Bob Cicherillo question...

[gcb]

Powerlifters don't go to failure and they lift way heavier weights.

[A2daMIR]

I think you mean this article   (sorry for my bad Chick imitation)
(source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KFY/is_5_21/ai_103376701/)


Butchering sacred cows: some basic exercises are basically wrong. Here's why, and what alternatives you should use for better results

 You don't have to do anything. Ther goons in the gym say you have to train balls-to-the-wall heavy on quats, bench presses and other "compound classics" if you want to be a hardcore bodybuilder. That's a load of B.s. You don't have to do anything except what works best for you, and the surprising truth is may free-weight basics are not the safest or most efficient lifts for buildng muscle mass.

Because I've been training for 25 years, people assume I work out old-school style with mostly barbells and compound lifts. It's true that I trained that way for many years. However, I've also learned a few things over the past quarter century, and I've readily adapted to the advantages of modern bodybuilding. Most important, I've figured out what works, what doesn't and what can be improved. If you think weight training has sacred cows that are exempt from criticism, stop reading now, because some of them are about to become hamburger.

SQUATS

Let's start at the top, with the so-called "King of All Exercises." For advanced bodybuilders, this is more like the "King of All Back Breakers and Butt Builders." Like most trainers, I did squats for years, and I'm of two minds regarding their effectiveness. It's a good fundamental exercise for some, if kept in check. The problem is that too few people keep them in check, and many people just aren't built for them.

Along with the bench press and the deadlift, the squat is one lift in which guys really pile on the plates for low reps. The bottom line is if you're always going heavy, eventually there will be a straw that breaks the camel's or, in this case, the bodybuilder's back. It happened to me. Heavy squatting was the primary reason I had lower back surgery in 1998.

Consider what you're doing when squatting. You have a heavy weight on your traps, sometimes more than 500 pounds, pressing down on your spine. Then you bend down, putting your lumbar region in a vulnerable position, not to mention the strain on your knees and even your shoulders, from holding the bar. All of this is compounded if you're my height or taller. If you're Lee Priest or Dexter Jackson, you can do squats all day with good form and little discomfort, but if you're over 5'10", it's tough to do them without bending forward too far.

Gym rats blindly worship at the squat racks because that's how it's always been. The funny thing is I know guys who've been training more than 10 years who still squat because they say they need the legs. They haven't figured out that if it hasn't worked by now, it ain't gonna work. The longer you've been training, the less you should squat. In addition to the injury factor, once you have a foundation of mass, the squat can harm your appearance. It expands your hip flexors, glutes and upper thighs, which aren't typically areas in which experienced trainers need more size. Over time, I think squats outlive their usefulness.

Instead of traditional squats, I do h0ack squats and leg presses. They're better than squats for muscling up the quads and targeting different areas, and they're safer, too. I believe in full ranges of motion, all the way down and all the way up for these movements, and for leg presses, I take a relatively wide stance. The taller you are, the wider your stance should be.

PRESSES BEHIND THE NECK

Unlike squats, I have absolutely nothing positive to say about presses behind the neck. No one should ever do them. They combine my two least-favorite factors: a straight bar and a behind-the-neck motion. Anything behind the neck is the worst: presses, chins and pulldowns. It's an unnatural and unsafe position. You may be able to get away with these as a beginner. Kids tell me "I do presses behind the neck, and my shoulders don't bother me," and I always say "Talk to me in five years if you're still doing them."

Instead of these, I recommend military (front) presses or dumbbell presses, both of which work front delts much more safely. I never lower the weight below chin level. You'll notice this is about as far as you can go without your shoulders dropping. All that's happening between your chin and your chest is an upper-pec movement and a whole lot of potential damage. I usually perform military presses on a Smith machine, which lets me roll my palms back and find a more natural position. Dumbbells allow for greater freedom of motion, and I typically do partial Arnold presses, starting with my palms facing each other and twisting my wrists on the way up so my palms face forward.

BARBELL ROWS

I can't think of a good reason to do bent barbell rows.

