Author Topic: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.  (Read 3600 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2009, 09:14:51 PM »
I have the choice to drive a car or not.  I can take the bus, bike, scooter, skatweboard, etc. 

By driving a car, which is a porivelege and for which you have to get a license (which is not a right) I knowingly accept the legal obligations set forth 

Health insurance is completely different. 
So you admit that you don`t mind being FORCED to buy a Private Product that is mandated by your government.  Correct?  That is how I am reading your above statement.

Health Insurance is a privilege in the United States not a right like it SHOULD BE and like it is in the rest of the civil and Industrialized world.

Your argument makes zero sense.

tonymctones

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2009, 09:14:51 PM »
Keep in mind also that we have 2 states that don`t require you to buy Auto Insurance at all and they get along just grand.

The rest of the 48.....Well you can potentially go to jail if you don`t buy a Private Product, mandated by the government.

I find that abhorrent.  Too bad you support this nonsense 333336666.
correct me if im wrong but auto insurance is state mandated correct?

The True Adonis

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2009, 09:16:23 PM »
correct me if im wrong but auto insurance is state mandated correct?
Yep. And with 3333666 blind compliance, he would not mind it a Federal Law I bet.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2009, 09:22:30 PM »
So you admit that you don`t mind being FORCED to buy a Private Product that is mandated by your government.  Correct?  That is how I am reading your above statement.

Health Insurance is a privilege in the United States not a right like it SHOULD BE and like it is in the rest of the civil and Industrialized world.

Your argument makes zero sense.

Only to a person like you who thinks that just because you feel something should be the case that it is so.

There is no right to health care in this country the same way there is no right to drive.  However, you have the choice to drive or not, you dont have the same choice to live or not. 

BTW - are you against having to register your vehicle?

The True Adonis

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2009, 09:31:45 PM »
Only to a person like you who thinks that just because you feel something should be the case that it is so.

There is no right to health care in this country the same way there is no right to drive.  However, you have the choice to drive or not, you dont have the same choice to live or not. 

BTW - are you against having to register your vehicle?
I am against registering my vehicle and I do not do that either.




The True Adonis

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2009, 09:34:07 PM »
Only to a person like you who thinks that just because you feel something should be the case that it is so.

There is no right to health care in this country the same way there is no right to drive.  However, you have the choice to drive or not, you dont have the same choice to live or not. 

BTW - are you against having to register your vehicle?
Just admit that you don`t mind the Government mandating that you buy a Private Product from a Private Company, which invalidates and contradicts your earlier statement.

You don`t mind it at all.

24KT

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2009, 05:33:51 AM »
actually obama is furthering the patriot act, and I was against it when bush and congress put it in place and im against it now.


Actually what Obama is doing is tweaking the Patriot Act. He made so secret of his intent to do so throughout his campaign. He is removing stupid useless provisions that serve no purpose, and strengthening other areas that will be useful in detering and preventing acts of terrorism against the US and her citizens.
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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2009, 05:46:12 AM »
LOL Nice try there i dont know if youre uninformed or willingly overlooking the facts...both of these ppl were arrested or taken into custody in a way that they were given their civilian rights granted by the constitution to ppl arrested by US authorities and by doing this followed due process.

Enemy combatants are not provided these rights or they were not at the time of their detainment. This fact opens the doors to appeals on the violation of due process as they were not read their miranda rights before interrogation, the interrogation techniques are outlawed by civilian rights etc....

Let me ask you this since again I dont know if youre uninformed or willingly overlooking the facts. Do you think it is ok for obama to violate the civil rights of its citizens?


Obama was NOT the one in charge when they were arrested, not mirandized, or interrogated in a manner ruled illegal. He was not the one who violated the rights you and the Supreme court claim they have. So now that this is fait accomplis, ...what do you propose? That they simply be released? Are you advocating their release, so that the guilty can go back to committing acts of terror? Are you advocating their release so that those who were nothing more than farmers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, who as a result of both their treatment, and their confinement among terrorists have become radicalized? If they are convicted and file appeals as a result, ...so be it. Let them file their appeals. In the meantime, ...they will be on ice, unable to plan and execute further terror attacks. They might find themselves quite occupied with simply staying alive within the prison system, ...and if they don't survive prison life, ...it stops their appeals dead in their tracks doesn't it? 
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24KT

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2009, 06:00:32 AM »
Only to a person like you who thinks that just because you feel something should be the case that it is so.

