Author Topic: Bob Cicherillo question...  (Read 28092 times)

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14916
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2009, 10:58:42 AM »
Exactly...training to failure (true failure) is just about the dumbest routine I ever tried...and an engraved invitation to injury...often, the failure, is the muscle or tendon pulling off the bone, or some other nagging injury that takes you out of action for months...
What are you naming these guys for?  The only guy that trained to failure...is Yates, who is the last guy I would use as a example of injury free training

Nothing magical happens at the failure point but saying only Yates trained to failure? Have you seen Branch train? Coleman? Based on the videos I've seen these two guys trained beyond failure from the very first rep a lot of times! Using entirely too heavy weights to perform even a single "correct" rep. Yates execution was very precise and correct, not cheated and bounced from the first rep like so many others'. And Branch tore many muscles, Coleman had tons of small tears. That Yates had more severe injuries wasn't because he was more reckless and trained "heavier" and to failure. He was just unlucky, less injury resistant. Had Yates trained like Coleman he might have never even made it to the pros.

Chick

  • The Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12899
  • sometimes you get the elevator, somtimes the shaft
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2009, 11:14:41 AM »
Nothing magical happens at the failure point but saying only Yates trained to failure? Have you seen Branch train? Coleman? Based on the videos I've seen these two guys trained beyond failure from the very first rep a lot of times! Using entirely too heavy weights to perform even a single "correct" rep. Yates execution was very precise and correct, not cheated and bounced from the first rep like so many others'. And Branch tore many muscles, Coleman had tons of small tears. That Yates had more severe injuries wasn't because he was more reckless and trained "heavier" and to failure. He was just unlucky, less injury resistant. Had Yates trained like Coleman he might have never even made it to the pros.

HUH?

Mr Nobody

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40197
  • Falcon gives us new knowledge every single day.
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2009, 11:19:30 AM »
Nothing magical happens at the failure point but saying only Yates trained to failure? Have you seen Branch train? Coleman? Based on the videos I've seen these two guys trained beyond failure from the very first rep a lot of times! Using entirely too heavy weights to perform even a single "correct" rep. Yates execution was very precise and correct, not cheated and bounced from the first rep like so many others'. And Branch tore many muscles, Coleman had tons of small tears. That Yates had more severe injuries wasn't because he was more reckless and trained "heavier" and to failure. He was just unlucky, less injury resistant. Had Yates trained like Coleman he might have never even made it to the pros.
X2 Mentzer never had injuries as I recall, its all about form and drugs allow you to push beyond your limits as well.

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14916
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2009, 11:35:56 AM »
HUH?

Meaning they couldn't even perform ONE SINGLE "correct" rep with the weight they chose. Too heavy. So there won't be a clear "failure point" because the set starts out with cheating and just progresses with increased breakdown of form as they tire.

Think of Coleman doing T-bar rows. Did he train to failure? Maybe not in the traditional sense because it's just an ugly display of heaving the weight using every muscle in your body and just cheating more and more. It's beyond failure from the first rep!  :D

bic_staedtler

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1209
  • That is all.
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2009, 11:45:53 AM »
Chick, would you agree with something that I've realized over the last decade of training...that;

Most exercises are no better than others so long as they target the same muscle area, but the one that fits your body type/training style will be the 'best' one to use?  

I haven't touched barbells for biceps in years...just dumbells, yet my arms are a good size.  Ditto with triceps; no skullcrushers here, as they aggrevate my elbows...but dumbell extensions get the job done pain free (in the joints, that is).

As far as squats go, I've tried to do leg presses exclusively but sometimes I prefer the extra benefits of squats as they target more of the body (lower back especially)...that said, do I think squats build better QUADS than leg presses?  I don't think they do, for me anyway.

Again...I've found through trial and error that the 'best' exercise for any given body part is the one that allows you to: train the target area with the required intensity, fit your body type/training style so as not to cause excessive joint pain.  

The only injury I've had was the result of too much weight doing two-bench dips...an exercise that, before the injury, was a great way to finish a triceps workout.  Unfortunately, not anymore.  That's probably the hardest lesson to learn...how far to go without going too far.  That day, even though I was capable of lifting the weight, I was too lean to push my joints that far.  I'm not sure that I could have seen the injury coming; but I now have a better idea how to prevent it happening again.  If you're precontest lean, DON'T go stupid heavy...even if you can, it may affect you in the long run.








