Leg training and the "defeatist" philosophy

[dyslexic]

It has been said that good bodybuilders often approach leg training thinking they can only be successful if they are crawling out of the gym after their squats are completed.

Quote: "Usually, this defeatist philosophy is a result of improper exercise form (e.g.,bending forward, lifting too much weight sloppily, and a lack of concentration on the quads)--(")

Personally, I feel you must train "heavy" (entirely subjective to the individual) and you must also learn to feel the quads working and burning. There are skinny twink types in every gym doing 1/8 reps with 5 plates on each side. They NEVER grow and their physiques never change. These guys also steal every 45 in the gym for the leg press and move the apparatus about 4-5 inches. They are tearing the fuk out of their knees and ligaments. I know (and you know) that they truly want to be big, but they aren't asking for your advice(s) as you cringe watching them and their headsets blare...

It is not necessary to start with the mindset that squats must be so exhausting that the cardiology team must be notified at the end of your sets. Think "quads" but don't make your focus entirely on exhaustion. (?)


Those of us "old school" bb's probably have not really bought into this theory. I personally have a hard time with it, but the references are pretty solid.



I have learned to look forward to leg day, but deep down inside there is that dread. If you have truly worked your quads, you might feel queasy the rest of the day. No cardio. Long nap.


Am I messed up? Thoughts anyone?

[calfzilla]

This morning I went to the gym and there was this real hot fit chick there doing legs.  Man just watching her made me feel like a total pussy, but gave me motivation to train legs harder.  I admit I don't care enough about legs as I do upperbody plus my legs are genetically ok, but still I do have a lot of room for improvement and I honestly am not putting everything into leg training. 

[wes]

I always get a lot of anxiety on leg day,but I love the challenge.

[tonymctones]

I think im fairly gifted genetically leg wise as well at least compared to the rest of my body. I agree with trying to concentrate on your quads but in all honesty I feel squats more in my ass in general than quads. I always felt more quads from leg presses but I agree with a full range of motion.

I think the speed of the reps especially the negative part is really important as well you see alot of ppl on the leg press who basically drop the weight and then press instead of lowering it controlled.

as for the mentality I think that it can be counterproductive to be honest, that type of workout is extremely taxing not only physcially but mentally as well. Like you mentioned you get to the point where you dread leg days. I have a general idea of what im going to lift and how many reps Im going for before i hit the gym if I get that and have more in the tank I may do another set or a few more reps but I dont intentionally go to the gym with the idea of crawling out.

[nolotil]

leg training is hard..but some people forget what the goal is..the goal should not be to make it maximally hard or painful ,..goal should be to grow by getting stronger in the basic exercises but you have to do the movements correctly. in many cases squatting with your ass out like a powerlifter wont grow your quads optimally..better to use abit less weight and do them in a more upright position with good control. also squats are NOT a must to grow your quads its a great exercise for many but not everyone specially if yuo have very long legs then leg press can be a better choice

alot of people they go too heavy in the squats,, yes you must get stronger but get stronger with correct technique,, very important. quads can grow with low and high reps If you use correct technique..i say mostly do 6-12 reps for quads..sometimes lower than that and sometimes higher than that.

i believe in full range of motion most of the time,, sometime there can be specific use for partial movement but only when yuo know the correct technique and been training for a while can partial movements be used. safest is to do close stance partial press in leg press but only as addition never as foundation.


i built very large quads and i onnly done squat, leg press and leg extension for quads so there is no magic exercises. leg curl+straight leg deadlift for hamstrings


6-9 sets quads 6-9 sets for hamstring. every 5th day is very good for growth. 2 times per week in specific situation for 4-6 weeks if you do maintaince training for resr of the body

[dyslexic]

I went to the gym today for the big leg workout. I always have my days routine penciled out in advance. It makes me work harder because I have to set the standard and then rise to the occasion. If I don't do this with legs, I find myself wimping out with the rep count.

I had it all set up with 1) leg extensions 2) squats 3) hacks 4) leg presses 5) leg curls 6) stiff legged deads.


I did everything but the squats. I opted to max the weight on the leg press for 10 reps. I also added 3 sets of high-rep/ low weight at the end.


My leg press set went like this: 4 plates x 25, 6 plates x 20, 8 plates x 15, 10 plates x 15, 12 plates x 15, 14 plates (with knee wraps) x 15, 16 plates x 10. My legs actually buckled today during one of the lighter sets.


