Sarah Palin Takes Stupid To A New Level With Glenn Beck!!

[MCWAY]

First Amendment places no religion above or below another.  Christianity, Hindu, Pagan worship, Islam, etc.. are all equal.

First Commandment is clearly a Christian principle that excludes all other religions other than Christianity.  You can not be a Christian and worship Allah, or Xendu or the tree outside.   If the First Amendment were based on Christian principles, it would not have placed Christianity on the same level as other religions.  Therefore by allowing the worship and existence of other gods and religions other than Christianity the First Amendment clearly violates the First Commandment.  If it were religious based.  Which it isn't.

Once again, the Establishment Clause was written in the context of not favoring DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY. The last thing on the minds of the Founding Fathers was Islam, Buddhism, or any other pagan religion.

A prime example of that:

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." - John Quincy Adams


By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." - Samuel Chase


Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." -  John Adams

I had the honor of being one who framed that Constitution. In order effectually to accomplish these great ends set forth in the Constitution, it is especially the duty of those who bear rule to promote and encourage respect for God and virtue and to discourage every degree of vice and immorality" - Henry Laurens



You think Adams, Q. Adams, and Chase simply made statements like that off the cuff, IGNORING the First Amendment? PLEASE!!!

You think John Jay was worried about facing Mecca 5 times a day? GET REAL!!!

Bigger news flash you idiot.  I have been talking about the nation from a government standpoint since page 2.   Not culture.  Not society.

Kind of slow aren't you?

The Constitution establishes nothing in regards to specific culture or society issues.  The Constitution is strictly from a governmental standpoint.

You really attempting to give those two brain cells of yours a run for the money today aren't you?  

Once again, Clucky, you ain't had your Wheaties today. The Founding Fathers (you know, THE MEN WHO WROTE AND SIGNED AND GOVERNED BY THE CONSTITUTION) said, in no uncertain terms, the basis for which they framed it.

Lest you missed it again, blind one:

"The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." - John Quincy Adams

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." - Samuel Chase

So, even if you're talking from a purely governmental standpoint, you're still a full-fledged resident of Bonehead-Land, because the Founders mentioned that Scripture inspired their drafting the Constitution.

[Straw Man]

Let's see what the men who drafted, signed, and governed by that Constitution said about it, shall we?



By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." - Samuel Chase

The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal code as well as a moral and religious code. These are laws essential to the existence of men in society and most of which have been enacted by every Nation which ever professed any code of laws. Vain indeed would be the search among the writings of secular history to find so broad, so complete and so solid a basis of morality as the Ten Commandments lay down." - John Quincy Adams

Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." -  John Adams

I had the honor of being one who framed that Constitution. In order effectually to accomplish these great ends set forth in the Constitution, it is especially the duty of those who bear rule to promote and encourage respect for God and virtue and to discourage every degree of vice and immorality" - Henry Laurens

OOPS!! I forgot you don't like that, because it smashes your claims to pieces and make you look silly (or sillier, I should say).

You’re aware that none of these quotes support your that right?

Do you have any quotes from these guys explaining why they forget to mention Jesus in the founding documents and even went out of their way to explicitly state that no religious test would ever be required to hold public office?

Do you have any quotes from John Adams explaining why he signed his name to a treaty that included the words “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” if he supposedly believed otherwise.

[MCWAY]

You’re aware that none of these quotes support your that right?

On the contrary, if the men who signed the Constitution say it's a Christian country, then that's what it is.

Do you have any quotes from these guys explaining why they forget to mention Jesus in the founding documents and even went out of their way to explicitly state that no religious test would ever be required to hold public office?

Mentioning Jesus, contrary to the "Straw Man" you and Lurker keep making, isn't necessary to make America a Christian nation, as the Founding Fathers have maintained REPEATEDLY.

Once again, the "religious test" had to do with the denominations within Christianity, NOT other pagan religions.

Reason:

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty." - Samuel Chase

Do you have any quotes from John Adams explaining why he signed his name to a treaty that included the words “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” if he supposedly believed otherwise.

I explained that already. That likely had more to do with making the point that America was not a theocracy, like certain Muslim countries. But you don't have to be a theocracy to be a Christian nation.