Ex Coelis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8075
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #105 on: December 29, 2009, 11:51:04 AM »
Bob still has much of his original hair

The Wizard of Truth

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9540
  • Fallen Angel
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2009, 11:59:16 AM »
Bob,will i become a pro bodybuilder?

Saxon

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1751
  • Heavy Metal Thunder
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2009, 12:03:02 PM »
Bob,will i become a pro bodybuilder?

Start your own federation...simples!

Aerian

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1635
  • "Yumm yumm give me some"
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #108 on: December 29, 2009, 01:26:31 PM »
Meaning they couldn't even perform ONE SINGLE "correct" rep with the weight they chose. Too heavy. So there won't be a clear "failure point" because the set starts out with cheating and just progresses with increased breakdown of form as they tire.

Think of Coleman doing T-bar rows. Did he train to failure? Maybe not in the traditional sense because it's just an ugly display of heaving the weight using every muscle in your body and just cheating more and more. It's beyond failure from the first rep!  :D

I dont agree with this at all.  To say that Coleman couldnt do 1 correct rep with the weight he used in videos is ridiculous.  I would say Yates was more careless then Ronnie.  Taking sets way past the effective point.
Wait for it....

Van_Bilderass

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14916
  • "Don't Try"
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2009, 01:36:22 PM »
I dont agree with this at all.  To say that Coleman couldnt do 1 correct rep with the weight he used in videos is ridiculous.  I would say Yates was more careless then Ronnie.  Taking sets way past the effective point.

What do you mean by "way past the effective point"? Maybe a slight touch from his partner on the last rep or two is way past the effective point? Dorian did deadlifts with 440lbs max, Coleman did deads with 800lbs. Was Yates that much weaker or was he just way more careful?

Have you seen Coleman do the t-bar rows for example?

See at 3:20. Don't know if that was even the peak set but it's leg drive and then meeting the weight with the chest. See the squats a 4:30. Does it look like he's in full control of the weight?



Here's an even better example at 0:30


WillGrant

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21058
  • Ron is Watching
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2009, 01:41:00 PM »
I dont agree with this at all.  To say that Coleman couldnt do 1 correct rep with the weight he used in videos is ridiculous.  I would say Yates was more careless then Ronnie.  Taking sets way past the effective point.
lol coleman trains with the most reckless of form , it works for him but if "most" were to try they would rupture and tear muscles left and right..Dorian trained with quite decent form and used to lighten the weight if he thought his form was getting to sloppy.

mr.turbo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4617
  • Team Freedom
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2009, 01:48:19 PM »
FYI

If you look at the upper thigh development of guys who don't squat (yates etc.) it looks odd, stringy and doesn't flow.  Just because judges don't comment on it doesn't mean it's not there. I'm surprised yates doesn't get called out for this hole more often.  The upper quads looks real funny next to the guys he's "beating"... :o

You may notice certain irregularities in the quads of other anti-squat advocates.  As a matter of respect those fellows will remain nameless. 

Have a nice day.

8)
"

Mr Nobody

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 40197
  • Falcon gives us new knowledge every single day.
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #112 on: December 29, 2009, 01:52:41 PM »
lol coleman trains with the most reckless of form , it works for him but if "most" were to try they would rupture and tear muscles left and right..Dorian trained with quite decent form and used to lighten the weight if he thought his form was getting to sloppy.
X2

WillGrant

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21058
  • Ron is Watching
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #113 on: December 29, 2009, 02:01:09 PM »
FYI

If you look at the upper thigh development of guys who don't squat (yates etc.) it looks odd, stringy and doesn't flow.  Just because judges don't comment on it doesn't mean it's not there. I'm surprised yates doesn't get called out for this hole more often.  The upper quads looks real funny next to the guys he's "beating"... :o

You may notice certain irregularities in the quads of other anti-squat advocates.  As a matter of respect those fellows will remain nameless. 

Have a nice day.

8)
Yates was a squatter.

Have a nice day

mr.turbo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4617
  • Team Freedom
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #114 on: December 29, 2009, 02:15:43 PM »
Yates was a squatter.

Have a nice day

(according to DORIAN YATES: December 26th, 2009, 09:11 AM)

"I didnt do either freeweight squat or bench past my first few years of training as i found i goyt better results from other movements and deadlift..."

http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?p=1801587

 ???

"

DroppingPlates

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 49987
  • Team Pocahontas
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #115 on: December 29, 2009, 02:18:45 PM »
(according to DORIAN YATES: December 26th, 2009, 09:11 AM)

"I didnt do either freeweight squat or bench past my first few years of training as i found i goyt better results from other movements and deadlift..."

http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?p=1801587

 ???