There is no right to health care in this country the same way there is no right to drive.  However, you have the choice to drive or not, you dont have the same choice to live or not.  

BTW - are you against having to register your vehicle?

All the more reason why healthcare should be a right!
As it stands presently, ...insurance bureaucrats make the choice of whether you live or die,
...based on nothing more than a stroke of the pen and a desire for corporate profits and bigger bonuses.

States mandate auto-insurance to fiscally protect themselves and others in the event that you have an accident.
Likewise, the mandate of maintaining health insurance is for the same reason; to protect the state and others from the associated costs of your healthcare which is an inevitability. Healthcare is something we ALL require at some point or other. Sorry 333386, you appear to simply be arguing in order to be argumentative, because as usual, you are not making any sense whatsoever. I understand you have issues with the way healthcare is being reformed, and many of those issues are legitimate, however, universal healthcare is a necessity for the long term well being of the USA, and imo, a single payer system should be the way to go. as it stands, this healthcare bill is less than ideal, ...but it is a darn sight better than the status quo. In years to come, we will hopefully see improvements as the tweaks & bugs are worked out.
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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2009, 06:14:04 AM »
All the more reason why healthcare should be a right!
As it stands presently, ...insurance bureaucrats make the choice of whether you live or die,
...based on nothing more than a stroke of the pen and a desire for corporate profits and bigger bonuses.

States mandate auto-insurance to fiscally protect themselves and others in the event that you have an accident.
Likewise, the mandate of maintaining health insurance is for the same reason; to protect the state and others from the associated costs of your healthcare which is an inevitability. Healthcare is something we ALL require at some point or other. Sorry 333386, you appear to simply be arguing in order to be argumentative, because as usual, you are not making any sense whatsoever. I understand you have issues with the way healthcare is being reformed, and many of those issues are legitimate, however, universal healthcare is a necessity for the long term well being of the USA, and imo, a single payer system should be the way to go. as it stands, this healthcare bill is less than ideal, ...but it is a darn sight better than the status quo. In years to come, we will hopefully see improvements as the tweaks & bugs are worked out.

You are an idiot.The reason that auto insurance is mandated IS NOT to protect you from an accident.Its to protect the person you hit in an accident.Mandating health care is completely different and ,it will be backed up by the courts,unconstitutional.If I don't want to have health insurance,you should have to sign a waiver that you have to pay.Other then that the government has no right to mandate anything of the kind.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2009, 06:20:39 AM »
Requiring Health Insurance Is Not Like Auto  | Print |   E-mail 
Written by Steven J. DuBord     

Tuesday, 15 September 2009 16:25 
________________________ ________________________ _______________________


As President Obama and Democrats in Congress try to build a case for requiring all Americans to purchase health insurance, they have compared it to mandatory auto insurance laws — but the analogy quickly breaks down.

“Unless everybody does their part, many of the insurance reforms we seek, especially requiring insurance companies to cover preexisting conditions, just can't be achieved,” Obama told Congress in his recent address. “That’s why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance — just as most states require you to carry auto insurance.”

The comparison sounds reasonable at first. Most states do require drivers to have auto insurance, and the President simply wants a federal law to do the same for health insurance.

But the first difference is the difference between states requiring only those who drive automobiles to carry auto insurance and Obama’s proposal that would force every single American to buy health insurance. The auto insurance requirement can be avoided by simply not driving a car. This may be an inconvenience, but not driving allows the freedom to avoid purchasing auto insurance. The President’s plan gives no possibility of exemption.
“You can avoid the auto insurance mandate by divesting yourself of a car. The only way to avoid a health insurance mandate is by divesting yourself of a body,” said Cato Institute Director of Health Policy Studies Michael Cannon. Ironically, the only way to escape the proposed health insurance requirement is to cease to be healthy to the point of death.


The second difference is that auto insurance is required primarily to pay for any damages to other persons or property that might result from the driver’s actions. The insurance is only secondarily meant to repair or replace the driver’s vehicle, something the states have no real interest in requiring. In fact, many drivers get by without collision coverage because they are driving an older vehicle that is no longer worth the expense.