Adams didn't supposedly believe otherwise. We have his words, stating what he believed. The question then becomes, why you (and Lurker) repeatedly ignore what the Founders actually said?

And, lost again in all of this, if the Founders were so hell-bent on declaring their secular identity, WHY WAS ARTICLE 11 REMOVED from the Treaty of Tripoli in 1805?

And, why did the Founding Fathers CONTINUE to make statements about America's being a Christian nations IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TREATY WAS SIGNED and throughout the years until and AFTER Article 11 got DROPPED?

[Straw Man]

Why do you think your hand picked quotes have more significance than the founding documents?

That's what I don't understand.

If I showed you quotes from Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson etc... I assume you would give them the same deference that you have for the people who share your opinion right?

The only thing that matters are official documents of this country.

The official documents say - No State religion, No religious requirement to hold office etc...

The Treaty of Tripoli is an official document - passed unanimously (and signed by the same John Adams you've quoted earlier in the thread). 

Official documents are all that matter

Quotes of personal feelings or beliefs by people are irrelevent

Keep trying to find some actual proof

[MCWAY]

Why do you think your hand picked quotes have more significance than the founding documents?

That's what I don't understand.

If I showed you quotes from Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson etc... I assume you would give them the same deference that you have for the people who share your opinion right?

The only thing that matters are official documents of this country.

The official documents say - No State religion, No religious requirement to hold office etc...

The Treaty of Tripoli is an official document - passed unanimously (and signed by the same John Adams you've quoted earlier in the thread).  

Official documents are all that matter

Quotes of personal feelings or beliefs by people are irrelevent

Keep trying to find some actual proof

I've already found it. And, what you repeatedly keep forgetting is that Article 11 of the Treaty is GONE, has been since 1805.

So, obviously your claims about official documents betray you. If the Founding Fathers were intent on declaring America a non-Christian nation, they would NOT have dropped Article 11, when it got renegotiated in the 19th century.


Oh, by the way, the statement of Samuel Chase was NOT just "personal feelings". It was the VERDICT FROM THE SUPREME COURT, of which he was a member, writing the MAJORITY VIEW OF THAT COURT. And that Supreme Court stated (once again),

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty. - Samuel Chase, Supreme Court Justice, giving the majority opinion in the case, "Runkel v. Winemiller", 1799.

Note the date: 1799, roughly TWO YEARS after the Treaty of Tripoli (with Article 11, which got removed in 1805).

So, much like Lurker, your attempts to dismiss what the Founding Fathers said about America being a Christian nation simply fall flat.

[Straw Man]

I've already found it. And, what you repeatedly keep forgetting is that Article 11 of the Treaty is GONE, has been since 1805.
So, obviously your claims about official documents betray you. If the Founding Fathers were intent on declaring America a non-Christian nation, they would NOT have dropped Article 11, when it got renegotiated in the 19th century.

is this your opinion or some fact you can actually prove

show me some proof of this statement otherwise I have no reason to draw the same conclusion as you (i.e. no proof that's its true)

I assume they removed it because it was a statement of the obvious since it was clearly layed out in our constition that we had a secular government. 

I'll respond to everything else you've said but we've got to resolve this issue first

[pellius]

Why do you think your hand picked quotes have more significance than the founding documents?

That's what I don't understand.

If I showed you quotes from Thomas Payne, Thomas Jefferson etc... I assume you would give them the same deference that you have for the people who share your opinion right?

The only thing that matters are official documents of this country.

The official documents say - No State religion, No religious requirement to hold office etc...

The Treaty of Tripoli is an official document - passed unanimously (and signed by the same John Adams you've quoted earlier in the thread). 

Official documents are all that matter

Quotes of personal feelings or beliefs by people are irrelevent

Keep trying to find some actual proof

Are the words "separation of church and state" on any official documents?

[Straw Man]

Are the words "separation of church and state" on any official documents?

you can't find google?

[MCWAY]

you can't find google?

He can find Google. What he CAN'T FIND is "separation of church and state" in any official documents.

