean (and jerk) in the 150 kg range. With the strength you have now, I think you could with better technique clean 170-180kg with the right technique, speed and flexibility. Your jerk is not bad, and with some improvement you could quick quickly add 20kg on what you are now doing.

How's your snatch? Can you post up a vid?


 

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