It was not my intention to leave the squats out, but I could feel that today wouldn't be a great leg day. I always make sure I get a big breakfast too. I won't skip my leg workout, I just deviate from the routine once in awhile. I got a bit dizzy and ended up with a slight headache, so I really didn't feel bad about leaving out the squats. I don't give a shit how many plates I can do for full reps on the leg press (even if my legs give out) -- the leg press is never as much work as squats no matter how much weight I use.


I guess today will be an "instinctual" training day, and I guarantee I will be sore tomorrow. I would not have made it through my sets, reps and pre-chosen weights in the squats today. Well, not without stopping every other rep to gasp for air and stop my head from spinning.


Bottom line: I still crawled out to my car and felt just like I always do. I guess it's inevitable on leg day.


You know what else sucks? The gym was packed ( I suppose b/c of the holidays) and everyone was pumping up their upper bodies. NOBODY ( I mean nobody) else was working legs.

Bastards. 

[Yev33]

As stupid as it sounds, the scene from pumping iron where Ed Corney and Arnold are squatting made me want to lift weights. When I was a kid I used to do tons of pushups, dips, and pull ups but didn't do anything for legs. When I saw that scene I knew that I wanted to squat, I could care less about the bench press and the curls. To this day, every single leg workout consists of either a back squat or a front squat for various rep ranges depending on the training phase. If Im feeling tired that day and have low energy, that will be the only thing I do that workout. There is no better feeling than setting a PR in a true full squat. I never have issues getting psyched up for squats, leg presses and hack squats I hate with a passion some days though and dread doing them.

[coltrane]

The key to leg training is short intervals between sets.  Period.

Squats build big asses.

Heavy leg presses with short rest periods between sets are great.  Then higher rep lighter weight.


Short rest intervals.

[dyslexic]

I've seen Charles Glass go off on the stance in a squat having everything to do with ass width (hips) or the quads. Many "gurus" say to keep the stance narrow, toes slightly inward and lower just below parallel for more quads, less ass.


Who knows? I can get wasted on leg presses and I feel that they are very productive. I also think that the squats will get you some decent quad size... not sure about the hip width theory.


Power lifters always take that wide stance... do they have big asses? I ain't gonna look.

[Meso_z]

I also think smith squats are great for quads, did them today..

[nolotil]

The key to leg training is short intervals between sets.  Period.

Squats build big asses.

Heavy leg presses with short rest periods between sets are great.  Then higher rep lighter weight.


Short rest intervals.

not true..if you take too short rest you will have to use much lighter weight and heavy tension is what grows your muscle primarily. yes pump feels great with short rest but its desceptive feeling. as pump doesnt grow you.
 squat dont only build big ass they big big huge legs for alot people if they have structure for squats and correct bodybuilding squat technique and dont squat like powerlifters,,squats are not a must but for many people they are a great exercise.

if your smart you do first heavy exercise with adequate rest between set..maybe 3-5 min...then second exercise faster pace then you get best of both worlds,.

[dyslexic]

I also think smith squats are great for quads, did them today..

I would opt for them more often if the Smith wasn't always being used at my gym. Someone is always doing incline presses on it... forever.

[Yev33]

Maybe it's just me, but I never liked smith squats. Tried the back squats and front squats at various times and it never feels right to me, it's like my body is being forced into a movement pattern that it wasn't designed for. Usually my back or my knees ache after doing them and that never happens with free squats. Plus im stronger on free squats so I figure whats the point.

[calfzilla]

I skipped legs today and opted for a nap.  So tomorrow I will train with much intensity. 

[YoungBlood]

I've always been a squat kind of guy. Never really liked leg presses. I find them to not allow me ROM, if I do them where I feel comfortable with the ROM, my butt comes off the pad- and that's with the back pad all the way back.

I love squats. The feel of my legs pumping with blood, the weight on my back, the plates jangling and making that beautiful sound, the challenge of trying to increase weight and/or reps.

And I've said it before, and will continue to say it again....I do not care what the weight on the bar is. I'm after what the weight feels like. Like Robbie Robinson once was quoted as saying in a M&F book, "make the 225 feel like 405."

I've had workouts where I nearly passed out, doing supersets, trisets, giant sets...doing maximum lifts, or super slow lifts with an outrageous TUT count. It's all valid, it's how you piece it together and when, that counts.

