long acting insulin for bodybuilding

[tbombz]

on several other boards and primarily european bodybuildign boards, long acting insulin is often discussed.

with test gh igf protein carbs etc etc...we want elevated levels 24 hours a day.

why use humalog, which only elevates insulin for a few hours?


the idea is it is safer to control blood sugar that way

however that only remains true if long acting insulin can cause hypoglycemia...

but through anecdotal and scientific evidence alike, it seems that non diabetics can use 24 hour insulin at pretty high doses and never have any blood sugar issues and never have to worry about going hypo.

more on this later, im at the library and my time on the computer uis running out.

[dustin]

I've seen this on the European boards as well. All those cats are all about the long acting insulin. Some use both and cram in their carbs in the morning.

I don't know why, but I'm scared to use long acting insulin. I just like the fact that with Humalog any hypoglycemic bouts can be eliminated quickly. As soon as I feel the onset of being hypo, just bang back a little carbs until it levels off.

If you happen to use Lantus or any other longer acting insulin, please post your results, man.

[tbombz]

I have read several posts from people who have shared their results, some naturals who used insulin alone at lower end of the doseage s[pectrum report 5-10 lb muscle gain in a month or two.

the main thing with long acting insulin... it works 24 hours of the day, keeping protein break down very minimal, reducing the demand for protein(making your normal protein intake excessive..and excessive protein intake might be helpful), slightly boosting protein buildup, and elevating metabolism.

because of its slow onset and low serum totals, the body has splenty of time to adjust gluconeogensis to match the reduction in blood sugar.. so one shouldnt ever encounter blood glucose issues.


according to one poster on rxmuscle, who seems to be the authority on this subject matter, lantus insulin binds to igf-1 receptors ten times better than normal insulin. and it can be used in the 50-100iu per day range safely(safety meaning no hypoglycemia).

 

[WillGrant]

You just got to watch when it peaks , slow acting slin is usely used before bed and peaks 6-8 hours after admin.When you sleep a around 5 - 6am in the morning the liver spikes glycogen into the blood stream , being asleep you wont be able to admin a fast acting slin hence drugs like protaphane given before bed and being there to cover the sugar spike.
I dont see any point in using it for bodybuilding purposes , stick to the faster acting ones like novo rapid etc

[MuscleMcMannus]

on several other boards and primarily european bodybuildign boards, long acting insulin is often discussed.

with test gh igf protein carbs etc etc...we want elevated levels 24 hours a day.

why use humalog, which only elevates insulin for a few hours?


the idea is it is safer to control blood sugar that way

however that only remains true if long acting insulin can cause hypoglycemia...

but through anecdotal and scientific evidence alike, it seems that non diabetics can use 24 hour insulin at pretty high doses and never have any blood sugar issues and never have to worry about going hypo.

more on this later, im at the library and my time on the computer uis running out.

So instead of talking about your ass in order to sound like another internet bodybuilding guru why don't you post these "scientific" studies as they relate to bodybuilding? 

[Dr Loomis]

For now I have to agree with dustin. I like knowing exactly what I need to do with no suprises. Ive added a solid 10 or 12 pounds with humalog over the past couple years and actually lowered aas use. Always good to read new research though tbombz.

[tbombz]

You just got to watch when it peaks , slow acting slin is usely used before bed and peaks 6-8 hours after admin.When you sleep a around 5 - 6am in the morning the liver spikes glycogen into the blood stream , being asleep you wont be able to admin a fast acting slin hence drugs like protaphane given before bed and being there to cover the sugar spike.
I dont see any point in using it for bodybuilding purposes , stick to the faster acting ones like novo rapid etc

i see a much better use for bodybu8ilding. short acting like humalog and novorapid are in and out quickly, doing nothing for al day anabolism. and why would you use short actinginsulin? to get high insulin levels. you can get high insulin levels without using humalog or novorapid....way higher than the 10-20iu amounts being used.

long acting workss all day long and doesnt effect natural insulin release in response to post prandial rise in BG

the lantus is supposed to have a very slight peak around 6-8 hours, yes, but its smal and inconsequential in pratcical terms... its very steady state and predictable

[WillGrant]

i see a much better use for bodybu8ilding. short acting like humalog and novorapid are in and out quickly, doing nothing for al day anabolism. and why would you use short actinginsulin? to get high insulin levels. you can get high insulin levels without using humalog or novorapid....way higher than the 10-20iu amounts being used.

long acting workss all day long and doesnt effect natural insulin release in response to post prandial rise in BG

the lantus is supposed to have a very slight peak around 6-8 hours, yes, but its smal and inconsequential in pratcical terms... its very steady state and predictable

Your body does this by itself though , slowly releasing insulin throughout the day ,you dont even have to eat anything to get a rise.A sudden shock which releases adrenilin which in turn releases glycogen from the liver also releases insulin , thats just an example but the body is constantly releasing and regulating itself..

