weightened chin ups or just bodyweight?

[Meso_z]

whats best for bodybuilding purposes?

[Lion666]

both... you have to be able to do at least 15-20 reps before you start to add weight

[dyslexic]

Depends on what you weigh...

[Meso_z]

i can do around 12 and im like 200 at 5'7..

[YoungBlood]

both... you have to be able to do at least 15-20 reps before you start to add weight

I'd like to hear what makes this a valid point.

[Lion666]

I'd like to hear what makes this a valid point.

this is a valid point because you have to be able to handle your own bodyweight, manipulate and move it around well before you decide to add weight thats higher than your own bodyweight,,, and have it be efficient.

 it's like those guys that swing around curling heavy db's / bb's,,, sure you can do it and it will give you some type of marginal strength gains but do it properly because it'll just hurt you, joints, tendons etc..

crawl before you can walk.  master lighter weights before you move up to a heavier weight, etc.

it's valid,,, but hey to each his own.  experienced lifters will see validity in what I said.
  I use 15-20 as a measure.  If you can only do 5 pull-ups what business would anyone have adding weight for...  10 may be a lil premature but you can...

again each his own.


  depends what your goal is, be honest with yourself and go for it.

[dyslexic]

Goal?


To be the biggest most symetrical mofo in the world and live to be 100.



Oh yeah, and to hump Jessica Alba once.

[slaveboy1980]

whats best for bodybuilding purposes?

progressively adding more weight..if your looking to grow. should know that by now.

[NaturalWonder83]

as long as u can do them w perfect form/control-then i think yes add the weight

[jpm101]

Chin-up's are hard for most people, at first. If you can only gut out 4 or 5 reps (bwt only) than try for 5 more negative reps in that set.. Stand on a bench (or whatever) and lower the body down slowly to the bottom each rep. Calling upon even more muscle fiber, you can become stronger in the movement. For our pump fans, the pump to the lats and biceps will increase greatly. Should be able to do 8 bwt normal chins with-in a couple of weeks. Than try adding 5lb to the chin each week. 5lbs may not seem a lot but it can add up over time. Vision yourself doing chins with 40lbs for 8 reps in the near future.

May want to include negative reps in a chin/back program, from time to time. Some impressive weight can be used in the lowering phase. Anywhere from 80 to 100lbs should be with-in anyone's range. Usually 8 to 10 reps. The human body was designed to be much stronger in the negative phase, rather than the contraction phase. Funny thing is, after a heavy set of negative chins, when going back to normal chins, the body will shoot up like a rocket for reps. Good luck.

Side Bar: people tend to forget that chin's/pull-ups are mass producing exercises as much as squats, Dl, rows, bench/inclines are. Also very much so are weighted dips.

[dyslexic]

Being stronger in the negative phase is a great inherent safety mechanism. More often we are forced to lower something safely than lift it safely. I'm talking life outside of the gym, not in it.

Catching something heavy from above may be based more on instinct/emergency as opposed to lifting something too heavy, which requires advance thought-processing and possibly apprehension.

 
Back on topic: Adding to JPM's comment, this is how I train women to become stronger in the chin. Most women have an extremely difficult time lifting their bodyweight to the chin bar. We work with pulldowns a bit, but I have never noticed much crossover to chinning strength, and for good reason. They operate under separate mechanisms.


But, If I can get her to stand on a bench and lower herself with more and more control (safely and slowly) over time, she will increase her chinning strength drastically. Most fems are bottom heavy. They are disproportionately weaker up top. In other words, they can squat, lunge, extend and leg press, leg curl and calf raise for days on end, but asking them to chin their bodyweight once scares them to death. In the beginning they have a very difficult time even lowering themselves from the top of the chin position with control, but that phase passes quickly once the negative training begins.


Thank goodness for that "negative" portion of the muscular contraction. There is a lot to be said for it when it comes to functional training and women. (Men, too I suppose)


Too bad it has to be such an integral variable when associated with the un-ending arguement for the dogma of H.I.T. vs Volume training.



I suppose that there could be some irony in the fact that pulldowns don't seem to help chinning strength much, (they "look" the same) but negative contractions can drastically increase concentric strength.