[Straw Man]

He can find Google. What he CAN'T FIND is "separation of church and state" in any official documents.

and what do you thing this means?

btw - I'll address every one of your points in your last post but first you have to simply provide some proof of your statement

consider it a simple test just to make sure you understand the difference between opinion and fact

[pellius]

and what do you thing this means?

btw - I'll address every one of your points in your last post but first you have to simply provide some proof of your statement

consider it a simple test just to make sure you understand the difference between opinion and fact

Weren't you the one who said that only official documents matter? I wonder if the concept of separation of church and state is on a official document because, if it is, I want to put a stop to this swearing in ceremony stuff.

[Straw Man]

Weren't you the one who said that only official documents matter? I wonder if the concept of separation of church and state is on a official document because, if it is, I want to put a stop to this swearing in ceremony stuff.

what does lack of that statement prove (this is not a trick question)?

[LurkerNoMore]

You’re aware that none of these quotes support your that right?

Do you have any quotes from these guys explaining why they forget to mention Jesus in the founding documents and even went out of their way to explicitly state that no religious test would ever be required to hold public office?

Do you have any quotes from John Adams explaining why he signed his name to a treaty that included the words “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” if he supposedly believed otherwise.

As I have said... the irony of rabid Christians is that no matter what, they can't bend reality to support their delusions.

[LurkerNoMore]

He can find Google. What he CAN'T FIND is "separation of church and state" in any official documents.

Can't find "Christian Nation" in the Constitution either.  But that doesn't stop you from crying about your delusions and claiming it is so.   

Too bad the official written document - word for word - doesn't support your insecurities and claims.  Living in a secular nation must be frustrating.

[Soul Crusher]

Can't find "Christian Nation" in the Constitution either.  But that doesn't stop you from crying about your delusions and claiming it is so.   

Too bad the official written document - word for word - doesn't support your insecurities and claims.  Living in a secular nation must be frustrating.

Can we all just agree that this thread is going in circles and circles and circles? 

[MCWAY]

Can't find "Christian Nation" in the Constitution either.  But that doesn't stop you from crying about your delusions and claiming it is so.  

Too bad the official written document - word for word - doesn't support your insecurities and claims.  Living in a secular nation must be frustrating.

If I actually lived in one, you might have a point.

[MCWAY]

Can't find "Christian Nation" in the Constitution either.  But that doesn't stop you from crying about your delusions and claiming it is so.  

Wrong again, Einstein. I never claimed that "Christian Nation" was in the Constitution. What I said was that such was NOT NECESSARY for the FOUNDING FATHERS to deem America a Christian nation, which they've done.

These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."  - US Supreme Court, "Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States", 1892

Too bad the official written document - word for word - doesn't support your insecurities and claims.  Living in a secular nation must be frustrating.

If I actually lived in one, you might have a point.


Too bad for you the men, who WROTE AND SIGNED THAT DOCUMENT, declared that America is a Christian nation.

[LurkerNoMore]

It isn't in there because this isn't a Christian Nation. 

Because ....

So once again for the benefit of the slow ones on board...

--God was purposely left out of the Constitution
--Jesus - the icon of Christianity - was left out of the Constitution
--America has no established church
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
--Church and state is separated

America is not a Christian nation.

Pretending it is simply because of your own insecurities and lack of independent thought process is not going to make it so.

Baby Jeebus is weeping over your stupidity right now.

[MCWAY]

is this your opinion or some fact you can actually prove

show me some proof of this statement otherwise I have no reason to draw the same conclusion as you (i.e. no proof that's its true)

I assume they removed it because it was a statement of the obvious since it was clearly layed out in our constition that we had a secular government.  

I'll respond to everything else you've said but we've got to resolve this issue first

If it were a statement of the obvious, there wouldn't have been a Supreme Court ruling saying the exact opposite, less than two years later. Nor, would you have other Founding Fathers, stating the exact opposite AFTER the Treaty of Tripoli was signed.

Add to that, these rulings from the Supreme Court, as well:

" These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."  - Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 1892

So, you have the Founding Fathers, who wrote and signed the Constitution, declaring America to be a Christian nation. And, you have rulings from the Supreme Court doing much the same thing.

[Straw Man]

I've already found it. And, what you repeatedly keep forgetting is that Article 11 of the Treaty is GONE, has been since 1805.

So, obviously your claims about official documents betray you. If the Founding Fathers were intent on declaring America a non-Christian nation, they would NOT have dropped Article 11, when it got renegotiated in the 19th century.