Again, you're using a straight bar, which forces your hands and, consequently, your arms into a somewhat, unnatural position, and again your lower back is vulnerable. T-bar rows are better because you stand more upright, putting less strain on your lumbar region, and you can usually take an angled or parallel grip. One-arm rows are also good, as long as you don't go too heavy. The best thing for those of us who've had back problems is a rowing machine with a chest pad. That will take virtually all the lower-back action out of the movement.

 DEADLIFIS

I won't condemn deads and say you should never do them, but too many people end up gaining little muscle for all the straining they do and the injury risks they take. Supposed bodybuilders load up a bar just to see how much they can lift. That's not bodybuilding and, as with squats, many guys just aren't built for deadlifts (the ideal shape is short with relatively long arms), so this becomes a strength exercise that hits the glutes and legs as much as the back.

Instead of traditional deadlifts, I prefer top deadlifts. You can do these on a Smith machine or a power rack. Set the safety catch or support bar so the bar can't go below knee-level. That way you focus mostly on your back instead of legs, hips and glutes, and you reduce the risk of injury.

BENCH PRESSES

For some odd reason, people take it personally if I say the bench press sucks. They consider it blasphemy. "You've got to bench to be hardcore," they say. I hate to break it to them, but most pro bodybuilders haven't done free-weight bench presses in years. Are you going to tell Tom Prince or Jay Cutler they're not hardcore because they don't bench?

The problem is that unless you keep your shoulders down and back and maintain the precise groove for every rep, free-weight bench presses place too much pressure on shoulders. Again, the taller you are, the more this is amplified. There's also the possibility that you'll suffer a pec tear by doing bench presses. Think of how often you hear about guys popping pecs while benching and how rarely pecs are torn doing anything else. I need two hands to count the number of top bodybuilders whose careers have been shortened by bench-press injuries.

People bench primarily to answer the question, "What do you bench?" That's not enough of a reason for me. I'd much rather do what's best for building pec mass, and there are at least 10 exercises superior to free-weight benches, starting with incline presses, machine bench presses and dumbbell flyes. As with shoulder presses, I avoid the lowest position in any chest press.

BARBELL CURLS

Here's another exercise I never do, and it's all because of that devil's tool -- the straight bar. Straight bars put too much pressure on inner elbows. If you have elbow pain, chances are it's from a straight bar. Using a straight bar to perform curls forces you into an unnatural position. If you stand talking to someone, your knuckles or palms aren't facing forward unless you're planning to clock him or beg for money. The natural position for hands at your sides is with your palms facing each other, and the natural position for a curl is for the thumbs to come up higher than the pinkies, which a cambered bar approximates.

Instead of barbell curls, I do cambered-bar curls in most biceps workouts. There are many other curling lifts that I like, and I'm a big advocate of workout variety, but I'll single out dumbbell preacher curls as an excellent exercise. Dumbbell preachers both restrict your movement (by bracing your arms against a bench) and provide for more freedom, as you can rotate your wrists.

 LYING TRICEPS EXTENSIONS

Here's a lift you should avoid just based on its nickname: skull crushers. That's taking "no pain, no gain" way too far. Again, lying triceps extensions are typically done with the dreaded straight bar. Worst of all, each rep starts and stops with your head as the base. That's not good, at least not for those of us who like our heads. If you want to do a two-hand free-weight extension, do French presses (while seated, lower the bar behind your head), which at least won't bounce off your forehead, and always use a cambered bar. While we're on the subject of triceps, don't use a straight bar for pushdowns, either; use an angled bar or rope instead. Have I gotten across the message to avoid straight bars?

MODERN ADVANTAGES The common link among all the classic movements I dislike is that they were invented a hundred years ago before anyone had much knowledge of training, and they were just making it up as they went along. You don't see anyone doing one-arm kettledrum presses anymore. Other ancient exercises should be obsolete as well. I suppose we could still crank-start our cars, but I prefer to just slip my key in the ignition and turn it on. Trainers need to take advantage of the many modern tools they have at their disposal and not be too concerned about what others think is "hardcore."

