Author Topic: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread  (Read 34504 times)

DroppingPlates

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2010, 05:46:48 AM »
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These pics show he highly trust his pacemaker

FREAKgeek

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2010, 10:45:07 AM »
Arnold had the structure, chest and arms. Mentzer had conditioning and legs. Mentzer's achilles was his chest and front traps. Overall, I see Arnold is clearly better.

Tarantula157

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2010, 03:40:00 PM »
Even after 5 years of retirement and only 8 weeks of training for his comeback,Arnold was better than Mentzer and it was not even close...

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2010, 03:46:20 PM »
Arnold was right about Mike's stomach after all...

The_Infidel

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2010, 08:53:53 PM »
Even after 5 years of retirement and only 8 weeks of training for his comeback,Arnold was better than Mentzer and it was not even close...


Ha ha, exactly.  I've seen some pictures of Mike Mentzer where he looked amazing.  Really mind blowing.  However, those pictures weren't taken at the 1980 Olympia.  5th place is 5th fucking place.  Mike wasn't at his best and he wasn't even in the same league as a sub-par Arnold.  Anyone with two eyes should be able to see that. 

Even as a huge Arnold fan, I recognize that the Arnold worship can be a bit much at times.  With that said, I’m also really sick of all the Mentzer/Jones/HIT zealots in this place always carrying on about 1980 and how much better HIT is than volume.  Yawn.  Get over it.  Arnold won, Mike was 5th.  Also, some people prefer to do a little more volume when they train.  So What?

I think that the pro-Arnold people are just that.....pro-Arnold.  They aren't hell bent on destroying and undermining the reputations of Mentzer and Jones every chance they get.   The same can't be said of the pro-Mentzer crowd.  It reeks of pettiness and jealousy. It's sad really.


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suckmymuscle

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2010, 09:32:46 PM »
HIT doesn't work for everyone and Arnold is the man



  A great part of the huge size increase of pros from the 1970s to the 1990s have to do with decreased volume and increased intensity in training and not only with insulin and GH use like lots of people think. Endurance type I muscle fibers don't hypertrophy no matter what, and types II and III only hypertrophy in response to either great speed or intensity of muscular contractions and not volume, so volume training is pointless. Most of the muscular hypertrophy that volume trainers experience comes from the last one or two reps in a set(high intensity), and all the volume only drains glycogen and ATP stores and causes structural damage to the sarcomeres mitochondria which is useless for growth - growth comes from damage to the proteinaceous contractile part of the sarcomeres which only comes from either high intensity or speed training

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2010, 04:22:49 AM »
  A great part of the huge size increase of pros from the 1970s to the 1990s have to do with decreased volume and increased intensity in training and not only with insulin and GH use like lots of people think. Endurance type I muscle fibers don't hypertrophy no matter what, and types II and III only hypertrophy in response to either great speed or intensity of muscular contractions and not volume, so volume training is pointless. Most of the muscular hypertrophy that volume trainers experience comes from the last one or two reps in a set(high intensity), and all the volume only drains glycogen and ATP stores and causes structural damage to the sarcomeres mitochondria which is useless for growth - growth comes from damage to the proteinaceous contractile part of the sarcomeres which only comes from either high intensity or speed training

SUCKMYMUSCLE

how can you be so fukkking naive... it has everything do with the increased drug usage. if you take enough drugs and have top level genetics it doesn't matter how you train.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2010, 09:58:13 AM »
how can you be so fukkking naive... it has everything do with the increased drug usage. if you take enough drugs and have top level genetics it doesn't matter how you train.

  I disagree. Insulin and GH were introduced in the 1980s and the guys still competed at around 220 to 240 lbs at heights between 5'8 and 6'1. In the mid to late 1990s, their bodyweights shot to 240 to 290 lbs after Yates had become Mr.Olympia and advocated his HIT style of training. Jean Pierre Fux even mentioned that his muscle growth increased dramatically after he cut back on the volume and increased the intensity. He even mentioned that he had been using insulin and GH since he was amateur and he was still stuck at a competition weight of 245 lbs.