If there was a problem with bodybuilders exposing themselves to diabetes i would think using long acting would be far more likely to than fast acting slin , it "could" make the body sluggish.

Do you have any factual studys on athletes or anyone to show admin of slow acting insulin in non diabetics does not effect natural output?


Im just speaking from someone who has used this drug for over 15 years and know how dangerous it can be..

[martellrui]

based on my personal experience with levemir I used at 20iu Ed for 4 weeks without any problem, it's pretty safe  guess this was my first experience with ins but I quit it because i'm  a little scared about long term side effects, also about efficacy on anabolism I don't know if it's better than the fast ones like humalog.

[io856]

I know a pro who is a milos disciple who uses lantus

[tstmaniac]

Does long acting insulin make you stronger? Do you keep your gains after stopping?

[tbombz]

Your body does this by itself though , slowly releasing insulin throughout the day ,you dont even have to eat anything to get a rise.A sudden shock which releases adrenilin which in turn releases glycogen from the liver also releases insulin , thats just an example but the body is constantly releasing and regulating itself..

If there was a problem with bodybuilders exposing themselves to diabetes i would think using long acting would be far more likely to than fast acting slin , it "could" make the body sluggish.

Do you have any factual studys on athletes or anyone to show admin of slow acting insulin in non diabetics does not effect natural output?


Im just speaking from someone who has used this drug for over 15 years and know how dangerous it can be..

i am aware that humans always have a basal level of insulin in their body. the idea here is to gt it elevated at supraphysiological levels all day long.

i dont have any studies only word of the mouth.

[Vet]

i am aware that humans always have a basal level of insulin in their body. the idea here is to gt it elevated at supraphysiological levels all day long.

I don't think that would work.  Supraphysiological levels means there will always be insulin acting to decrease blood glucose levels.  The body will attempt to compensate as soon as blood glucose levels drop to that individuals physiologic minimum.    This means release of other hormones that have an anti-insulin effect.  In other words, they basically act to increase insulin resistance in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels. 

[tbombz]

I don't think that would work.  Supraphysiological levels means there will always be insulin acting to decrease blood glucose levels.  The body will attempt to compensate as soon as blood glucose levels drop to that individuals physiologic minimum.    This means release of other hormones that have an anti-insulin effect.  In other words, they basically act to increase insulin resistance in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels. 

your right, in the sense that the body will adjust to it with "anti isulin" effects.

however, these are anti insulin i their effects on blood glucose levels. but there wont be any decrease in the effect of the bolus insulin on muscle anabolism.

[Vet]

your right, in the sense that the body will adjust to it with "anti isulin" effects.

however, these are anti insulin i their effects on blood glucose levels. but there wont be any decrease in the effect of the bolus insulin on muscle anabolism.

Uh?  yes it will.  Insulin is not a "selective" hormone like you are trying to imply it is.   

Basically you are trying to describe a ferret with an insulinoma--ie a mammal with a persistantly elevated insulin level.  In the case of the bodybuilders you are talking about they are injecting the insulin, in the case of a ferret, its due to a pancreatic tumor.  I'll tell you i've treated 100's of ferrets with insulinomas (pancreatic insulin secreting tumors) and not one time has there been one with increased muscle mass because of the insulin causing muscle anabolism.  Virtually every one will progress to muscle wasting (possibly with a pot gut) as a result of the counterregulatory hormones due to their insulin secreting tumor and chronic subnormal glucose levels--levels that may not be sufficient to cause a hypoglycemic coma, but subnormal.   Insulin controls blood glucose by allowing cells of the skeletal muscle, liver, and fat tissue to take up glucose, storing it as fat in fat cells and stoping the synthesis of glycogen in muscle and liver cells.   When this uptake is decreased (IE there is a decreased insulin effect or insulin "resistance") you will also see a concurrent decrease in the uptake of amino acids--the exact opposite effect from what is trying to be done.   You will have an initial secretion of GH as blood glucose levels are decreased by the supraphysiologic amounts present, but that will be replaced by cortisol with persistant elevated insulin effects.  You won't see a "selective" effect. 

