Leg training and the "defeatist" philosophy

[YoungBlood]

because that line of reasoning often leads to  chasing the pump or just 'feeling the muscle' and focusing on all kinds of crap that isnt imporant, but not on the most important thing (specially for naturals): increasing the weight of the bar.

certainly you should focus on correct technique and im not saying you should squat like a powerlifter with ass out and basically do goodmorning but fuck all that pump chasing training and making a 10lbs feeling like 25lbs bullshit. only works for drug users (hi milos), and even for drug users its a shitty approach.

keep a logbook and try to get stronger. forget all the vodoo bullshit about giant sets, super slow etc..    
sure drop sets ,supersets (alternating a quad exercise and a hamstrings exercise...but with rest between so you dont sacrifice poundages) can be useful sometimes but in general focus on straight sets and increasing the poundages you use.

and yeah as was mentioned above: dont rush between your heavy sets. do your heavy work and then if you want to you can do your second exercise with slightly lighter weights and less rest between the sets. heavy tension+ metabolic fatigue.

So then what would happen, in your opinion, if someone was gunning for 10 reps with 225 making it feel as heavy as possible and once you hit 10 reps you raise the weight to 245 and repeat the cycle? 

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees here. I mentioned just one factor/aspect, and you make it seem like nobody should do that because they'll lose focus on other things...in other words I think you generalized what I said. Or maybe I did that with your statement. Either way, I'll just agree to disagree.

[tbombz]

because that line of reasoning often leads to  chasing the pump or just 'feeling the muscle' and focusing on all kinds of crap that isnt imporant, but not on the most important thing (specially for naturals): increasing the weight of the bar.

certainly you should focus on correct technique and im not saying you should squat like a powerlifter with ass out and basically do goodmorning but fuck all that pump chasing training and making a 10lbs feeling like 25lbs bullshit. only works for drug users (hi milos), and even for drug users its a shitty approach.

keep a logbook and try to get stronger. forget all the vodoo bullshit about giant sets, super slow etc..    
sure drop sets ,supersets (alternating a quad exercise and a hamstrings exercise...but with rest between so you dont sacrifice poundages) can be useful sometimes but in general focus on straight sets and increasing the poundages you use.

and yeah as was mentioned above: dont rush between your heavy sets. do your heavy work and then if you want to you can do your second exercise with slightly lighter weights and less rest between the sets. heavy tension+ metabolic fatigue.

right on the money. the weight always has to be increasing. although i would point out that we are talking about getting a certain weight for a certain amount of reps, and increasing the weight used within a certain rep range. most of the time we are talking about working out with 3-5 exercises and 3-5 sets per exercise. maybe one warm up in the first one or two exercises. and workign out with poundages that make you come close to, if not to failure at about 6-10 reps.  week by week you slowly get stronger and increase the amount of weight your wroking with. when one weight gets light enough for you to get 11 reps, then you increase the weight to one where you can get 5-6 reps. then slowly get up to where you can do that weight for 11 reps, then repeat that process over and over again. sticking to basic compound exercises. this is a completely fol proof way to ensure optimal growth.

[nolotil]

good stuff slaveboy1980 i agree with you totally., many people make it more complicated than it need to be, and focus on wrong parameters.  
i see it happening all the time people go to the gym without defined goal which will hold them back. tip top post!

[tbombz]

So then what would happen, in your opinion, if someone was gunning for 10 reps with 225 making it feel as heavy as possible and once you hit 10 reps you raise the weight to 245 and repeat the cycle?  

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees here. I mentioned just one factor/aspect, and you make it seem like nobody should do that because they'll lose focus on other things...in other words I think you generalized what I said. Or maybe I did that with your statement. Either way, I'll just agree to disagree.

i cant speak for slaveboy but i know thta i dont personally see why what your saying cant apply to what slaveboy was saying. most of the time people associate "pump" "feel" "squeeze" "stretch" "isolate"...with "train like a pussy and never increase weight"...     so of course someone will experience shitty results if they are trainign that way....  but when you train hard and increase weight AND focus, feel, squeeze, isolate...thats just covering all your bases.