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disco_stu

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2010, 12:12:47 PM »
Sigh. Intensity will always stand triumphant over volume, this isn't even a debate. PROPER HIT training will give you the most bang for your buck.

spot on.. the reason why it doesnt work for lots of people is that they dont know how to do it, dont really train HIT, and dont rest at the right frequency.

so they cry foul and whine that it doesnt work and mentzer was a wierdo.

the only "problem" with HIT is the demand on the nervous system...but that can be managed.

any successful athlete employs HIT to become great these days...thats a fact.

thats why "match fitness" is still revered.

and its why muscle gets built...it (nervous system AND muscle) adapts to demand..its a physiological fact.

nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2010, 05:21:18 PM »
 A great part of the huge size increase of pros from the 1970s to the 1990s have to do with decreased volume and increased intensity in training and not only with insulin and GH use like lots of people think. Endurance type I muscle fibers don't hypertrophy no matter what, and types II and III only hypertrophy in response to either great speed or intensity of muscular contractions and not volume, so volume training is pointless. Most of the muscular hypertrophy that volume trainers experience comes from the last one or two reps in a set(high intensity), and all the volume only drains glycogen and ATP stores and causes structural damage to the sarcomeres mitochondria which is useless for growth - growth comes from damage to the proteinaceous contractile part of the sarcomeres which only comes from either high intensity or speed training

SUCKMYMUSCLE

no,, it is mostly increased drug use and more people doing bodybuilding,,  what you say would be interesting for natural traines as too much volume will be counter productive for a natural  

what is muscle fiber type3 ? primary stimululs for growth of type II fiber is progressive tension increase on the muscle but there is a fatigue component too which says you need a certain amount of volum,,,

nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2010, 05:29:42 PM »
spot on.. the reason why it doesnt work for lots of people is that they dont know how to do it, dont really train HIT, and dont rest at the right frequency.

so they cry foul and whine that it doesnt work and mentzer was a wierdo.

the only "problem" with HIT is the demand on the nervous system...but that can be managed.

any successful athlete employs HIT to become great these days...thats a fact.

thats why "match fitness" is still revered.

and its why muscle gets built...it (nervous system AND muscle) adapts to demand..its a physiological fact.


no no, this post is absolute nonsense on so many levels:, when will you people start educating yourself and stop with HIT vs volume and look at real science and not muscle magazinge nonsense??


i would write more but quoting fucntion is annoying me so much i cant type any more

slacker

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #111 on: February 13, 2010, 05:38:57 PM »
does mike still compete
I

nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #112 on: February 13, 2010, 05:43:35 PM »
hormonization allows you to grow even if your training iss stuipid,, so why are you guys constantly analyzing how these drug users train? it is pretty much irrelevant,, and certainly not something you can draw conclusions from other than massive amount of drugs work,,,

for natural bodybuilder; total newbie should do full body workout 3 days per week,, then after maybe 6-12 mmonths of serious training; 2-day split 3-4 days per week so you maintain frequency off about twice per week per body part then when you advance more you can start doing some other things,, specialization routine and/or 3 day split on 5 day rotation to keep frequency to atleast every 5th day,.,etc etc

stop talking about HIT vs volume and look at science;; science says ,, work muscle twice per week (or three times per week if you are total newbie),,

volume ;; there is optimal range, according to wernbom review it is 40-60 reps, which means about 3-9 sets per body part if you use rep range 5-12,, which is rep range bodybuilders should mostly use,,

intensity ( percentage of 1  RM);; mostly 75-85%,, sometimes abit higher and abit lower but average intensity approx 80 %, look at wernbom meta review, look at rhea studies,, total newbie can and should work at lower intensity,, approx 60% works for newbies


failure or not ;; failure is NOT a must like many HIT maniacs say,, this is VERY big mistake they make,, because too much failure training (even small amount for many peole) will force you to reduce volume too much also it will burn you out,. and create under-frequency in your training...most cases stopping one rep before failure is best because it doesnt stress your CNS so much but still gives plenty of stimulation for gtrowth