“The primary purpose of the auto insurance mandate was to provide financial protection for people that a driver may harm, and not necessarily for the driver himself,” wrote former Department of Health and Human Services officials Peter Urbanowicz and Dennis Smith in a paper for the Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies.

Health insurance, on the other hand, is essentially collision coverage. With cars, it is the old, rusty vehicles that don’t need collision insurance, but with people, it is the young and healthy who don’t necessarily need coverage. Obama would twist things so that those who don’t need the insurance are the ones who pay the burden of insuring everyone else.

The third difference is that auto insurance laws originate at the state level, while Obama is proposing an unprecedented federal law. With state laws, people have the choice of working within their state to change the law, or they may decide to move to another state with less burdensome regulations. Federal laws allow for no escape other than leaving the country.

This brings to mind a 1994 paper prepared by the Congressional Budget Office to address President Bill Clinton’s proposal for a national health insurance mandate. “A mandate requiring all individuals to purchase health insurance would be an unprecedented form of federal action,” the CBO stated.

In fact, the closest comparison the CBO could make was to something that did cause some people to flee the country — the draft: “Federal mandates that apply to individuals as members of society are extremely rare. One example is the requirement that draft-age men register with the Selective Service System. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) is not aware of any others imposed by current federal law.”

So the government wants to make people who don’t purchase health insurance guilty of a federal crime equivalent to draft dodging during a time of war. This is absurd. Can anyone imagine throwing people into America’s already-overcrowded prisons for the federal offense of not buying health insurance and then refusing or being unable to pay the fine?

The federal government exceeded its constitutional limitations in the first place and established the managed-care system that rules America’s healthcare today. Now the federal government is once again proposing more federal power as the answer to problems caused by unrestrained federal power. Americans need to get back in the driver seat by telling their elected officials to avoid colliding with any such repressive reform proposals.

________________________ _______-

Sorry Jag & TA - you liberal dupes are dead wrong on this. 

 

tonymctones

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2009, 07:42:05 AM »
Actually what Obama is doing is tweaking the Patriot Act. He made so secret of his intent to do so throughout his campaign. He is removing stupid useless provisions that serve no purpose, and strengthening other areas that will be useful in detering and preventing acts of terrorism against the US and her citizens.
I dont understand the point of this post, so he is indeed strengthening the patriot act...Im sure you were just as for it when bush was pushing it through congress ??? ::) silver lining jag, silver lining

tonymctones

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2009, 07:51:30 AM »
Obama was NOT the one in charge when they were arrested, not mirandized, or interrogated in a manner ruled illegal. He was not the one who violated the rights you and the Supreme court claim they have. So now that this is fait accomplis, ...what do you propose? That they simply be released? Are you advocating their release, so that the guilty can go back to committing acts of terror? Are you advocating their release so that those who were nothing more than farmers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, who as a result of both their treatment, and their confinement among terrorists have become radicalized? If they are convicted and file appeals as a result, ...so be it. Let them file their appeals. In the meantime, ...they will be on ice, unable to plan and execute further terror attacks. They might find themselves quite occupied with simply staying alive within the prison system, ...and if they don't survive prison life, ...it stops their appeals dead in their tracks doesn't it? 
LOL yet another silver lining, apparently its wrong for them to be detained without trial but if we give them a fake trial with rights that we dont intend to honor, thats ok?  ::)

Look Im all in favor of these ppls "boat sinking" on their way over to the main land or their "plane going down". What I am not in favor of is the manipulation of our civilian legal system the very same one that they try US citizen with.

If they are able to ignore the civil rights of these ppl(which we all agree they shouldnt have) whats to keep them from ignoring the civil rights of actual citizens?

Also these ppl will be segregated jag dont be foolish they will not be in the general population if for nothing else than preventing them from recruiting ppl.

Those who arent obsessed with being a martyr will undoubtedly appeal and on very solid ground with the violation of their due process.

You ask what I think should be done jag as if something need be done, again your falling into the trap of acting simply for the sake of acting think about Iraq, Stimulus bill, Health care bill...these things are what we get when we act just to act.

