Serious question for anyone supporting Govt run Health Care.

[Straw Man]

My question was for those who support govt run health care.  Many on the fring left like yourself, want a govt run system where eseentially doctors work for the govt.  I know we dont have that now, but thats where the left wants to go, govt run and controlled health care. 

And BTW - ask any medical practioner if they think quality will go up with more govt involvement in the system. 

As far as funding goes - what do you suggest?  Let me take a wild guess - tax increases. 

how about you let me tell you want I want instead of you telling me.

I'd be fine with the following:

1. get rid of the monopolies that health care companies enjoy (still don't understand why either party would have a problem with that)
2. get rid of abusive practices (pre-existing conditions, rescission, etc..)
3. public option for those that can't afford private insurance

as far as I know the current permutation of the two bills don't have any of this stuff (havne't followed all the recent details)

the one thing I think is INSANE is requiring people to purchase private insurance when none of the 3 things above are available.  

The only system that would would work with a required participation would be a puclic system and we're not getting that

[24KT]

LOL yet another silver lining, apparently its wrong for them to be detained without trial but if we give them a fake trial with rights that we dont intend to honor, thats ok? 

Look Im all in favor of these ppls "boat sinking" on their way over to the main land or their "plane going down". What I am not in favor of is the manipulation of our civilian legal system the very same one that they try US citizen with.

You speak of civil rights as sacrosanct, while in the same breath essentially condone mass murder and genocide.
Do you not see the hypocritical, mental, moral, logical, and rational disconnects in your position?  

If they are able to ignore the civil rights of these ppl(which we all agree they shouldnt have) whats to keep them from ignoring the civil rights of actual citizens?

BINGO!!!

Also these ppl will be segregated jag dont be foolish they will not be in the general population if for nothing else than preventing them from recruiting ppl.

perhaps   ...most likely.

Those who arent obsessed with being a martyr will undoubtedly appeal and on very solid ground with the violation of their due process.

Appeals take time, ...during which, they'll be on ice unable to plan and/or execute further acts of terror.

You ask what I think should be done jag as if something need be done, again your falling into the trap of acting simply for the sake of acting think about Iraq, Stimulus bill, Health care bill...these things are what we get when we act just to act.

Action MUST be taken. Gitmo is closing, ...or do you propose closing down Gitmo, ...and leaving them there for Castro to deal with?

If you absolutely must take them off gitmo, 2 options try them in military court or black ops prison

But the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise. Trying them in a black ops prison does far worse than make a mockery of your civilian justice system, ...it makes a mockery of your entire country and what you claim to stand for, ...if that's even possible considering the damage done by the Bush administration

[24KT]

I don't know. I just now that it works here. The total price for health care is less by all estimates. We don't have the ridiculous lawsuits either.

Same thing with Canada as well Hedge.

[Soul Crusher]

how about you let me tell you want I want instead of you telling me.

I'd be fine with the following:

1. get rid of the monopolies that health care companies enjoy (still don't understand why either party would have a problem with that)
2. get rid of abusive practices (pre-existing conditions, rescission, etc..)
3. public option for those that can't afford private insurance

as far as I know the current permutation of the two bills don't have any of this stuff (havne't followed all the recent details)

the one thing I think is INSANE is requiring people to purchase private insurance when none of the 3 things above are available.  

The only system that would would work with a required participation would be a puclic system and we're not getting that

Fair enough.  

While I have always been against the public option, and still am, I simply cant see how they can mandate people carry private insurance without at least having an affordable alternative.

To me, this present situation is just awful since now the carriers have carte blanche to raise premiums to whatever level they like with ZERO cost control or competition.  

[Soul Crusher]

Same thing with Canada as well Hedge.

Jag - how about this gem?  Good job Obama!

[24KT]

My question was for those who support govt run health care.  Many on the fring left like yourself, want a govt run system where eseentially doctors work for the govt.  I know we dont have that now, but thats where the left wants to go, govt run and controlled health care.  

And BTW - ask any medical practioner if they think quality will go up with more govt involvement in the system. 

As far as funding goes - what do you suggest?  Let me take a wild guess - tax increases. 

Up here in Canada, doctors work for their patients, and submit the bills to the government.

As far as funding, ...MY suggestion would be a single payer solution.

[Soul Crusher]

Up here in Canada, doctors work for their patients, and submit the bills to the government.