The only place I can think of where this may result in an anabolic response would be if there is concurrent GH use.  Remember, GH is an insulin antagonist.  If someone is taking exogenous GH, they are at risk of developing insulin resistance--possibly to the point of Type II diabetes.  The exogenous insulin is basically supplementing what the GH is suppressing.   

[tbombz]

first off- yes, bodybuilder are insuiln resistant. your right, thi could be a reaosn why ti works. steroids and gh and other durgs all cause this. and everybodybuilder uses those drugs. so for the purpouse of our discussion, everybody has insulin resistance.

sceondly- homrones that boost blood glucose will counter the blood glucose lowering effects of inisulin. but they cant do anythign to stop insulin from binding to insulin receptors and igf1 receptors and helping spur anabolism.

[Vet]

first off- yes, bodybuilder are insuiln resistant. your right, thi could be a reaosn why ti works. steroids and gh and other durgs all cause this. and everybodybuilder uses those drugs. so for the purpouse of our discussion, everybody has insulin resistance.

sceondly- homrones that boost blood glucose will counter the blood glucose lowering effects of inisulin. but they cant do anythign to stop insulin from binding to insulin receptors and igf1 receptors and helping spur anabolism.

um, no.   The effects of insulin are not a result of it binding to a receptor, its a result of signal transduction---in other words the cellular effects are dependant upon insulin binding to its receptor, activation of cellular mechanisms with the ultimate goal of allowing glucose to enter the cell. You have lower than normal blood glucose levels, you are going to shut down those mechanisms becuase the bodies ultimate goal isn't building muscle, its providing fuel for the brain--in other words, regulating blood glucose levels.  Its a complex process, but its actually pretty simple if you think about it.   

[tbombz]

um, no.   The effects of insulin are not a result of it binding to a receptor, its a result of signal transduction---in other words the cellular effects are dependant upon insulin binding to its receptor, activation of cellular mechanisms with the ultimate goal of allowing glucose to enter the cell. You have lower than normal blood glucose levels, you are going to shut down those mechanisms becuase the bodies ultimate goal isn't building muscle, its providing fuel for the brain--in other words, regulating blood glucose levels.  Its a complex process, but its actually pretty simple if you think about it.   

the metabolic effcets of isulin aqnd the reaosn insulin is released is to control blood glucose.

just like the reaosn gh is released is to control blood glucose.

however insulin, like gh, has other effects (besides controlling blood glucose) as well.

its complex, as you admit, but you seem to be thinking that only one of the several complex effects actually matter. but they all matter and they all have actions.  reducing protein demand and protien breakdown, increasing protein synthesis, and keeping cells hydrated and packed with energy are all effects of insulin. and also, all effects that will spur anabolism.

how sweet, right?


your quite obtuse for someone so sharp

[Vet]

the metabolic effcets of isulin aqnd the reaosn insulin is released is to control blood glucose.

just like the reaosn gh is released is to control blood glucose.

however insulin, like gh, has other effects (besides controlling blood glucose) as well.

its complex, as you admit, but you seem to be thinking that only one of the several complex effects actually matter. but they all matter and they all have actions.  reducing protein demand and protien breakdown, increasing protein synthesis, and keeping cells hydrated and packed with energy are all effects of insulin. and also, all effects that will spur anabolism.

how sweet, right?


your quite obtuse for someone so sharp

Hard to admit you don't have a clue what you are talking about isn't it?     There was no reason to throw out insults.  You start doing that and I'm done with you. 

We've been through this before, you focus only on one single function of a hormone that has a complex interaction in the body----with the primary function of regulating blood glucose levels.   I don't know why that is so hard for you to comprehend, but it sure seems to be so.    Not only that, but insulin is a hormone that has finely regulated counter regulatory hormones---something that you also seem to forget or completely ignore. 

[tbombz]

Hard to admit you don't have a clue what you are talking about isn't it?     There was no reason to throw out insults.  You start doing that and I'm done with you. 

the only reason you would stop responding to me, if i insulted you again, was because you see an isult from me as an "out" so you can hold up your "reputation" of being "knowledgeable".. not because of the insult, you insult me in posts all the time.


