Mentzer owning Schwarzenigger?

[Bast175]

monster forearms

[PJim]

hey got screwed on placing probably because he called out Arnold and Joe Weider for being butt-buddies.

bast have you now come round to heavy duty style training? if so I congratulate you sir. RIP Mike.

[Bast175]

bast have you now come round to heavy duty style training? if so I congratulate you sir. RIP Mike.

Well I've only done two work outs so far.  They are painful and I get more sore than a regular workout.  I'm sticking to it. 

[Earl1972]

No matter what happened to him later in life, no one can deny...that is an amazing physique there.

what type of cycle do you think he had?

E

[PJim]

Well I've only done two work outs so far.  They are painful and I get more sore than a regular workout.  I'm sticking to it. 

Good stuff. I started training once every 3-4 days like Mike recommended and then inserted additonal rest days as necessary to stop the plateau like he says and I've been training once every week pretty much for the past two years. Best decision I ever made. At the age of 18 I was a lean 128lbs, 3 years later I'm leaning out 40 pounds heavier and can't believe how many years I wasted believing it was just because I was natural that I couldn't gain size so quickly.

[WillGrant]

what type of cycle do you think he had?

E

A 10 speed

[Heywood]

It is very difficult to prove any hypothesis using either Mentzer or Arnold (or Casey for that matter).

They were all taking steroids, and introducing that substance into the training programs is of such a substantial effect, that it changes any & all results.  I have no idea how you can factor that out.

By the way, I think Mentzer developed a speech pattern very close to that of Jones himself.

[Captain Equipoise]

H.I.T is a scam , the warmup sets aren't accounted for, when you really tally it all up, HIT training barely defers from standard training.

[PJim]

H.I.T is a scam , the warmup sets aren't accounted for, when you really tally it all up, HIT training barely defers from standard training.

I do one warm up which includes walking from my car to the gym....so explain how it is a scam if I am doing one set to failure on a handful of exercises each workout?

[bigkid]

H.I.T is a scam , the warmup sets aren't accounted for, when you really tally it all up, HIT training barely defers from standard training.

Agreed.  I rememeber guy who knew mentzer back in the laste 70's early 80's said he did a bunch of sets and would get all crazy when they would call him out on it.

[nukkaready]

The notion that you need to train less the more conditioned you get is totally absurd... you train more you get more conditioned... you train less you get de-conditioned. Your body adapts.

[#1 Klaus fan]

The notion that you need to train less the more conditioned you get is totally absurd... you train more you get more conditioned... you train less you get de-conditioned. Your body adapts.

That's the cold truth right there. Nothing to add basicly.

[The Luke]

That's the cold truth right there. Nothing to add basicly.

...impossible to find a big natural who trains with high volume, it just doesn't work without steroids.

Try reading a few natural boards... no one makes any progress with volume.
 
But 140 lb newbies and juiced-to-the-hilt to weigh 180 lb at 6' roid-boys are sure, absolutely sure that volume is the only way to go... because FLEX magazine tells them so.

I've been training HIT style with practically NO WARM UPS for 17 years, and I've made progress most people on this board (this board especially) would consider totally impossible. Never had an injury.

I now train only one and a half times a week... Monday, Friday and then just Wednesday the next week... I do only 10 sets total in a whole body workout...

...but of course none of that works.



The real test of efficacy here is one of like-for-like results.

Most naturals are only too aware (or at least should be aware) that the generally recognised limit for natural progress is somewhere around 3-4-5 territory:
-300 lb max bench for a single
-400 lb max squat for a single
-500 lb max deadlift for a single

How many on this board achieved that level before resorting to steroids?

I'm coming up on 10 reps with each of those weights, all thanks to HIT. I've been doing it ever since I plateaued with volume.

HIT is simply the very best training approach known... if you can't make progress with HIT you are either:
-not doing HIT properly
-not going to make any progress with any training system



The Luke

[Danimal77]

Bill Pearl said it best regarding Arnold.  "He a taker not a giver." 

I'm sure Arnold gave, when it benefited him most.

[#1 Klaus fan]

...impossible to find a big natural...

I agree. 

[The Luke]

I agree. 

...hey, I'm pretty big, and I'm a lifetime natural.


The Luke

[nukkaready]

...hey, I'm pretty big, and I'm a lifetime natural.


The Luke

big as in fat   fat guys (or shall I say big-boned LOL) are generally pretty strong... dude... HIT stimulates next to little hypertrophy... and yes.... no dope no hope... don't care what your training is like. still bottom line is... the more you progress the more you need to train to exceed that level.

[The Luke]

big as in fat   fat guys (or shall I say big-boned LOL) are generally pretty strong... dude... HIT stimulates next to little hypertrophy... and yes.... no dope no hope... don't care what your training is like. still bottom line is... the more you progress the more you need to train to exceed that level.

...so as you get bigger and have more muscle, damage more and more muscle by training more and more, somehow your body becomes faster and faster at repairing more and more muscle? Even though your intestines, stomach and CNS remain the same?

Don't you eventually end up training for hours and hours every day?

If a someone works up to training say, six hours every day, but is somehow inducing hypermetabolic recovery and repair... what happens if he misses a days training?

Does he explode in a huge ball of exponentially growing muscle?


Use a little logic.