If you absolutely must take them off gitmo, 2 options try them in military court or black ops prison

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2009, 07:52:24 AM »
I dont understand the point of this post, so he is indeed strengthening the patriot act...Im sure you were just as for it when bush was pushing it through congress ??? ::) silver lining jag, silver lining

Its more double standards from the left.  Typical garbage.  

Straw Man

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2009, 07:56:51 AM »
Serious question.

If the Government can't screen for terrorists that are right under its nose and delivered on a platter, how will it be able to screen for cancer or some other disease when it takes over health care? 

Anyone care to explain that to me?

I'll try to explain it to you son.

First - one has nothing to do with the other

Second - even with a Govt Insurance plan it's still going to be the same private practice doctors doing the work.   

Third - we already have some govt run plans that seem to do it just fine.

Fourthe - there's really no reason to read beyond the first point since your entire premise is dumb as dirt (as usual)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2009, 07:59:28 AM »
I'll try to explain it to you son.

First - one has nothing to do with the other

Second - even with a Govt Insurance plan it's still going to be the same private practice doctors doing the work.   

Third - we already have some govt run plans that seem to do it just fine.

Fourthe - there's really no reason to read beyond the first point since your entire premise is dumb as dirt (as usual)

Oh yeah, Medicare and Medicaid are just great. 

Medicare has 34 trillion in unfunded liabilities and Medicaid has tens of billions in fraud every year. 

Sounds like they are doing a great job Straw. 

24KT

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2009, 08:03:15 AM »
You are an idiot.The reason that auto insurance is mandated IS NOT to protect you from an accident.Its to protect the person you hit in an accident.

No Billy, YOU are the idiot. One with a tremendous comprehension problem. Please show me where I stated that auto insurance is to protect the driver causing the accident.


Quote
Mandating health care is completely different and ,it will be backed up by the courts,unconstitutional.If I don't want to have health insurance,you should have to sign a waiver that you have to pay.Other then that the government has no right to mandate anything of the kind.

That may very well be the case, ...however with the signing of the 'Military Commissions Act', the Constitution was for all intents and purposes made null and void, ...whether that is readily acknowledged or not.

I don't disagree that mandating it's purchase under penalty of imprisonment is a rather bitter pill to swallow. I for one think a single payer option is the best, ...but I didn't get to propose that, and I don't have a say in how your country reforms it's healthcare. I believe that had there not been such a cacophany of stupid ignorant voices, manipulated by the insurance companies, there could have been some real discussions leading to a much better bill than the compromised one we see. Still, it is better than the status quo, ...and there still is much more work to be done to improve healthcare in America.  ;)
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tonymctones

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2009, 08:04:23 AM »
I'll try to explain it to you son.

First - one has nothing to do with the other

Second - even with a Govt Insurance plan it's still going to be the same private practice doctors doing the work.   

Third - we already have some govt run plans that seem to do it just fine.


Fourthe - there's really no reason to read beyond the first point since your entire premise is dumb as dirt (as usual)
and the post office is doing just fine right straw?  ;)

Hedgehog

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2009, 08:06:57 AM »
Serious question.

If the Government can't screen for terrorists that are right under its nose and delivered on a platter, how will it be able to screen for cancer or some other disease when it takes over health care? 

Anyone care to explain that to me?
I don't know. I just now that it works here. The total price for health care is less by all estimates. We don't have the ridiculous lawsuits either.
As empty as paradise

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2009, 08:08:37 AM »
No Billy, YOU are the idiot. One with a tremendous comprehension problem. Please show me where I stated that auto insurance is to protect the driver causing the accident.


That may very well be the case, ...however with the signing of the 'Military Commissions Act', the Constitution was for all intents and purposes made null and void, ...whether that is readily acknowledged or not.

I don't disagree that mandating it's purchase under penalty of imprisonment is a rather bitter pill to swallow. I for one think a single payer option is the best, ...but I didn't get to propose that, and I don't have a say in how your country reforms it's healthcare. I believe that hgad their not been such a cacophany of stupid ignorant voices, manipulated by the insurance companies, there could have been some real discussions leading to a much better bill than the compromised one we see. Still, it is better than the status quo, ...and there still is much more work to be done to improve healthcare in America.  ;)

Jag do you read Huff Post?  They have done great reporting this year on this health care disgrace.

Obama and the Dems are SOLELY responsible for the dirty deals, the mandates, the dirty deal with the drug companies, the lobbying etc.  

