Endocrinology

[tbombz]

I don't know about this one. Taking insulin isn't really a way to increase sensitivity, especially when bodybuilders are trying to increase the amount of insulin in the body.

Type II diabetics are sometimes treated with insulin early on. This protects the pancreas, since it's sugar that damages the pancreas and other organs. If they address the cause of the insulin resistance they might be able to drop the insulin later on and their pancreas will still be healthy. However, I don't see how taking insulin would increase sensitivity.

Bodybuilders on high GH dosages sometimes find they "need" extra insulin. This protects you but doesn't really solve the insulin resistance. Probably makes it worse, since you have even more insulin floating around. It's more like a temporary safe guard against damage from high BG.

i think i can explain what dustin means

if a person is using insulin often, on a rehgular basis, that means they are going to be controlling their fat intake, consuiming appropriate protein, and getting in tons fo carbs. all the carbs are being stuffed into muscle and thyey arebeing used to grow muscle. as long asw the person is controlling their fat intake they shouldnt ever put on fat with insulin useage and carbs and protein alone. the boosted level of insulin efects form doing so ould make it all glycogen. the resulting increase in muscle masswithno increase in total fat mass and resulting reduction in total bodyfat% from doing so would boost insulin sensitiviy as bodyfat% is  correlated with insulin sensitivity

[Vet]

As soon as I feel the onset of hypoglycemia, I ingest a small amount of carbs. What's wrong with that? The amount of carbs I consume is in alignment with what I need, otherwise I would still go hypoglycemic. And have I died of diabetic coma yet? No. I'm perfectly fine. And that's because anytime I did feel hypo, I had the perfect amount of carbs or consumed more carbs until everything was squared away.

You're taking what I said out of context and blowing it up at mass proportions. You're a fucking idiot. You know it, WillGrant. You're getting owned by the handsome Filipino book work. Are you melting down in real life too?

How about the fact that if you, as a nondiabetic, can feel the onset of hypoglycemia you have exhausted your bodies initial compensatory mechanisms---  you have a "shakey weak" feeling becuase of epinephrine release, which acts to mobilize stored glycogen (read glycogen depletion).   

If you eat a complex carbohydrate meal, you are looking at 10-20 minutes before you see an appreciable increase in blood glucose.   This means several minutes of glycogen depletion.  It also means secretion of other "hypoglycemic" hormones including cortisol.   There will also be some GH secretion, but I sure wouldn't bank on that leading to significant muscle gains. 

So lets say you eat a simple carbohydrate meal?  Unless you have things precisely measured--which will be dependant on a multitude of factors, your blood glucose will go up to normal, the body will begin replenishing glycogen(remember glycogen replenishment isn't an instantaneous phenomena), and then store any extra as FAT.   Consuming more carbs without measuring your blood glucose is not exactly smart.  Not only that you stand a big chance of yo-yoing your blood glucose levels, which will lead to decreased athletic performance.   I will tell you as a diabetic powerlifter, hypoglycemia within 2 days of a meet is a guarantee to not break PR's.  You may "feel" fine, but your optimal performance will be decreased.   

Why do pro-bodybuilders get by with insulin?  Personally, I think its becuase they may actually need it.  They literally induce a type II diabetes with GH and other drug use.  If you aren't using those drugs, you are potentially playing with fire.  At a minimum you are potentially screwing athletic performance/training. 

[Stavios]

How about the fact that if you, as a nondiabetic, can feel the onset of hypoglycemia you have exhausted your bodies initial compensatory mechanisms---  you have a "shakey weak" feeling becuase of epinephrine release, which acts to mobilize stored glycogen (read glycogen depletion).   

If you eat a complex carbohydrate meal, you are looking at 10-20 minutes before you see an appreciable increase in blood glucose.   This means several minutes of glycogen depletion.  It also means secretion of other "hypoglycemic" hormones including cortisol.   There will also be some GH secretion, but I sure wouldn't bank on that leading to significant muscle gains. 