The Luke

[lovemonkey]

...so as you get bigger and have more muscle, damage more and more muscle by training more and more, somehow your body becomes faster and faster at repairing more and more muscle? Even though your intestines, stomach and CNS remain the same?

Don't you eventually end up training for hours and hours every day?

If a someone works up to training say, six hours every day, but is somehow inducing hypermetabolic recovery and repair... what happens if he misses a days training?

Does he explode in a huge ball of exponentially growing muscle?


Use a little logic.


The Luke

Perhaps his point was that it takes a longer time to progress from a certain level.. not that you have to invest more hours per day necessarily.

[nukkaready]

...so as you get bigger and have more muscle, damage more and more muscle by training more and more, somehow your body becomes faster and faster at repairing more and more muscle? Even though your intestines, stomach and CNS remain the same?

Don't you eventually end up training for hours and hours every day?

If a someone works up to training say, six hours every day, but is somehow inducing hypermetabolic recovery and repair... what happens if he misses a days training?

Does he explode in a huge ball of exponentially growing muscle?



Use a little logic.


The Luke

HIT supporters are like religious people - brainwashed. You have your guru or god. Cool. You want facts... go with science... you train more you body adapts & you get more conditioned. You train less you get de-conditioned.

[The Luke]

HIT supporters are like religious people - brainwashed. You have your guru or god. Cool. You want facts... go with science... you train more you body adapts & you get more conditioned. You train less you get de-conditioned.

...MRI studies show eccentric/negative damage to muscle tissue can take up to 90 days to repair, and strenuous muscular effort can take many days to move from recovery into actual growth.

Your statements are only valid in terms of metabolic conditioning: ie you get better at training every day by training every day... it has little to do with muscle growth, which can only occur AFTER full recovery, and full recovery takes from a day/24 hours (strenuous effort in a newbie) to several days/48+ hours (strenuous effort in a heavily muscled advanced trainee).

These are just basic biological facts.



The Luke

[Bast175]

Do a set to failure with 6-8 second reps then tell me if HIT training is similar to regular training.    You'll have to use less weight of course.

http://www.enotalone.com/article/4848.html

[Bast175]

HIT supporters are like religious people - brainwashed. You have your guru or god. Cool. You want facts... go with science... you train more you body adapts & you get more conditioned. You train less you get de-conditioned.

Too bad there is a law of diminishing returns that applies to bodybuilding.

It's easy to stagnate in training that way.  If you are using the same weight and doing the same reps every week, you're not improving, no matter how many sets.

[PJim]

For naturals, heavy duty/HIT works LITERALLY miracles. Myself and all of the people I have trained with over the past few years have been converted and are constantly making gains above and beyond that which they even expected.
A lot of narrow minded people in this thread. If people believe that "more" training makes somebody more muscular than they are highly wrong. It's like people with weak calves who train them day in and day out, if they aren't growing off of a normal split they are more than likely overtrained, how can you solve the problem of overtraining with yes that's right; MORE OVERTRAINING. The bigger and stronger you get the more recovery it takes to reach a point at which overcompenstation takes place. It's like digging a hole, you use a bigger spade and it can dig more earth out but at the cost of more energy required by the body to move the damn thing around. But what if even one set to failure is too much for some individuals or some individual's bodyparts, what if the muscle needs COMPLETE rest, I'm talking weeks/months of rest and zero sets? What if the answer isn't MORE training but something RADICALLY different. What if the calves for example are stimulated as much as necessary for their individual growth potential by an exercise that is deemed an upper leg movement such as a leg press or a squat? Doing endless sets hoping for the right set that will suddenly trigger growth after hours and hours is like slapping on all the different tanning lotions available on different days of the week and then complaining they  won't work by going outside only at midnight like Mentzer says!

[The Luke]

For naturals, heavy duty/HIT works LITERALLY miracles. Myself and all of the people I have trained with over the past few years have been converted and are constantly making gains above and beyond that which they even expected.
A lot of narrow minded people in this thread. If people believe that "more" training makes somebody more muscular than they are highly wrong. It's like people with weak calves who train them day in and day out, if they aren't growing off of a normal split they are more than likely overtrained, how can you solve the problem of overtraining with yes that's right; MORE OVERTRAINING. The bigger and stronger you get the more recovery it takes to reach a point at which overcompenstation takes place. It's like digging a hole, you use a bigger spade and it can dig more earth out but at the cost of more energy required by the body to move the damn thing around. But what if even one set to failure is too much for some individuals or some individual's bodyparts, what if the muscle needs COMPLETE rest, I'm talking weeks/months of rest and zero sets? What if the answer isn't MORE training but something RADICALLY different. What if the calves for example are stimulated as much as necessary for their individual growth potential by an exercise that is deemed an upper leg movement such as a leg press or a squat? Doing endless sets hoping for the right set that will suddenly trigger growth after hours and hours is like slapping on all the different tanning lotions available on different days of the week and then complaining they  won't work by going outside only at midnight like Mentzer says!

Quoted for fucking truth!

The only caveat I would have is that the only reason why HIT works so well for naturals is because it produces results beyond what is believed possible (for naturals).

Why steroid using bodybuilders are so averse to using what is obviously the most productive training regimen ever is a mystery. Could it be there is an overlap between those who lack the drive to train really hard, and those who opt to make progress by simply drawing back further on a syringe?

As a friend of mine says: "HIT works for everyone, absolutely everyone... everyone except pussies!"


The Luke