As far as funding, ...MY suggestion would be a single payer solution.

We already have that in Medicade and you know what the result is - massive waste fraud and abuse. 

[24KT]

You did compare health care to auto insurance.Its an idiotic comparrison.They are not similar in any way.The health care bill has one goal government control over every aspect of out lives,and the ability to tax us to death as the assanine tanning tax has now opened the door to.It has absolutely NOTHING to do with health care,which is why it wont be implemented until 2014 AFTER Obamas second run.

I may have made a comparison between health care and auto insurance, but I believe I was clear on the similarities, as well as the intended purpose of auto insurance. you either did NOT read what I wrote, ...or failed to comprehend what I wrote. Which is it?

As for tanning taxes, I personally don't give a poop about a tanning tax. They can raise it 500% for all I care
One can always go lie out in the sun, ...the vitamin D might do you some good. it'll help protect you from prostate cancer, ...and then too, ...there are always self tanners. C'mon Billy, have you never heard of a tanning spray? When they do away with tax on tampons, then I might consider getting all activist about a tax on the use of a sun tanning bed.  

[Hedgehog]

how about you let me tell you want I want instead of you telling me.

I'd be fine with the following:

1. get rid of the monopolies that health care companies enjoy (still don't understand why either party would have a problem with that)
2. get rid of abusive practices (pre-existing conditions, rescission, etc..)
3. public option for those that can't afford private insurance

as far as I know the current permutation of the two bills don't have any of this stuff (havne't followed all the recent details)

the one thing I think is INSANE is requiring people to purchase private insurance when none of the 3 things above are available.  

The only system that would would work with a required participation would be a puclic system and we're not getting that

A public system is basically where you pay for the health care through your taxes.

But you still have the private doctors, hospitals, et al that carries out the services.

It's just getting rid of the insurance companies and their profit margin basically.

But I guess that is a big no-no.

Remember, Goldman Sachs and several other investment banks are involved in the insurance industry as well.

It's pretty much the same thing.

They're using their influence on these fcuking senators to block any type of action that would cut off their livelihood.

Ben Nelson and Lieberman, and anyone who is opposing the public option but supporting the health care "reform", is a whore owned by the insurance company lobby.

http://www.insurancepuppets.com/puppets/joelieberman

[Soul Crusher]

I may have made a comparison to health care and auto insurance, but I believe I was clear on the similarities, as well as the intended purpose of auto insurance. you either did NOT read what I wrote, ...or failed to comprehend what I wrote. Which is it?

As for tanning taxes, I personally don't give a poop about a tanning tax. They can raise it 500% for all I care
One can always go lie out in the sun, ...the vitamin D might do you some good. it'll help protect you from prostate cancer, ...and then too, ...there are always self tanners. C'mon Billy, have you never heard of a tanning spray? When they do away with tax on tampons, then I might consider getting all activist about a tax on the use of a sun tanning bed.  

The point is the govt is picking winners and losers in the private economy based on lobbying by certain groups with more cash than others.  Its all well and good so long as the target is one you dont like, but when they target your business because some other lobbying group feels your business is no good, then you will understand why many of us are pissed off about this. 

[Soul Crusher]

I may have made a comparison between health care and auto insurance, but I believe I was clear on the similarities, as well as the intended purpose of auto insurance. you either did NOT read what I wrote, ...or failed to comprehend what I wrote. Which is it?

As for tanning taxes, I personally don't give a poop about a tanning tax. They can raise it 500% for all I care
One can always go lie out in the sun, ...the vitamin D might do you some good. it'll help protect you from prostate cancer, ...and then too, ...there are always self tanners. C'mon Billy, have you never heard of a tanning spray? When they do away with tax on tampons, then I might consider getting all activist about a tax on the use of a sun tanning bed.  

The other difference is that the insurance is on the vehicle, not necessailry on the driver.  One can have a drivers' license but not have insurance. 

[24KT]

A public system is basically where you pay for the health care through your taxes.

But you still have the private doctors, hospitals, et al that carries out the services.

It's just getting rid of the insurance companies and their profit margin basically.

But I guess that is a big no-no.

Yep. Private insurance companies will still continue to exist, but their huge profit margins will not.
Up here in Canada, we have all sorts of private health insurance coverage. our single payer system didn't get rid of them. they still exist. They just aren't the money hungry craven vultures like their counterparts south of the 49^th. they can't be, ...because our single payer public option keeps them in check.