Oh, by the way, the statement of Samuel Chase was NOT just "personal feelings". It was the VERDICT FROM THE SUPREME COURT, of which he was a member, writing the MAJORITY VIEW OF THAT COURT. And that Supreme Court stated (once again),

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty. - Samuel Chase, Supreme Court Justice, giving the majority opinion in the case, "Runkel v. Winemiller", 1799.

Note the date: 1799, roughly TWO YEARS after the Treaty of Tripoli (with Article 11, which got removed in 1805).

So, much like Lurker, your attempts to dismiss what the Founding Fathers said about America being a Christian nation simply fall flat.

Again – you’re confusing facts with opinion
The quote by Chase in an opinion (that’s actually what it’s called)
You’re aware that Chase was the only Supreme Court justice who was ever impeached right?
The reason for his impeachment was allegedly that he let his partisan leanings effect his court decisions.
Maybe he was the activist judge of his day attempting to legislate from the bench (that would be my opinion)
It’s Chase opinion that the “Christian religion is the established religion” and we don’t even know what he means by “established religion” although again, you have no problem making an assumption and pretending it’s a fact.
I’m still waiting for you to prove your claim about why Article 11 was removed when the treaty was re-written.   Treaties get re-written all the time and stuff get’s added or removed.  You have no clue why that passage wasn’t included but you have no problem making an assumption and then pretending it’s a fact or loading it up with “meaning” were none exist
I don’t actually come to the board to argue with people but there’s also no point in even talking to people who don’t understand the difference between opinion and fact

[MCWAY]

Again – you’re confusing facts with opinion
The quote by Chase in an opinion (that’s actually what it’s called)
You’re aware that Chase was the only Supreme Court justice who was ever impeached right?
The reason for his impeachment was allegedly that he let his partisan leanings effect his court decisions.
Maybe he was the activist judge of his day attempting to legislate from the bench (that would be my opinion)
It’s Chase opinion that the “Christian religion is the established religion” and we don’t even know what he means by “established religion” although again, you have no problem making an assumption and pretending it’s a fact.
I’m still waiting for you to prove your claim about why Article 11 was removed when the treaty was re-written.   Treaties get re-written all the time and stuff get’s added or removed.  You have no clue why that passage wasn’t included but you have no problem making an assumption and then pretending it’s a fact or loading it up with “meaning” were none exist
I don’t actually come to the board to argue with people but there’s also no point in even talking to people who don’t understand the difference between opinion and fact

Since Chase wrote the majority opinion, that would indicate that Chase wasn't the only justice who held that "opinion". It's awfully hard for one guy to rule for the entire Supreme Court.

The FACTS are that the Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation.

And, you misread my statement, yet again. I simply stated that, if the Founding Fathers were intent on declaring America a non-Christian nation via that Treaty of Tripoli, they would NOT have dropped Article 11, when it got renegotiated in the 19th century.

Yes, treaties do get written and re-written. And, when a certain item gets removed, that is a BIG HINT that it no longer applies to the current treaty (regardless of the reason for which it was originally placed in the treaty).

[Straw Man]

Since Chase wrote the majority opinion, that would indicate that Chase wasn't the only justice who held that "opinion". It's awfully hard for one guy to rule for the entire Supreme Court.
The FACTS are that the Founding Fathers declared that America is a Christian nation.
And, you misread my statement, yet again. I simply stated that, if the Founding Fathers were intent on declaring America a non-Christian nation via that Treaty of Tripoli, they would NOT have dropped Article 11, when it got renegotiated in the 19th century.

again - your claim of "intent" is unproven therefore only your opinion
the only fact at this point is that it did exist in the first place and was passed with unanimous consent
my opinion would be that we were a new nation and this was one of our first treaties and we wanted to make it clear that our nation was not founded on Christianity (we were dealing with Muslims afterall).   Later this statement was unnecessary as it was an obvious and known fact that we were a secular government.   That would be my opinion on the matter

Regarding the "Founding Fathers"  the only official group opinions would be things like the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and there is no state religion, official religion or anything that remotely suggests any "established religion" so your statement that the "founding fathers" declared that America is a christian nation has no basis in fact

[MCWAY]

again - your claim of "intent" is unproven therefore only your opinion

I didn't claim intent. I simply dismissed the idea that the Treaty of Tripoli's intent was to cite America as not being a Christian nation.