[YoungBlood]

this is a valid point because you have to be able to handle your own bodyweight, manipulate and move it around well before you decide to add weight thats higher than your own bodyweight,,, and have it be efficient.

 it's like those guys that swing around curling heavy db's / bb's,,, sure you can do it and it will give you some type of marginal strength gains but do it properly because it'll just hurt you, joints, tendons etc..

crawl before you can walk.  master lighter weights before you move up to a heavier weight, etc.

it's valid,,, but hey to each his own.  experienced lifters will see validity in what I said.
  I use 15-20 as a measure.  If you can only do 5 pull-ups what business would anyone have adding weight for...  10 may be a lil premature but you can...

again each his own.


  depends what your goal is, be honest with yourself and go for it.

There is no reason to have your reps that high before you add weight. For one, if you're doing that high of reps to begin with, it's become more of an endurance exercise anyway. Two, if you're adding weight, you're probably trying to add size and that amount of reps is far too high to use as a standard for when to include weight.
You're correct, it is a valid point. But it's the stipulation that you said "have to hit 15-20reps" before you add weight, that I questioned.

[jpm101]

Just dumping this off for whatever it may be worth: There is the old training theory that exercising "body's in air" can produce more strength and muscle mass. That would mean chins and dips (for example- when the whole body is moving) would be better than pulldowns, BB rows, etc or benches or inclines for the back and chest. Idea being that more stabling muscle groups would be brought into play. Do not know how true this might be, though I find that weighted chins and dips can produce quite a lot of muscle mass on serious lifters. My own peresonal choice has always been chins and dips. In a way you could probably add DL's and squats into the mix as "body's in air" theory.

Pulldowns (lat machine, etc) can be an excellent way to build strength for chin-ups if somewhat weak in this exercise. Try one arm pulldowns, rather that the regular 2 handed version. Seems to get better focus on the pull. Alternate each side for 8 to 12 reps each (the lats will gain size). Of course, try adding weight on a regular bases. Might also add the fore mentioned negative reps for chinning, along with the one are pulldowns. Do a couple of higher rep sets after the pulldowns.

Negative reps were encouraged by Art Jones. Not only used for chins, or dips, but for just about any other exercise. Old times  (Marvin Eder comes to mind) used negative curls to great advantage. For bench's,squats, etc two GOOD spoters will be needed. Negative work well with the Rest-Pause system. good Luck.

[YoungBlood]

Just dumping this off for whatever it may be worth: There is the old training theory that exercising "body's in air" can produce more strength and muscle mass. That would mean chins and dips (for example- when the whole body is moving) would be better than pulldowns, BB rows, etc or benches or inclines for the back and chest. Idea being that more stabling muscle groups would be brought into play. Do not know how true this might be, though I find that weighted chins and dips can produce quite a lot of muscle mass on serious lifters. My own peresonal choice has always been chins and dips. In a way you could probably add DL's and squats into the mix as "body's in air" theory....

I agree with this. Though I read it in one of Leo Costa's manuals, "Big Beyond Belief." Not much science behind it, for me to validate it though.

The idea that more muscles are involved during a squat, versus a leg press, because you're moving your entire body rather just your legs is what the theory is based on. To coincide with this, it's similar to doing a compound movement versus an isolation movement. You'll build bigger deltoids by doing military presses, than laterals-but to shape the muscle for BBing's sake, you want to do laterals as an obligatory movement. 

They had an entire rating system, where doing (as an example) laterals on a machine were the worst, followed by machine presses, then standing laterals with DB's, and a military press with a barbell.

[greg2112]

Great post!!!  I have done this and it helped me increase total number of reps

Just dumping this off for whatever it may be worth: There is the old training theory that exercising "body's in air" can produce more strength and muscle mass. That would mean chins and dips (for example- when the whole body is moving) would be better than pulldowns, BB rows, etc or benches or inclines for the back and chest. Idea being that more stabling muscle groups would be brought into play. Do not know how true this might be, though I find that weighted chins and dips can produce quite a lot of muscle mass on serious lifters. My own peresonal choice has always been chins and dips. In a way you could probably add DL's and squats into the mix as "body's in air" theory.