You can be hardcore with Nautilus, Hammer Strength, Strive or whatever the latest computer designed contraption is. Why not incorporate as many tools as you can? Too many guys get this ridiculous "hardcore" mentality, which ends up limiting their muscle gains. There is no rule that the more noise you make or the faster you drop the weight the quicker you'll grow, and there's no rule that you have to do certain exercises just because they've been around since the Sig Klein era It's a new millennium. Training hardcore today doesn't mean limiting ourselves to the same movements our great-grandfathers performed. It means having the stones to say there are no sacred cows in bodybuilding, and it means doing only what works best for you to build maximum muscle.

CHICK'S HIT LIST

These are the exercises Bob Cicherillo doesn't like and the alternatives
he recommends.

BODYPART    AVOID                     ALTERNATIVES

Quadriceps  Squats                    Hack squats, leg presses
Upper back  Barbell rows              Machine rows, T-bar rows
            Rear pulldowns            Front pulldowns with a parallel
                                       grip
Chest       Bench presses             Incline presses, machine presses
Lower back  Deadlifts                 Top deadlifts
            Good mornings             Hyperextensions
Shoulders   Presses behind the neck   Smith machine military presses,
                                       dumbbell presses
Triceps     Lying triceps extensions  Cambered-bar French presses
Biceps      Barbell curls             Cambered-bar curls, dumbbell
                                       preacher curls
Abdominals  Situps                    Machine crunches

actually thats a pretty good article. You cant argue with any of his points. i think EVERY bodybuilder agrees that you get better stretch with dumbbells. also the straight bar curls do put too much ressure on the inner part of the elbows AS well as the wrist.

as for Squats, come on, how many topics on GB have been about a skinny twink doing half rep squats loaded with plates who claim they have been lifting for MANY years?

im not so fond of Bob, but you cant argue with 95% of this article.

[nolotil]

actually thats a pretty good article. You cant argue with any of his points. i think EVERY bodybuilder agrees that you get better stretch with dumbbells. also the straight bar curls do put too much ressure on the inner part of the elbows AS well as the wrist.

as for Squats, come on, how many topics on GB have been about a skinny twink doing half rep squats loaded with plates who claim they have been lifting for MANY years?

im not so fond of Bob, but you cant argue with 95% of this article.

yes you can, there is much to write   but bob is right you dont have to squat, deadlift or do bench if ur a bodybuilder. but for many people they are very good exercises. for some not. you also have to think about who your talking about...situation is very different between drug using 280lbs guy who does 500+ in bench press and compare to natural guy who does 275. heavier weight= more risk of injury,. futher; naturals VEry rarely rip muscles...drugs users do more often , due to heavier weights but also other reasons (one is muscle stronger than tendons if u grow/get strong fast). awlays gotta look at specific situation

[Krankenstein]

All Hammer machines have handles that are set to mimic the natural position of the hand/ arm....not sure what machines youre talking about....the straight bar forces your position into a completely UNnatural position, thus the many injuries (especially to the shoulder/ rotator cuff)

I've advocated DB over BB for many years as my many articles would support

Using your previous statement that the "natural" position of the hand is with palms facing one another contradicts your current statement above.  Specifically the HS preacher curl.  Your palms are facing upwards (note: I did not say perpendicular to the floor).  I would like for you to explain how the position of "palms up" is UNnatual for the body.  The very fact that the human body can supinate the hand to that position dictates that it is not UNnatural.  When you supinate the wrist, bicep contraction occurs.  Bob....do you advocate turning of the feet during exercises like leg extensions, leg curls, calf raises? 

[Azn Muscle]

I remember reading that article when it came out.  Very well written in my opinion.

[Chick]

Using your previous statement that the "natural" position of the hand is with palms facing one another contradicts your current statement above.  Specifically the HS preacher curl.  Your palms are facing upwards (note: I did not say perpendicular to the floor).  I would like for you to explain how the position of "palms up" is UNnatual for the body.  The very fact that the human body can supinate the hand to that position dictates that it is not UNnatural.  When you supinate the wrist, bicep contraction occurs.  Bob....do you advocate turning of the feet during exercises like leg extensions, leg curls, calf raises? 