Again, if that were the case, why was Article 11 taken out of the Treaty in 1805?

the only fact at this point is that it did exist in the first place and was passed with unanimous consent
my opinion would be that we were a new nation and this was one of our first treaties and we wanted to make it clear that our nation was not founded on Christianity (we were dealing with Muslims afterall).   Later this statement was unnecessary as it was an obvious and known fact that we were a secular government.   That would be my opinion on the matter

That opinion is flawed, based on the words of the Founding Fathers BEFORE the Treaty was signed, the rulings and statements made by them shortly AFTER it was signed, and the fact that Article 11 was taken out of the Treaty in 1805.

If it were an "obvious and known fact that we were a secular government", the US Supreme Court wouldn't have given the following ruling less than TWO YEARS after the Treaty was signed:

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.

That doesn't come from an "obvious" secular government.

Regarding the "Founding Fathers"  the only official group opinions would be things like the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and there is no state religion, official religion or anything that remotely suggests any "established religion" so your statement that the "founding fathers" declared that America is a christian nation has no basis in fact

PLEASE!! Supreme Court rulings play a significant role in the matter. And, since the men who actually wrote the Constitution stated, in no uncertain terms, that we are a Christian nation, your conclusion is a faulty one, to say the least.

My statements are based on fact, because we have what they said, in black-and-white. And, as has been shown multiple times, the "no state religion" items is clearly within the context of Christian denominations, not between Christianity and other religion.

Hence the reason, you have our Founders making statements such as,

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty.

And,

These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian"

The Redeemer of Mankind: That ain't a reference to Allah, Buddha, or Krishna. It's to Jesus Christ.

[Straw Man]

I didn't claim intent. I simply dismissed the idea that the Treaty of Tripoli's intent was to cite America as not being a Christian nation.
Again, if that were the case, why was Article 11 taken out of the Treaty in 1805?

I never said or even suggestd that the intent of the treaty was to cite America not being a Christian nation.

It was called a treaty of peace and friendship and it was the first treaty by our country with another nation.  The fact that we included a statement explaining saying that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in simply part of the treaty but not the purpose of the treaty.

The purpose of the treaty was to secure passage of our ships (and to negotiate a payment for that passage).

You did in fact claim intent on WHY that Article was removed and you even seems to imply it again with your last last askng why it was taken out.

We don't know why it was taken out and neither do you

this is simple point

do you understand this or not?

We do know that "The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to pay the Pasha's demands for increased payments. The Treaty was renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War."

Thats it.

If you have proof of specific reason for any part of th re-write then show it to me.

[MCWAY]

I never said or even suggestd that the intent of the treaty was to cite America not being a Christian nation.

I know that. YOU did not; a certain cowarly posted DID.

It was called a treaty of peace and friendship and it was the first treaty by our country with another nation.  The fact that we included a statement explaining saying that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in simply part of the treaty but not the purpose of the treaty.

Agreed!!!

The purpose of the treaty was to secure passage of our ships (and to negotiate a payment for that passage).

Agreed!!! I stated that when the aforementioned cowardly poster made his silly claims.

You did in fact claim intent on WHY that Article was removed and you even seems to imply it again with your last last askng why it was taken out.

No. I didn't. I simply asked why was it taken out, if the purpose of the Treaty was, to show that America was not a Christian nation.

We don't know why it was taken out and neither do you

this is simple point

do you understand this or not?

I made that simple point, LONG before you jumped into this conversation. That's why I stated that, whatever the reason Article 11 was placed into the Treaty, it was dropped eight years later.

We do know that "The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to pay the Pasha's demands for increased payments. The Treaty was renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War."

Thats it.

If you have proof of specific reason for any part of th re-write then show it to me.

During that renegotiation, Article 11 was gone. I never claimed that I knew exactly why it was taken out. What I actually said (to make the point to the yellow-streaked one) was using the Treaty of Tripoli as proof that America is not a Christian nation, when the very portion of the treaty that he keeps trumpeting GOT DROPPED in 1805, makes no sense.