Remember, Goldman Sachs and several other investment banks are involved in the insurance industry as well.

It's pretty much the same thing.

They're using their influence on these fcuking senators to block any type of action that would cut off their livelihood.

Ben Nelson and Lieberman, and anyone who is opposing the public option but supporting the health care "reform", is a whore owned by the insurance company lobby.

http://www.insurancepuppets.com/puppets/joelieberman

BINGO!!!

[Soul Crusher]

Yep. Private insurance companies will still continue to exist, but their huge profit margins will not.
Up here in Canada, we have all sorts of private health insurance coverage. our single payer system didn't get rid of them. they still exist. They just aren't the money hungry craven vultures like their counterparts south of the 49^th. they can't be, ...because our single payer public option keeps them in check.

BINGO!!!

I'm against a public option because our country is broke, in massive debt, and we dont have any historical success in public programs containing or restraining costs. 

does that make me a shill for the private insurace companies?

[24KT]

The point is the govt is picking winners and losers in the private economy based on lobbying by certain groups with more cash than others.  Its all well and good so long as the target is one you dont like, but when they target your business because some other lobbying group feels your business is no good, then you will understand why many of us are pissed off about this. 

I understand this point that you're making and I completely agree with it.
Originally it was a proposed tax on plastic surgery, ...and all of Beverly Hills had an inevitable panic attack.
I don't personally dislike sun tanning beds, ...I simply have no use for them. i do see this particular compromise as one that has a lesser impact on the public than the former proposal tho, since there are other viable and less expensive alternatives available to the general public who do make use of tanning beds. I will admit that as a non user, ...I'm not that familiar with tanning beds, and why they are so indispensible and deserving of tax exempt status. Any pasty people here who might care to enlighten me?

[Soul Crusher]

I understand this point that you're making and I completely agree with it.
Originally it was a proposed tax on plastic surgery, ...and all of Beverly Hills had an inevitable panic attack.
I don't personally dislike sun tanning beds, ...I simply have no use for them. i do see this particular compromise as one that has a lesser impact on the public than the former proposal tho, since there are other viable and less expensive alternatives available to the general public who do make use of tanning beds. I will admit that as a non user, ...I'm not that familiar with tanning beds, and why they are so indispensible and deserving of tax exempt status. Any pasty people here who might care to enlighten me?

The merits or lack thereof of tanning is not the point.  Its that one lobbying group, the plastic surgeons that Pelosi, Biden, Kerry, all appear to go to, were pissed off when they were going to get taxed and got these gangsters in DC to target someone else. 

This whole thing is like organized crime. 

[24KT]

I'm against a public option because our country is broke, in massive debt, and we dont have any historical success in public programs containing or restraining costs. 

does that make me a shill for the private insurace companies?

No, ...it makes you  FOOL!
Get your country to stop starting wars all over the planet that you cannot afford mentally, emotionally, spiritually or fiscally, ...and you'll find plenty of money to provide top notch quality healthcare for every man, woman & child in your country without having to come up with another red cent in taxes.

[tonymctones]

You speak of civil rights as sacrosanct, while in the same breath essentially condone mass murder and genocide.
Do you not see the hypocritical, mental, moral, logical, and rational disconnects in your position?  

THERE IS NO WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS WITHOUT BEING HYPOCRITICAL JAG

UNDERSTAND THAT, you are being just as hypocritical as I am, I though am thinking about the CIVIL RIGHTS OF THE US CITIZEN...

Why are they even being tried? b/c liberals feel its not moral to hold someone without trial, so you put on a fake trial and in the process make a mockery of OUR CIVILIAN CIVIL RIGHTS?   please if you dont see the hypocrisy there do us a favor and log off...

My point of view is from the US citizens and through this its to protect OUR CIVILIAN RIGHTS...I dont give 2 shits about those fuktards at gitmo put 2 in their heads and be done with it.

First off I didnt say try them in black ops prison I said black ops prison as in just throw them in there and forget about them.

Second all you feel that trying them in military court would make a mockery of what we stand for, but you dont think that violating civil rights makes a mockery of anything?  

for fucks sake jag quit silver lining shit

[Soul Crusher]

No, ...it makes you  FOOL!
Get your country to stop starting wars all over the planet that you cannot afford mentally, emotionally, spiritually or fiscally, ...and you'll find plenty of money to provide top notch quality healthcare for every man, woman & child in your country without having to come up with another red cent in taxes.