[YoungBlood]

The weight isn't the only thing that matters. I don't think either of you are saying that, really I hope that's not the case. But there's a happy medium between the fucktards that lift 405 for squats of a brutal 1/4" of depth, and have toothpick-like development, versus guys that squat half as much and have better results.
Most people are on either end of the two extremes. Not too many that you find in the middle. But the guy you find in the middle, is the guy that is making progress.

[tbombz]

The weight isn't the only thing that matters. I don't think either of you are saying that, really I hope that's not the case. But there's a happy medium between the fucktards that lift 405 for squats of a brutal 1/4" of depth, and have toothpick-like development, versus guys that squat half as much and have better results.
Most people are on either end of the two extremes. Not too many that you find in the middle. But the guy you find in the middle, is the guy that is making progress.

well weight is not the only thing that matters. of course proper execution of the exercise is critical as well.

[dyslexic]

More strength is logically supposed to equate to more muscle.


On the other hand, you will see powerlifters get stronger over time and maintain the same weight class.


Me? I like getting stronger, but truth be told-- I much prefer getting BIGGER!    Isn't this why a bodybuilding competition couldn't possibly be a strongman event?


I have always kept a training log. I am fairly meticulous with it. There are times when more strength resulted in more size, but not always.

[wes]

Gotta` agree with my man Youngblood on this one.


Most people are gonna` plateau strengthwise once a certain poundage is reached.....sometimes for quite a while, thus making a poundage increase impossible as well as even adding one more rep to a set.

Lots of ways to increase intensity,some of which Youngblood already mentioned.

Build the muscle=the key thing to remember in bodybuilding............ ...... and increasing weight is not the only way to do that.

[chaos]

Gotta` agree with my man Youngblood on this one.

Build the muscle=the key thing to remember in bodybuilding............ ...... and increasing weight is not the only way to do that.

This.

[IrishMuscle84]

I love training legs ......yes, i just said i love training legs.

[Yev33]

you gotta love leg day, if you have  a busy and hectic week and you could only make it to the gym once that week but you did some heavy ass deads or squats till you saw stars in your eyes all your training sins have been forgiven!

[slaveboy1980]

So then what would happen, in your opinion, if someone was gunning for 10 reps with 225 making it feel as heavy as possible and once you hit 10 reps you raise the weight to 245 and repeat the cycle? 

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees here. I mentioned just one factor/aspect, and you make it seem like nobody should do that because they'll lose focus on other things...in other words I think you generalized what I said. Or maybe I did that with your statement. Either way, I'll just agree to disagree.

im not missing anything, just saying if your not getting stronger over a period of time you wont grow. you can superset and dropset all day but without adding weight to the bar sometime you aint growing. and of course im talking about using good technique (although i do believe in cheating in certain situations).

in the short term, yes you can grow for a limited time by using the same weight, and also by manipulating other variables than weight on the bar, but its not a longterm strategy for growth.

as for getting past plateus: the best way to do that is to plan your training (and progress)...periodize your training.

[wes]

To build muscle,you must first break down tissue,then ea,sleep/rest to rebuild.

You gotta` train your ass off, but adding weight to the bar is just one of many ways to tear down tissue so that it can be rebuilt later.

[slaveboy1980]

To build muscle,you must first break down tissue,then ea,sleep/rest to rebuild.

You gotta` train your ass off, but adding weight to the bar is just one of many ways to tear down tissue so that it can be rebuilt later.