[dyslexic]

I've always been a squat kind of guy. Never really liked leg presses. I find them to not allow me ROM, if I do them where I feel comfortable with the ROM, my butt comes off the pad- and that's with the back pad all the way back.

I love squats. The feel of my legs pumping with blood, the weight on my back, the plates jangling and making that beautiful sound, the challenge of trying to increase weight and/or reps.

And I've said it before, and will continue to say it again....I do not care what the weight on the bar is. I'm after what the weight feels like. Like Robbie Robinson once was quoted as saying in a M&F book, "make the 225 feel like 405."

I've had workouts where I nearly passed out, doing supersets, trisets, giant sets...doing maximum lifts, or super slow lifts with an outrageous TUT count. It's all valid, it's how you piece it together and when, that counts.

Pics of legs to make sure your philosophy is working... 

[YoungBlood]

Pics of legs to make sure your philosophy is working... 

This is GetBig....nobody that talks a big game actually posts pics. You a newbie or something?

[Meso_z]

I would opt for them more often if the Smith wasn't always being used at my gym. Someone is always doing incline presses on it... forever.

it felt great. no homo

it allows you to go down more "vertical" and use more quads..

[chaos]

I also think smith squats are great for quads, did them today..

The thing I found about smith squats was that I had a tendency to push back instead of up during heavier sets because of the fixed plane of motion.

[slaveboy1980]

And I've said it before, and will continue to say it again....I do not care what the weight on the bar is. I'm after what the weight feels like. Like Robbie Robinson once was quoted as saying in a M&F book, "make the 225 feel like 405."

I've had workouts where I nearly passed out, doing supersets, trisets, giant sets...doing maximum lifts, or super slow lifts with an outrageous TUT count. It's all valid, it's how you piece it together and when, that counts.

bullshit. that kind of nonsense will backfire for people who aint on drugs.

[chaos]

bullshit. that kind of nonsense will backfire for people who aint on drugs.

Why

[wild willie]

I've always been a squat kind of guy. Never really liked leg presses. I find them to not allow me ROM, if I do them where I feel comfortable with the ROM, my butt comes off the pad- and that's with the back pad all the way back.

I love squats. The feel of my legs pumping with blood, the weight on my back, the plates jangling and making that beautiful sound, the challenge of trying to increase weight and/or reps.

And I've said it before, and will continue to say it again....I do not care what the weight on the bar is. I'm after what the weight feels like. Like Robbie Robinson once was quoted as saying in a M&F book, "make the 225 feel like 405."

I've had workouts where I nearly passed out, doing supersets, trisets, giant sets...doing maximum lifts, or super slow lifts with an outrageous TUT count. It's all valid, it's how you piece it together and when, that counts.

EXCELLENT STATEMENT HERE........IT IS KEY TO FEEL THE MOVEMENT AND TO CONTROL THE WEIGHT........FURTHERMOR E.....I HAVE SEEN COUNTLESS PEOPLE LIFT HEAVY IRON AND THEY NEVER GROW......BECAUSE THEY NEVER LEARN TO CONNECT THEIR MIND WITH THE EXERCISE THEY ARE PERFORMING. IMHO

[dyslexic]

Is LEE PRIEST here...?

[YoungBlood]

bullshit. that kind of nonsense will backfire for people who aint on drugs.

Like Chaos also said...."Why?"

[slaveboy1980]

Like Chaos also said...."Why?"

because that line of reasoning often leads to  chasing the pump or just 'feeling the muscle' and focusing on all kinds of crap that isnt imporant, but not on the most important thing (specially for naturals): increasing the weight of the bar.

certainly you should focus on correct technique and im not saying you should squat like a powerlifter with ass out and basically do goodmorning but fuck all that pump chasing training and making a 10lbs feeling like 25lbs bullshit. only works for drug users (hi milos), and even for drug users its a shitty approach.

keep a logbook and try to get stronger. forget all the vodoo bullshit about giant sets, super slow etc..    
sure drop sets ,supersets (alternating a quad exercise and a hamstrings exercise...but with rest between so you dont sacrifice poundages) can be useful sometimes but in general focus on straight sets and increasing the poundages you use.

and yeah as was mentioned above: dont rush between your heavy sets. do your heavy work and then if you want to you can do your second exercise with slightly lighter weights and less rest between the sets. heavy tension+ metabolic fatigue.