Just because you CAN turn your hand to a position of holding on to a straight bar, doesnt mean you should, or that its natural.  As youre standing, the hands naturally hang at an angle, not like a caveman, or with palms facing outward...as you're positioned on the HS curl machine, your palms face inward toward each other...the more you supinate them outward to a straight bar position, the more UNnatural it is, and the more emphasis is placed on the inner elbow tendon (a common injury to those who do big BB curls...I never said having the palms up was unnatural, you misread what I wrote, or didnt understand it...

As for legs...the same thing applies. Feet should be set in a natural position, toes slightly facing outwards.

[Mr Nobody]

Just because you CAN turn your hand to a position of holding on to a straight bar, doesnt mean you should, or that its natural.  As youre standing, the hands naturally hang at an angle, not like a caveman, or with palms facing outward...as you're positioned on the HS curl machine, your palms face inward toward each other...the more you supinate them outward to a straight bar position, the more UNnatural it is, and the more emphasis is placed on the inner elbow tendon (a common injury to those who do big BB curls...I never said having the palms up was unnatural, you misread what I wrote, or didnt understand it...

As for legs...the same thing applies. Feet should be set in a natural position, toes slightly facing outwards.

I disagree on the curls, supinization with the straight bar attains peak contraction, if you do a concentration curl with a dumbell and turn your pinky finger out toward the shoulder you will feel the contraction difference vs curling inward with index finger, straight bar is best...I agree on the squats.

[Chick]

I disagree on the curls, supinization with the straight bar attains peak contraction, if you do a concentration curl with a dumbell and turn your pinky finger out toward the shoulder you will feel the contraction difference vs curling inward with index finger, straight bar is best...I agree on the squats.

Like I wrote, its going TOO HEAVY with that positioning that will lead to the inner/ outer elbow killing you...and most guys looking for big arms are going to go right to the BB curl as their means to an end. If you want peak contraction, then you go lighter and use a preacher style machine, or concentration curl with a lighter DB

[BIG ACH]

I actually cannot supinate my wrists all the way out, so I have never in my life done barbell curls, always relied on cambered bars, dumbells, and machine.   I watch people do straight bar curls and I just wonder how on earth they are doing it completely pain-free.

Bob, I want to go back to the test/hormone release incurred by exercises like squats, do you think you can have similar effects when doing leg presses or hack squats?  It seems that everything written argues that squats are an absolute MUST, and its become so ingrained in our minds since this is all we've been reading from the first day we start bodybuilding.

[Chick]

I actually cannot supinate my wrists all the way out, so I have never in my life done barbell curls, always relied on cambered bars, dumbells, and machine.   I watch people do straight bar curls and I just wonder how on earth they are doing it completely pain-free.

Bob, I want to go back to the test/hormone release incurred by exercises like squats, do you think you can have similar effects when doing leg presses or hack squats?  It seems that everything written argues that squats are an absolute MUST, and its become so ingrained in our minds since this is all we've been reading from the first day we start bodybuilding.

The reason squats have that stigma, is simply for the fact that they are one of (if not THEE) hardest exercises...you would achieve the same with a DL, Leg Press, Hacks....whats funny, is the minute release of any test/ hormones being attributed to anything significant.

As for straight bar curls...you are correct...and the bigger you get, the harder they are. You'll notice most guys with any type of build, as they come up with the bar, their pinky and finger next to it, arent even on the bar...

[Mr Nobody]

Like I wrote, its going TOO HEAVY with that positioning that will lead to the inner/ outer elbow killing you...and most guys looking for big arms are going to go right to the BB curl as their means to an end. If you want peak contraction, then you go lighter and use a preacher style machine, or concentration curl with a lighter DB

If you do strict form no cheating no weight is too heavy the straight bar provides natural supinization.

[Chick]

If you do strict form no cheating no weight is too heavy the straight bar provides natural supinization.

Riiiight....

[BIG ACH]

The reason squats have that stigma, is simply for the fact that they are one of (if not THEE) hardest exercises...you would achieve the same with a DL, Leg Press, Hacks....whats funny, is the minute release of any test/ hormones being attributed to anything significant.