1. adding weight to the bar is the MAIN growth pathway in the long term. (or actually more and more tension on the muscle)
2. if you read my reply i stated yes there are other things you can do in the short term to squeeze out growth BUT IF YOUR NOT GETTING STRONGER IN THE LONG RUN YOU AINT FUCKING GROWING NO MATTER WHAT YOUR 80s FLEX MAGAZINES SAY. end of story (atleast for naturals  ).
3. drugs change alot of things but even as a drug user you should focus on adding weight to the bar.
4. adding weight to the bar and focusing on getting stronger doesnt mean you necessarily have to lift exactly like a powerlifter, nor does it mean im advocating poor technique.
5. i cant believe how poor knowledge base alot of so called bodybuilders have. stop using flex magazine as your only source of information about training and nutrition.

[slaveboy1980]

to build muscle synthesis has be larger than muscle breakdown. the body is always both breaking down and synthesizing muscle tissue. usually there is a balance between synthesis and breakdown. training increases protein synthesis  AND breakdown...,but together with protein (amino acids)+carbs, training (hopefully)increases protein synthesis more than breakdown > net effect is growth.
as the years* go by the protein syntesis increase from training+protein and carbs grows less which explains why it becomes harder and harder to grow.

*training years +natural ageing process

[dyslexic]

I'm wondering how many of you read this thread? It really veered off track as far as "The Gym" itself was concerned, but it also became interesting at times. There are a few points discussed there that I was trying to discuss here.


http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=312567.0

Seems we are all wrong (and have been) for quite some time... regardless of our knowledge and progress.  


Sorry, no cliffs. It was this statement that got me going:

"Not really. Anyone who has been around the Irongame for a long time realizes that a lot of beliefs are held like people hold religious convictions. Opinions and attitudes spread in various ways and they guide behaviour, beliefs, theories and so on. We believe lots of things we don't comprehend. Eg., a muscle needs to recover to grow. That, in my opinion, is false, but most gym goers believe it. The actual physical processes that occur in muscles are very complicated. The discipline of exercise science is exceedingly difficult, and most here, including myself, don't have the vocabulary to comprehend it. That doesn't stop us from formulating theories based on our experience. However, that usually isn't very solid for evidence that the theories work and are true.

If what I am saying is true is it any wonder that there is so much disagreement in bodybuilding? Go to any muscle forum and there are still debates about training." 
 
 

[greg2112]

good advice!!  I am natural and I got stuck in a major rut in terms of lifting..Disovered the DC principles a yr ago and have never looked back in terms of volume/pump lifting..Eating healthy and beating the log book weekly has helped overcome a major rut

1. adding weight to the bar is the MAIN growth pathway in the long term. (or actually more and more tension on the muscle)
2. if you read my reply i stated yes there are other things you can do in the short term to squeeze out growth BUT IF YOUR NOT GETTING STRONGER IN THE LONG RUN YOU AINT FUCKING GROWING NO MATTER WHAT YOUR 80s FLEX MAGAZINES SAY. end of story (atleast for naturals  ).
3. drugs change alot of things but even as a drug user you should focus on adding weight to the bar.
4. adding weight to the bar and focusing on getting stronger doesnt mean you necessarily have to lift exactly like a powerlifter, nor does it mean im advocating poor technique.
5. i cant believe how poor knowledge base alot of so called bodybuilders have. stop using flex magazine as your only source of information about training and nutrition.

[tbombz]

slaveboy is right. if you are growing, you are getting stronger, if only just a little bit. if the muscle grew, it also got a stronger.

[slaveboy1980]

let me also add that you dont (and can't after you been training a while) have to add weight or reps EVERY workout (as some HIT maniacs claim). im not saying that at all..and you can actually stimulate growth with same weight for a certain amount of time and by manipulating variables such as training volume (generally not a route id recommend for naturals..but this is not the place to go into details about that), workout density (including rest periods between sets)..but we are talking about a very limited time. so what people should be doing is having a SYSTEM FOR PROGRESSION (which should be included in a periodized set up) and not rely on haphazard supersetting or dropsetting to bust through plateus.