Pulldowns (lat machine, etc) can be an excellent way to build strength for chin-ups if somewhat weak in this exercise. Try one arm pulldowns, rather that the regular 2 handed version. Seems to get better focus on the pull. Alternate each side for 8 to 12 reps each (the lats will gain size). Of course, try adding weight on a regular bases. Might also add the fore mentioned negative reps for chinning, along with the one are pulldowns. Do a couple of higher rep sets after the pulldowns.

Negative reps were encouraged by Art Jones. Not only used for chins, or dips, but for just about any other exercise. Old times  (Marvin Eder comes to mind) used negative curls to great advantage. For bench's,squats, etc two GOOD spoters will be needed. Negative work well with the Rest-Pause system. good Luck.

[Yev33]

I personally like to do chin ups/pull ups twice a week, one day with just body weight, another session with added weight for lower reps around 6.

[jpm101]

Yev33: logical approach.

[AVBG]

When you can do ten full reps then add 10lbs

[wes]

I have my training partner (who is a woman) do negative chins....great exercise for adding reps to chins for sure.


Great advice as always JPM,YB,and dyslexic.

[Coach is Back!]

I have my training partner (who is a woman) do negative chins....great exercise for adding reps to chins for sure.


Great advice as always JPM,YB,and dyslexic.

[Lion666]

There is no reason to have your reps that high before you add weight. For one, if you're doing that high of reps to begin with, it's become more of an endurance exercise anyway. Two, if you're adding weight, you're probably trying to add size and that amount of reps is far too high to use as a standard for when to include weight.
You're correct, it is a valid point. But it's the stipulation that you said "have to hit 15-20reps" before you add weight, that I questioned.

yeah 15-20 is a lil high and does get into the endurance range,,, thats why i say then it'b be time to add weight.  sometimes it's said to do higher reps for legs round 15 reps for growth, 8-12 for upper body,,, being as back is a big muscle applying that theory you could go a lil higher than 12,,, maybe 15.  I myself waited till i hit 20, thats when they stoped giving me growth, then started adding weight.  I figure on squeezing the stone dry before goin to a new one. then goin back to squeeze it again for more, just like a girl. 
each his own,,, thats what makes this game great. 
more than 1 way to skin a cat.  same destination, different roads

[local hero]

i used to be well into my chining,,,,,,,,, they are in my opion, the best width exersize u can do..

best tip i came across for rank begginers and those struggling to get into the propper rep range is,, rest pause.. just pick a number and make sure you get to it,,

start with 25, your 1st set u might only get 6 or 7, just keep on going till you reach 25,, keep raising it each week..

obviously once your advanced, you can knock out 12 to 15 slow controlled reps, with big contraction at the top,,its time to start adding weight..


v bar narrow grip chins are vastly under rated too, they will give you the best lat stretch youl ever feel, make sure when u pull up, you pull to your lower chest

[Swedish Viking]

Just stay in the rep range that you would for any other exercise.  If you're trying to build mass and your form is good, add weight when you are around 12 reps without. 

In other news, how many people here are chinning chest to bar instead of just chin over bar?  I just started doing chest to bar and it is a biatch.

[dyslexic]

I like to hang the itty-bitty close-grip rowing bar over the top of the chin bar, and I will pull my chest up to it.

I think Frankie Columbu used to do something like that. Feels like it works.

[jpm101]

Vince Gironda recommend  touching the middle to upper chest on each rep of the wide grip chin. Suggesting  to arc the back as much as possible in the process. That was back in the 60's. Gironda had a background in gymnastics, so maybe he got the idea there. Seem to work well for the "V" tapper look for the BB'ers than. But hard to do for most people, at first.

If the "itty-bitty" close grip rowing (EZ bar?) is used with a curl grip (think that's what dy's means) than you have a superior bicep builder. Along with the lat's themselves. Do not forget the full stretch at the bottom for either of the above versions of chins. Power guy's do not worry too much about that, but BB'ers should. Good Luck.