We've been through this before, you focus only on one single function of a hormone that has a complex interaction in the body----with the primary function of regulating blood glucose levels.   I don't know why that is so hard for you to comprehend, but it sure seems to be so.    Not only that, but insulin is a hormone that has finely regulated counter regulatory hormones---something that you also seem to forget or completely ignore. 

in your first sentence of the above paragraph you stress the point that insulin has many functions..("you focus on only one single function..")... exactly what im syaing... while the body has counter regulatory hormones to insulin to prevent hypoglycemia, those counter regulatory hormones are not going to be able to stop insulin from transmitting its messages wich are pro-anabolic.

 many of these counter regulaory hormones actually will aid in anabolism, rather than negate insulins anabolic effects.  for exapmle, gh release in a hypercaloric state (like when using insulin) is VERY anabolic. and gh is oone of the counter regulatory hormones that keep hypoglycemia from occuring.

[Vet]

in your first sentence of the above paragraph you stress the point that insulin has many functions..("you focus on only one single function..")... exactly what im syaing... while the body has counter regulatory hormones to insulin to prevent hypoglycemia, those counter regulatory hormones are not going to be able to stop insulin from transmitting its messages wich are pro-anabolic.

 many of these counter regulaory hormones actually will aid in anabolism, rather than negate insulins anabolic effects.  for exapmle, gh release in a hypercaloric state (like when using insulin) is VERY anabolic. and gh is oone of the counter regulatory hormones that keep hypoglycemia from occuring.

Why are you trying to pick a fight?  I commented that I don't think something would work the way you think it would work and you are bordering on going off the deep end.   This isn't a personal attack, this is scientific facts.   If it was a personal attack I'd be calling you the dumbfuck you obviously are.  I'm not. 

Once again you are focusing on a very small part of a bigger picture.  Hypoglycemia causes the release of glucagon, somatostatin, cortisole, epinephrine, and GH among other hormones.  Since when was severe glycogen depletion caused by glucagon anabolic?  Since when was cortisol anabolic?  I think we can all agree thats considered an extremely catabolic hormone.  Since when was somatostatin anabolic?  Somatostatin directly inhibits insulin secretion, suppresses gastric emptying (read decreases nutrient absorption) and inhibits GH release.   Since when was an adrenalin surge anabolic?    Again you are focusing on one small piece of a much more complex puzzle.    You need to think about the big picture, not focus on minutia you apparently barely understand.   

The effects you keep quoting are not the isolated effects of insulin by itself.   You have to consider the other drugs the indivudals you are idolizing are taking.  Insulin to combat a drug induced insulin resistance makes sense to a degree.  Injecting insulin by itself does not.   The counterregulatory hormone effects cannot be ignored. 

[tbombz]

Why are you trying to pick a fight?  I commented that I don't think something would work the way you think it would work and you are bordering on going off the deep end.   This isn't a personal attack, this is scientific facts.   If it was a personal attack I'd be calling you the dumbfuck you obviously are.  I'm not. 

Once again you are focusing on a very small part of a bigger picture.  Hypoglycemia causes the release of glucagon, somatostatin, cortisole, epinephrine, and GH among other hormones.  Since when was severe glycogen depletion caused by glucagon anabolic?  Since when was cortisol anabolic?  I think we can all agree thats considered an extremely catabolic hormone.  Since when was somatostatin anabolic?  Somatostatin directly inhibits insulin secretion, suppresses gastric emptying (read decreases nutrient absorption) and inhibits GH release.   Since when was an adrenalin surge anabolic?    Again you are focusing on one small piece of a much more complex puzzle.    You need to think about the big picture, not focus on minutia you apparently barely understand.   

The effects you keep quoting are not the isolated effects of insulin by itself.   You have to consider the other drugs the indivudals you are idolizing are taking.  Insulin to combat a drug induced insulin resistance makes sense to a degree.  Injecting insulin by itself does not.   The counterregulatory hormone effects cannot be ignored. 

insulin, whether your insulin resistant or metabolicly healthy, is an anabolic hormone. yes it makes sense to use insulin to cure steroid caused insulin resistance, but so does spiking insulin in an insulin sensitive enviroment.

cortisol- mainly lipolytic hormone, in a hypocaloric state its can have catabolic effects if protein is inadequate. one thing your forgetting is that insulin release inhibits cortisol release, and also that even if cortisol is released, the anti corticoid effect of all steroids is tremendously effective at keeping cortisol minimal, even in the harshet of enviroments

glucagon- yes it does stimulat glucose to be released from glycogen stores, however in a high insulin high carbohydrate environment, glucagon will never result in glycogen depletion. insulin inhibits it from happeining, as well as all AAS (to a smaller degree than insulin albeit).

 injecting insulin doesnt make any sense at all, if its impossible to get insulin levels higher than what is possible physiologically. but when you can get insuli artifcially elevated to levels beyond what the body could do on its own, then insulin use is advantageous.