Whether we never start a war again, we have something called a 12.1 trillion dollar debt to deal with as well as 100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities in SS and Medicare to deal with.  

To me, the fool is someone who wants to add to that.  

[24KT]

The merits or lack thereof of tanning is not the point.  Its that one lobbying group, the plastic surgeons that Pelosi, Biden, Kerry, all appear to go to, were pissed off when they were going to get taxed and got these gangsters in DC to target someone else. 

This whole thing is like organized crime. 

Perhaps, ...but the Gambinos have been in charge too long and cost the public too much money and too many lives.
At least with the Bonnanos, they aren't looking to kill the public, ...they just want the money. Soon, we'll have 'The Untouchables' on the job.  

[Hedgehog]

I'm against a public option because our country is broke, in massive debt, and we dont have any historical success in public programs containing or restraining costs. 

does that make me a shill for the private insurace companies?

Of course not.

If the public option just was part of the tax, and meaning something that all Americans would have access to, the total money spent on health care would probably go down.

But at the same time, the tort reform has to be included.

The unwillingness of the elected to get a tort reform through is evidence that they're owned by the legal lobby as well.

BTW, I totally understand your sceptisism about "handing" over the responsibility for something so big to a government that doesn't have a great record exactly.

The way Ben Nelson handled himself and got some kind of deal for Nebraska was another example of disgusting politics.

Ben Nelson is a fcuking disgrace. How the hell would it be if all 50 states would have the same kind of perpetual deals that he brokered?

How about manning up and take responsibility?

A novel idea for that guy I guess.

[Soul Crusher]

Perhaps, ...but the Gambinos have been in charge too long and cost the public too much money and too many lives.
At least with the Bonnanos, they aren't looking to kill the public, ...they just want the money. Soon, we'll have 'The Untouchables' on the job.  

Unreal.  Truly unreal. 

You are blind as a bat.  The organized crime cartel is in the congress and senate.  you blame insurance companies when the real fault here is the fedzilla.   

 

[Soul Crusher]

Of course not.

If the public option just was part of the tax, and meaning something that all Americans would have access to, the total money spent on health care would probably go down.

But at the same time, the tort reform has to be included.

The unwillingness of the elected to get a tort reform through is evidence that they're owned by the legal lobby as well.

BTW, I totally understand your sceptisism about "handing" over the responsibility for something so big to a government that doesn't have a great record exactly.

The way Ben Nelson handled himself and got some kind of deal for Nebraska was another example of disgusting politics.

Ben Nelson is a fcuking disgrace. How the hell would it be if all 50 states would have the same kind of perpetual deals that he brokered?

How about manning up and take responsibility?

A novel idea for that guy I guess.

Dont forget Landrieu's 300 million dollar deal as well. 

If this plan was go good, why did they have to spend billions bribing senators like this?

[24KT]

THERE IS NO WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS WITHOUT BEING HYPOCRITICAL JAG

Well I'm glad you realize that. Your boy left a real fvckacta mess didn't he?

UNDERSTAND THAT, you are being just as hypocritical as I am, I though am thinking about the CIVIL RIGHTS OF THE US CITIZEN...

You should understand that as long as you can choose to be selective about people, ...it is only a small stone's throw away from being selective about which US citizens are afforded civil rights.

Why are they even being tried? b/c liberals feel its not moral to hold someone without trial, so you put on a fake trial and in the process make a mockery of OUR CIVILIAN CIVIL RIGHTS?   please if you dont see the hypocrisy there do us a favor and log off...

Who said anything about a fake trial? As for your civilian rights, ...or your civilian justice system, ...there has been plenty of precedent long before this that has made a mockery of it. Wake up!

My point of view is from the US citizens and through this its to protect OUR CIVILIAN RIGHTS...I dont give 2 shits about those fuktards at gitmo put 2 in their heads and be done with it.

My point of view is from that of a human being.

First off I didnt say try them in black ops prison I said black ops prison as in just throw them in there and forget about them.

   Why how very Saddam Hussein of you. lol. And that doesn't make a mockery of the USA how?
The days of the Bastille and the Chateau Dieffe's of the world are long gone, ...or at least should be.
And look at the mess the existence of those two institutions led to. OK one is fictional, ...but you get my point.