As for straight bar curls...you are correct...and the bigger you get, the harder they are. You'll notice most guys with any type of build, as they come up with the bar, their pinky and finger next to it, arent even on the bar...

I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly.  What you are saying is that any hormone release when training is not significant enough to choose one exercise over the other?

[Chick]

I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly.  What you are saying is that any hormone release when training is not significant enough to choose one exercise over the other?

That is correct, sir...negligable at best

[The True Adonis]

That is correct, sir...negligable at best

Advice to Chick:  Burn your Ed Hardy Shirts/Affliction/Famous Stars and Straps.

Other than that, carry on.

[BIG ACH]

That is correct, sir...negligable at best

Thanks Bob, this helpful information.  Something to think about when i'm in the gym!


Off-topic Question for you,  I may be moving to NYC next year are there any good gyms that you recommend over there?  Only place I ever traind at there was Golds Gym in Time Square - and that was... well.... interesting!  

[Chick]

Thanks Bob, this helpful information.  Something to think about when i'm in the gym!


Off-topic Question for you,  I may be moving to NYC next year are there any good gyms that you recommend over there?  Only place I ever traind at there was Golds Gym in Time Square - and that was... well.... interesting!  

Depends on where you are...Bob Bonhams Strong and Shapley and  Steve/ Bev Weinbergers Gym are two of the best, whichever you're closer to...

[Chick]

Advice to Chick:  Burn your Ed Hardy Shirts/Affliction/Famous Stars and Straps.

Other than that, carry on.

Why dont you post some pics of yourself ,wearing what you think I should  be wearing to look cool...help me out, Mr. Blackwell

[The True Adonis]

That is correct, sir...negligable at best

Actually that is not entirely true.  If one has not been training for a long period of time, or if their muscle has degenerated due to environmental conditions, different exercises will certainly cause more hormone response than others.

For instance, NASA has tested the efficacy of barbell squats versus leg extensions on returning astronauts and found the hormone response to be varied greatly.

[El Diablo Blanco]

some of you guys can't read.  Bob did not say squats suck.  He stated that they are a bad idea for taller guys and I agree.  Even naturally squatting at my height I cannot help but lean forward.  A long torso doesn't allow you to maintain that natural curve as it would some 5'1" midget who can stay straight throughout.

[BIG ACH]

Depends on where you are...Bob Bonhams Strong and Shapley and  Steve/ Bev Weinbergers Gym are two of the best, whichever you're closer to...

Thanks man, not sure yet about where we will be staying, we were there 2 weeks ago scoping out some areas and then the Blizzard hit, took the Acela back and stood the entire ride between New York and DC!  That was fun!

Will look up those two gyms next time I'm there!

[The True Adonis]

Why dont you post some pics of yourself ,wearing what you think I should  be wearing to look cool...help me out, Mr. Blackwell

Harris Tweed, Pringle Cashmere, Bespoke Kassner with Turnbull and Asser tie.

[BIG ACH]

Harris Tweed, Pringle Cashmere, Bespoke Kassner with Turnbull and Asner tie.

Do they even have bodybuilder sizes in those?  I'm not even that big and I have the hardest time buying a suit!

[Chick]

Actually that is not entirely true.  If one has not been training for a long period of time, or if their muscle has degenerated due to environmental conditions, different exercises will certainly cause more hormone response than others.

For instance, NASA has tested the efficacy of barbell squats versus leg extensions on returning astronauts and found the hormone response to be varied greatly.

Well. most guys training consistantly to get bigger, arent in Zero gravity for extended periods of time...which makes your point negligable...ANYTHING will have a greater impact after doing NOTHING for months

[The True Adonis]

Do they even have bodybuilder sizes in those?  I'm not even that big and I have the hardest time buying a suit!

I am sure Fat people can have them made so a Bodybuilder should have no problem.

I fit perfectly in a 42 or 44 if on a Vintage pattern and have the waist taken in.  Any good tailor should be able to do this.  Also, any custom suit maker can hand-tailor a bespoke suit to your measurements.  Harris Tweed offers this service as well.