So lets say you eat a simple carbohydrate meal?  Unless you have things precisely measured--which will be dependant on a multitude of factors, your blood glucose will go up to normal, the body will begin replenishing glycogen(remember glycogen replenishment isn't an instantaneous phenomena), and then store any extra as FAT.   Consuming more carbs without measuring your blood glucose is not exactly smart.  Not only that you stand a big chance of yo-yoing your blood glucose levels, which will lead to decreased athletic performance.   I will tell you as a diabetic powerlifter, hypoglycemia within 2 days of a meet is a guarantee to not break PR's.  You may "feel" fine, but your optimal performance will be decreased.   

Why do pro-bodybuilders get by with insulin?  Personally, I think its becuase they may actually need it.  They literally induce a type II diabetes with GH and other drug use.  If you aren't using those drugs, you are potentially playing with fire.  At a minimum you are potentially screwing athletic performance/training. 

very interesting

[dustin]

very interesting

I agree with what he said. I'm not diabetic and I haven't had a bad bout of hypoglycemia from using exogenous insulin, but I've become hypo other times... like going straight to work after the gym, or not being able to eat after a run or workout because of an emergency or family affair. It leaves you fucking drained for the next couple of days, even if you load up on the grub. It definitely exhausts your body, that's for sure.

Thanks for your input, Vet. I'm looking for responses like this - I am more than willing to learn but nothing but close minded, ad hominem attacks are coming from WillGrant so that's getting no where. Other than that, a few good bro-responses like "yup, insulin will fuck you up" is all that anyone else says either.

I would be more than happy if you could correct any other of my misunderstandings and I'm just here to learn. Will's elitist attitude is blinding him and he somehow thinks that propaganda rather than FACTS will keep people safe. I don't know why he's so stubborn.

[Van_Bilderass]

i think i can explain what dustin means

if a person is using insulin often, on a rehgular basis, that means they are going to be controlling their fat intake, consuiming appropriate protein, and getting in tons fo carbs. all the carbs are being stuffed into muscle and thyey arebeing used to grow muscle. as long asw the person is controlling their fat intake they shouldnt ever put on fat with insulin useage and carbs and protein alone. the boosted level of insulin efects form doing so ould make it all glycogen. the resulting increase in muscle masswithno increase in total fat mass and resulting reduction in total bodyfat% from doing so would boost insulin sensitiviy as bodyfat% is  correlated with insulin sensitivity

Sure, but there's more to insulin sensitivity than BF percentage. I think competitive bodybuilders are pretty damn insulin resistant, especially when contest lean. I just don't think hammering the system with even more insulin is a way to increase sensitivity. If you found a way to reduce the amount of total insulin circulating in the body by using exogenous insulin, then maybe I could see it.

BTW, what do you think of "maxititer's" idea that doing exogenous insulin post workout will not increase glycogen storage (or speed of glycogen storage)? He thinks it's basically counterproductive, regardless of what you eat with the insulin.

[tbombz]

to the above posters talking about hypoglycemia and no dabetics.  insulin works pretty much the same in type 1 and non diabetics. and if you use your humalog the same way as insulin dependant diabetics do, youll get the same action(s).  there really isnt a need to get super focused with your insulin and carb itnakes. you can do like a diabetic, and just eyeball the carbs for the insulin doseage. the body isnt a calculator. 

BTW, what do you think of "maxititer's" idea that doing exogenous insulin post workout will not increase glycogen storage (or speed of glycogen storage)? He thinks it's basically counterproductive, regardless of what you eat with the insulin.

well i see what he is saying.


 post workout you want elevated insulin for numerous reason. and he points out that this is quickly and efficiently done by consuming some carbs. no need for exogenous inuslin.

i agree. to get elevated insulin theres no need for humalog. and it was you who pointed ou to me that the human body can release equivelants amounts of probably 20iu or more.

so humalog for that purpouse doesnt make sense.


which is why i think long acting elevations with a lantus or levemir is going to be more effective.


but maxtiter has also mentioned before he thinks that combination of both basal and bolus is what reaops the most benefits.


i dont think its counter rpoductive, and based on all the anecdotal evidence of bodybuilders using humalog and geting results, there must be something to it. what is that something? i am not sure.