Second all you feel that trying them in military court would make a mockery of what we stand for, but you dont think that violating civil rights makes a mockery of anything?  

for fucks sake jag quit silver lining shit

You say I'm silver lining this I'm not. I'm facing reality. And I realize you have a President in place at the moment who realizes where the buck stops and is at least willing to take the bull by the horns. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. And cutting & running makes an even bigger mockery of you

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If they are not POWs you can't try them in a military court.
It's a fvckacta mess, part of the legacy Bush left for your country. Obama is simply trying to clean it up.
There is no extricating yourself from this easily. And there's no way to come out of this smelling like roses. You can't. Trials in civilian court appear to the Obama administration as the best way to deal with the situation, so that's what they are doing. Or do you advocate the Bush method of doing nothing but release them en masse, empowering the guilty ones to commit further acts of terror?

[24KT]

Whether we never start a war again, we have something called a 12.1 trillion dollar debt to deal with as well as 100 Trillion in unfunded liabilities in SS and Medicare to deal with.  

To me, the fool is someone who wants to add to that.  

Oh don't worry about that 12.1 trillion. The way the USD is going to be devalued...
that debt will be worth only about 12 cents in no time at all.    Hang onto your hat, ...it's gonna be a bumpy ride!

[tonymctones]

Well I'm glad you realize that. Your boy left a real fvckacta mess didn't he?

You should understand that as long as you can choose to be selective about people, ...it is only a small stone's throw away from being selective about which US citizens are afforded civil rights.

Who said anything about a fake trial? As for your civilian rights, ...or your civilian justice system, ...there has been plenty of precedent long before this that has made a mockery of it. Wake up!

My point of view is from that of a human being.

   Why how very Saddam Hussein of you. lol. And that doesn't make a mockery of the USA how?
The days of the Bastille and the Chateau Dieffe's of the world are long gone, ...or at least should be.
And look at the mess the existence of those two institutions led to. OK one is fictional, ...but you get my point.

You say I'm silver lining this I'm not. I'm facing reality. And I realize you have a President in place at the moment who realizes where the buck stops and is at least willing to take the bull by the horns. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. And cutting & running makes an even bigger mockery of you

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If they are not POWs you can't try them in a military court.
It's a fvckacta mess, part of the legacy Bush left for your country. Obama is simply trying to clean it up.
There is no extricating yourself from this easily. And there's no way to come out of this smelling like roses. You can't.
Trials in civilian court appear to the Obama administration as the best way to deal with the situation, so that's what they are doing. Or do you advocate the Bush method of doing nothing but release them en masse, empowering the guilty ones to commit further acts of terror?

yup bush fucked up and barry is fucking up too, You seem to want to condemn bush yet pardon barry, why is that jag?

"You should understand that as long as you can choose to be selective about people, ...it is only a small stone's throw away from being selective about which US citizens are afforded civil rights."


LOL sorry sweet pea but the US constitution and the Civil rights that it gives are for US citizens I didnt make the distinction the constitution did. I am trying to follow the constitution so that this breach wont be repeated  on the ppl it was meant to protect.   It was never meant to protect foreign terrorist  

"You should understand that as long as you can choose to be selective about people, ...it is only a small stone's throw away from being selective about which US citizens are afforded civil rights."

I guess that makes it ok now?   2 wrongs apparently make a right Ill remember that next time a rep gets in and you bitch about something they are doing...

"You say I'm silver lining this I'm not. I'm facing reality. And I realize you have a President in place at the moment who realizes where the buck stops and is at least willing to take the bull by the horns. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. And cutting & running makes an even bigger mockery of you"

LOL he doesnt realize the buck stops with him if he did he and you wouldnt bring bush up every other speech or post  

by obama trying this ppl in civilian court he is creating a bigger mess than he is dealing with jag. Whats the worst that happens if he keeps gitmo open? whats the worst that happens if he transfers them to another black ops prison?

well by doing this he violates civil rights, opens the doors to massive appeals on LEGITIMATE GROUNDS and makes a mockery of the US legal system...

nobody said it was easy obama knew that and should stop blaming bush for his own actions. Bush didnt blame clinton for shit that happened during his presidency did he?

ACTING SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE OF ACTING IS A DUMB ASS MOVE find one that fits the situation instead of trying to fit the situation to the action...