You cant blame this on fox, rush, the VRWC, Palin, etc.  

And no, it is not better than the status quo.  It sucks royally on every level for everyone but the drug companies, health care carriers, and no one else.  

24KT

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2009, 08:13:12 AM »

The federal government exceeded its constitutional limitations in the first place and established the managed-care system that rules America’s healthcare today. Now the federal government is once again proposing more federal power as the answer to problems caused by unrestrained federal power. Americans need to get back in the driver seat by telling their elected officials to avoid colliding with any such repressive reform proposals.

Well if you're gonna get back in the driver's seat, ...make sure you're buckled up, and you've got your insurance.  :D
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Straw Man

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2009, 08:13:44 AM »
Oh yeah, Medicare and Medicaid are just great. 

Medicare has 34 trillion in unfunded liabilities and Medicaid has tens of billions in fraud every year. 

Sounds like they are doing a great job Straw. 

I thought you question was about quality of care?

Can't you ever stay focused on your own silly premise?

Go ask your granny if she wants to get rid of her Medicare? She can see whatever doctor she wants, no pre-existing conditions etc...  

The funding problem is a completely differnt issue though completely fixable

Soul Crusher

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2009, 08:17:14 AM »
I thought you question was about quality of care?

Can't you ever stay focused on your own silly premise?

Go ask your granny if she wants to get rid of her Medicare? She can see whatever doctor she wants, no pre-existing conditions etc...  

The funding problem is a completely differnt issue though completely fixable

My question was for those who support govt run health care.  Many on the fring left like yourself, want a govt run system where eseentially doctors work for the govt.  I know we dont have that now, but thats where the left wants to go, govt run and controlled health care. 

And BTW - ask any medical practioner if they think quality will go up with more govt involvement in the system. 

As far as funding goes - what do you suggest?  Let me take a wild guess - tax increases. 

24KT

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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2009, 08:28:04 AM »
I dont understand the point of this post, so he is indeed strengthening the patriot act...Im sure you were just as for it when bush was pushing it through congress ??? ::) silver lining jag, silver lining

There are areas of the patriot Act that do need strengthening, ...other areas that should be scrapped altogether.

No, I was not all for it when Bush was ramming it through. I don't believe there was the threat they claimed there to be. Subsequent actions by the Bush administration and their policies around the world however have given rise to and created very fertile ground for these threats which have grown significantly. A country does need a way to protect itself from it's enemies, ...however, I don't have the solution. I agree with Ron Paul tho when he says a good place to start is to stop fvcking around in the internal affairs of other countries. That won't dissuade the most ardent from their agenda, ...but it will certainly go a long way towards reducing the growing numbers who become radicalized everyday. There can be a balance between protecting the country without riding roughshod over the people, ..if that is indeed the goal.

After watching the insanity of the last 8 years, I'm of the belief that ANYONE given the right circumstances can become passionately radicalized around a cause, ...and I truly fear for your country as certain agendas start to come into play. I fear for my own as well, because I don't want to see American terrorists flooding across our mutual border looking to use Canada as a base camp from which to plan their operations.
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Re: Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2009, 08:36:56 AM »
No Billy, YOU are the idiot. One with a tremendous comprehension problem. Please show me where I stated that auto insurance is to protect the driver causing the accident.


That may very well be the case, ...however with the signing of the 'Military Commissions Act', the Constitution was for all intents and purposes made null and void, ...whether that is readily acknowledged or not.

I don't disagree that mandating it's purchase under penalty of imprisonment is a rather bitter pill to swallow. I for one think a single payer option is the best, ...but I didn't get to propose that, and I don't have a say in how your country reforms it's healthcare. I believe that hgad their not been such a cacophany of stupid ignorant voices, manipulated by the insurance companies, there could have been some real discussions leading to a much better bill than the compromised one we see. Still, it is better than the status quo, ...and there still is much more work to be done to improve healthcare in America.  ;)

You did compare health care to auto insurance.Its an idiotic comparrison.They are not similar in any way.The health care bill has one goal government control over every aspect of out lives,and the ability to tax us to death as the assanine tanning tax has now opened the door to.It has absolutely NOTHING to do with health care,which is why it wont be implemented until 2014 AFTER Obamas second run.