He did them in a smith machine

nolotil

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 823
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2009, 03:38:43 PM »
short term pulse of GH and testosterone due to training doensnt effect growth. heavy squats dont give you bigger arms by an overall hormone pulse.

as for free weight vs machine....it depends..some machines are good some not (depends on person too,)..some will have problems doing squats safely due to their structure many wont,, and like i said you have to factor in strength level and drug use into the equation too.  anything that lets you use progressively heavier tension onm the muscle will grow you

 

nolotil

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 823
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2009, 03:44:36 PM »
Meaning they couldn't even perform ONE SINGLE "correct" rep with the weight they chose. Too heavy. So there won't be a clear "failure point" because the set starts out with cheating and just progresses with increased breakdown of form as they tire.

Think of Coleman doing T-bar rows. Did he train to failure? Maybe not in the traditional sense because it's just an ugly display of heaving the weight using every muscle in your body and just cheating more and more. It's beyond failure from the first rep!  :D

good view point, i think colemans training style (alot of momentum and partial bouncy reps can create high tension but also increased risk of injury). i agree i dont think dorians training is inherently more dangerous than colemans...some people just have different tolerance for abuse. also these guys are on such amount of drugs i dont think so many conclsuions can be drawn from their training although yes its popular to analyse these guys working routines, i have done it too but generalizing from this analysis doesnt necessarily say so much.

thor_odin

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 174
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2009, 04:36:06 PM »
Why on earth are you asking Chic's advice?. Pros don't know how to train and a lot of them are on hormones before they have ever even lifted a weight. Safe bet that he's probably never trained hard or heavy in his whole life. His fake muscles come from steroids and you don't even need to work out when you are on them. Steroids will make you bigger and stronger without doing anything at all but they don't want you to know that. How do you think female bodybuilders get so muscular with their puny workouts and I for one have yet to see a prize bull working out in a gymnasium.

Chick

  • The Pros
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12899
  • sometimes you get the elevator, somtimes the shaft
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #119 on: December 29, 2009, 08:55:00 PM »
Why on earth are you asking Chic's advice?. Pros don't know how to train and a lot of them are on hormones before they have ever even lifted a weight. Safe bet that he's probably never trained hard or heavy in his whole life. His fake muscles come from steroids and you don't even need to work out when you are on them. Steroids will make you bigger and stronger without doing anything at all but they don't want you to know that. How do you think female bodybuilders get so muscular with their puny workouts and I for one have yet to see a prize bull working out in a gymnasium.

LOL

tom joad

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4821
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2009, 09:57:14 PM »
LOL

Bob, what could lifetime naturals learn from your (and other pros') training experiences when most of you guys don't even bother lifting unless your on the sauce?

WillGrant

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21058
  • Ron is Watching
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2009, 12:05:07 AM »
Bob, what could lifetime naturals learn from your (and other pros') training experiences when most of you guys don't even bother lifting unless your on the sauce?
Get on the juice asap if you wana look like a BB  :D

ChristopherA

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7074
  • Getbig!
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2009, 02:02:28 AM »
The bench press is one of the most overrated exercises in the gym. It screws your front delts and there are much saver and more effective exercises like dumbell presses and wide dips.
I dont dought for some people the bench is a godsend, packing on muscle. But when you're 6'2" with a wingspan of someone 6'5" bench sucks. I get no pump in my chest  and almost luckily I hurt my shoulder doing them probably only a couple years into training. It was a blessing  because I scrapped them for incline bar or DBs. Even though I am tall its more my torso than legs, so squats are out too. I have always loved deadlifts though I dont do them much because I dont want to widen my waist. Theres plenty of people who the big 3 dont work for. For some because they are lazy but others body dont favor the exercise. You do everything BESIDES the big 3 and take it to the max you will grow. A sidenote I hate little 5'5" bench heros who have t-rex arms. Thats ok they have a big bench but I gotta bend down to talk to them.

ag2

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 709
  • President of the Peanut gallery.
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2009, 08:02:45 AM »
LOL

Bob, what is your take on smith machine incline and flat bench?

El Diablo Blanco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31826
  • Nom Nom Nom Nom
Re: Bob Cicherillo question...
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2009, 08:11:23 AM »
This whole thread highlights why Chick has never won a major show.  Simple Taking heavy doses of drugs and doing pussy workouts will not make you a top tier pro.  Guys like Chick, Tamali and even Wolf now are in that class.  Afraid of pain and blood and pushing themselves to the ultimate limit to succeed.