[Vet]

insulin, whether your insulin resistant or metabolicly healthy, is an anabolic hormone. yes it makes sense to use insulin to cure steroid caused insulin resistance, but so does spiking insulin in an insulin sensitive enviroment.

cortisol- mainly lipolytic hormone, in a hypocaloric state its can have catabolic effects if protein is inadequate. one thing your forgetting is that insulin release inhibits cortisol release, and also that even if cortisol is released, the anti corticoid effect of all steroids is tremendously effective at keeping cortisol minimal, even in the harshet of enviroments

glucagon- yes it does stimulat glucose to be released from glycogen stores, however in a high insulin high carbohydrate environment, glucagon will never result in glycogen depletion. insulin inhibits it from happeining, as well as all AAS (to a smaller degree than insulin albeit).

 injecting insulin doesnt make any sense at all, if its impossible to get insulin levels higher than what is possible physiologically. but when you can get insuli artifcially elevated to levels beyond what the body could do on its own, then insulin use is advantageous.

So you are now saying glucagon doesn't cause glycogenolysis?     You probably ought to review that process a bit.   

You are now contradicting yourself.    If you artificially elevate insulin levels to a supraphysiologic state, blood glucose will fall.  When blood glucose levels fall, the body tries to maintain homeostasis and secretes counterregulatory hormones to maintain normal glucose levels.    You keep forgetting this.    Why?

[Vet]

insulin, whether your insulin resistant or metabolicly healthy, is an anabolic hormone. yes it makes sense to use insulin to cure steroid caused insulin resistance, but so does spiking insulin in an insulin sensitive enviroment.

cortisol- mainly lipolytic hormone, in a hypocaloric state its can have catabolic effects if protein is inadequate. one thing your forgetting is that insulin release inhibits cortisol release, and also that even if cortisol is released, the anti corticoid effect of all steroids is tremendously effective at keeping cortisol minimal, even in the harshet of enviroments

glucagon- yes it does stimulat glucose to be released from glycogen stores, however in a high insulin high carbohydrate environment, glucagon will never result in glycogen depletion. insulin inhibits it from happeining, as well as all AAS (to a smaller degree than insulin albeit).

 injecting insulin doesnt make any sense at all, if its impossible to get insulin levels higher than what is possible physiologically. but when you can get insuli artifcially elevated to levels beyond what the body could do on its own, then insulin use is advantageous.

And you are way off base with the function of cortisol.  You need to think about that a bit too.    Remember, the blood glucose elevating effects of cortisol is strongly a result of amino acid degredation.  You don't really want that if you are trying to have an anabolic state. 

[tbombz]

So you are now saying glucagon doesn't cause glycogenolysis?     You probably ought to review that process a bit.   

You are now contradicting yourself.    If you artificially elevate insulin levels to a supraphysiologic state, blood glucose will fall.  When blood glucose levels fall, the body tries to maintain homeostasis and secretes counterregulatory hormones to maintain normal glucose levels.    You keep forgetting this.    Why?

i stated in my post that glucagon does this. i also stated that in a high insulin environment these actions will be negated. your familiar with certains hormones ability to counter regulate insulins blood glucose effects, did you forget of insulins ability to counter regulate those hormones effect on blood glucose? they cancel each other out to equal normal BG.

And you are way off base with the function of cortisol.  You need to think about that a bit too.    Remember, the blood glucose elevating effects of cortisol is strongly a result of amino acid degredation.  You don't really want that if you are trying to have an anabolic state. 

most of the time cortisol is released it does provide most of its glucose from amino acids via gluconeogensis, however when there are amino acids available from dietary sources these will be used before any amino acids are broken down from body stuctures. and to even better that point, when glucose is available from dietary sources OR body stores (aka glycogen) that glucose will be used before any gluconeogensis will take place.