[Vet]

to the above posters talking about hypoglycemia and no dabetics.  insulin works pretty much the same in type 1 and non diabetics. and if you use your humalog the same way as insulin dependant diabetics do, youll get the same action(s).  there really isnt a need to get super focused with your insulin and carb itnakes. you can do like a diabetic, and just eyeball the carbs for the insulin doseage. the body isnt a calculator. 

Um, yes it is.  A truely well controlled diabetic CALCULATES the amount of insulin they need, they don't "eyeball it" like you claim they do.   Many people are using insulin pumps now days, which will automatically calculate it for that person---based on their activity levels, their blood glucose levels, and the carbs in the meal.  Eyeballing it is stupid in my opinion. 

i dont think its counter rpoductive, and based on all the anecdotal evidence of bodybuilders using humalog and geting results, there must be something to it. what is that something? i am not sure.

And with that you have shifted from science into the world of placebo results.  I guarantee you that I could take horseshit, put it in capsule form and get 10 or 20 top level bodybuilders to endorse it on message boards along with 2 or 3 pros, and it would be the hottest supplement on the market.   Thats a bullshit answer and really shows how naive you are. 




[/quote]

[Vet]

Sure, but there's more to insulin sensitivity than BF percentage. I think competitive bodybuilders are pretty damn insulin resistant, especially when contest lean. I just don't think hammering the system with even more insulin is a way to increase sensitivity. If you found a way to reduce the amount of total insulin circulating in the body by using exogenous insulin, then maybe I could see it.

I agree.

[tbombz]

Um, yes it is.  A truely well controlled diabetic CALCULATES the amount of insulin they need, they don't "eyeball it" like you claim they do.   Many people are using insulin pumps now days, which will automatically calculate it for that person---based on their activity levels, their blood glucose levels, and the carbs in the meal.  Eyeballing it is stupid in my opinion. 

And with that you have shifted from science into the world of placebo results.  I guarantee you that I could take horseshit, put it in capsule form and get 10 or 20 top level bodybuilders to endorse it on message boards along with 2 or 3 pros, and it would be the hottest supplement on the market.   Thats a bullshit answer and really shows how naive you are. 

i didnt say eyeball the insulin. and you nknow that is not what i meant. in referance to carbohydrate intazke, not a single diabetic on the planet is measuring out 10grams for every iu injected. they just have a set dose for small meals and big meals. you have said this before about yourself.

in bodybuilding, you cant always g by science. in the 70's the scientific world thought that steroids didnt do anything but placebo. and if you wanted to go only by science, then at that time youd have to have not used roids. but if you looked at all the big guys, you could tell through anecdote that yes stteroids were effective.

as with insulin, at the moment there is no science behind why it works, but the real world results say ti does.

[Vet]

i didnt say eyeball the insulin. and you nknow that is not what i meant. in referance to carbohydrate intazke, not a single diabetic on the planet is measuring out 10grams for every iu injected. they just have a set dose for small meals and big meals. you have said this before about yourself.

in bodybuilding, you cant always g by science. in the 70's the scientific world thought that steroids didnt do anything but placebo. and if you wanted to go only by science, then at that time youd have to have not used roids. but if you looked at all the big guys, you could tell through anecdote that yes stteroids were effective.

as with insulin, at the moment there is no science behind why it works, but the real world results say ti does.

um, no, there are a bunch of people claiming it works and a bunch of people jumping on the bandwagon---again see my horseshit example.   

[tbombz]

um, no, there are a bunch of people claiming it works and a bunch of people jumping on the bandwagon---again see my horseshit example.    

alot nof people say it works

alot fo epopl have gotte results

zero people as far as i know how say the have been consistant with it and gotten nothin out of it


thats pretty god evidence, hardly horseshit.


hows your week been? or btter ye, hows yoru life been? your always in a horrible mood... you dont think nondiabetics "deserve" to use insulin, am i right? you like to get sympathy form people because your insulin dependant, and you feel that nondiabetics who use insulin for cosmetic reasons make your life seem easier, and you get less sympathy.  

[Rimbaud]

Seriously Taylor, use spell check & edit your posts just a little.

[dyslexic]

Seriously Taylor, use spell check & edit your posts just a little.

You could post this suggestion in nearly every thread these days...