[tbombz]

let me also add that you dont (and can't after you been training a while) have to add weight or reps EVERY workout (as some HIT maniacs claim). im not saying that at all..and you can actually stimulate growth with same weight for a certain amount of time and by manipulating variables such as training volume (generally not a route id recommend for naturals..but this is not the place to go into details about that), workout density (including rest periods between sets)..but we are talking about a very limited time. so what people should be doing is having a SYSTEM FOR PROGRESSION (which should be included in a periodized set up) and not rely on haphazard supersetting or dropsetting to bust through plateus.

thats true but it is possible to always increase weight. you can buy little magnetic plates that come in very light amounts. keeping a log book and every week going up in small increments. im talking one or maybe two or three pounds a week. some weeks maybe you get a half pound.  but always a bit more.

i believe its called "the kaisen method"

[slaveboy1980]

thats true but it is possible to always increase weight. you can buy little magnetic plates that come in very light amounts. keeping a log book and every week going up in small increments. im talking one or maybe two or three pounds a week. some weeks maybe you get a half pound.  but always a bit more.

i believe its called "the kaisen method"

yes kaisen is a japanese word for small improvements if i remember correctly (and the concept has been applied in many fields). what you say is partly true..but even with very small plates not everyone will be able to get stronger from workout to workout. for example at advanced levels rate of adaption will be so slow so not even microplates will always been enough or the smart way to go (for various reasons..one being: manipulating reps may be more effective)
also there is another factor that using microplates you often have to increase the length (stretch out) of a training cycle which necessarily doesnt have to be a good thing. there is much to write about this subject but i dont wanna get too much into advanced training programming in this thread.

dont get me wrong microplates can be a good idea but is not always the way to go.

let me also add that i certainly believe in using small plates such as 0.5kg-1kg..and i do so myself but  you wont always be able to addt even that from workout to workout. nor is it necessary to add weight EVERY SEssion as some HIT fanatics claim.

[dyslexic]

... there is much to write about this subject but i dont wanna get too much into advanced training programming in this thread.

Why not? We got all the time and ears in the world. If you can't get into it here, where can you? Start a new thread if you want... I'm all ears.


I'm here to gain knowledge. Don't hold back on me now!

[Yev33]

Why not? We got all the time and ears in the world. If you can't get into it here, where can you? Start a new thread if you want... I'm all ears.


I'm here to gain knowledge. Don't hold back on me now!

We are all here to gain knowledge, anyone that has been lifting for over 5 years has run into plateaus and had to do something to get past them. Im always interested in what others have to say on the topic of progression. We might not be 100% right in our theories, but if they have worked even for a little bit in either adding strength or mass ( or both ) we can't be 100% wrong. So I say if you have information or opinions on the subject you should definetly post them.

[jpm101]

May be rare but I notice that some BB'ers just do not like having a heavy bar placed on their shoulders. Let alone walking backwards with it (even in a cage, that fear is still present). Somewhat of a phobia that the weight (any weight ..really) will trap them under it or crush and/or wreak their backs somehow. Balance can also be an issue to throw into the mix(put heels on a 2X4 or BB plates for better balance and quad influence). So with them the defeatist attitude is pre established. This phobia can also transfer over to DL's. To the extreme, even having a weight over you (BB bench press) or above you (BB overhead pressing). All this unfounded fear can be overcome with a little patience, usually. Sure this has never happen to any of the macho studs on GB(?).

These types are better off with leg and other machines. Thought when doing BB hacks for the legs (great quad mass builder) it seems less a worry for them. This might suggest that the distance or height of the bar from the ground may have an effect on their fears. All a confidence factor really. Good Luck.

[IronIsLife]

I love training legs but I have to agree with the OP that the sense of "dread" is definitely there pre-workout.

I think that's actually a good sign because it means that you have a standard to which you feel you must adhere.

I know that even though I often want to quit early, the feeling I have if I do is so much worse that I never stop until I've completed what I set out to before I stepped foot in the gym.