Lumberjack88

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #113 on: February 13, 2010, 05:53:29 PM »
Arnold may have looked better than Mentzer in 1980, but fact is, Mentzer looked damn good, and he trained so much less than everyone else around that time... Arnold just happens to have better genetics, he would have achieved the same results in less time if he applied a lot more intensity in his style of training than doing 20 sets per musclegroup.

nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #114 on: February 13, 2010, 05:54:18 PM »
also there are many variations of HIT,, many are stupid,, some are ok,,

the variations that are stupid:: too much focus on failure and forcred reps etc >>> too low volume+ too low frequency...


nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #115 on: February 13, 2010, 05:57:32 PM »
Arnold may have looked better than Mentzer in 1980, but fact is, Mentzer looked damn good, and he trained so much less than everyone else around that time... Arnold just happens to have better genetics, he would have achieved the same results in less time if he applied a lot more intensity in his style of training than doing 20 sets per musclegroup.


please,, stop it (analyzing hormonized pro training as it mattered to who won what),, mike at the time didnt do extreme low volume training,, yes probably less than arnold but he certainly didnt do VERY low volume training,, not that it matters at all as to who won the mr olympia,, mike: i like his physique but he certainly didnt win mr olympia in 80,, which is the past and people should move on,..

Lumberjack88

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2010, 06:03:36 PM »

please,, stop it (analyzing hormonized pro training as it mattered to who won what),, mike at the time didnt do extreme low volume training,, yes probably less than arnold but he certainly didnt do VERY low volume training,, not that it matters at all as to who won the mr olympia,, mike: i like his physique but he certainly didnt win mr olympia in 80,, which is the past and people should move on,..

I don't care who won 1980, I'm just saying that Mentzer hasn't trained as much, by far, as other bodybuilders around that time, and I'm aware of the fact that he was using rest pause training at that point, not the later proclaimed ultra low volume approach.

nolotil

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2010, 06:12:03 PM »
I don't care who won 1980, I'm just saying that Mentzer hasn't trained as much, by far, as other bodybuilders around that time, and I'm aware of the fact that he was using rest pause training at that point, not the later proclaimed ultra low volume approach.

i dont either really care who won 80  ;),, but like i said i always liked mikes physique but it is wrong when people call him some kind of training genius,, MANY of the things he talked about training- and nutritionwise is rubbish (but people only see him as some kind of martyr),, and has been proven wrong,, problem is people rely on muscle magazines and other traditional bodybuilding sources for their information instead of really educating themselves,,

not that it really matters,;; but many people who saw him train at that point saw him do 7-12 working set for body part,, less than arnold and many other who did crazy training volume but certainly not extreme low volume HIT that he later said was best approach,,,

The_Infidel

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2010, 06:29:29 PM »
Martyr is the right word.

All this bullshit is a waste of time.  You aren't going to look like Arnold or Mentzer unless you juice.  And if you juice, either volume or HIT will probable work pretty well for you.  As long as you train hard and heavy you are going to be just fine either way.  Genetics play a part as well but this is not worth going over like a bunch of phony scientists.  It's laughable. 



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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #119 on: April 09, 2010, 12:02:26 AM »
Mike mentzer

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2010, 12:12:24 AM »
I'm ready to bring the Arnold VS Mike Mentzer (Volume Training VS HIT) to a conclusion for once and for all.  I hereby go on record saying that Arnold is The Man, that Volume Training is the best way to go, and Mike Mentzer was a weirdo.  End of story.

I agree 100%.

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #121 on: April 09, 2010, 01:31:33 AM »
wow, great thread

FREAKgeek

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #122 on: April 09, 2010, 05:24:31 AM »
no,, it is mostly increased drug use and more people doing bodybuilding

This is a good statistical point that people miss. More people are doing bodybuilding than before.  This will give a larger pool of people to naturally sift out the genetically best.

 

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #123 on: April 09, 2010, 06:12:46 AM »
One guy rules the third biggest economy in the world...the other turned into a tweeker who killed himself...it was never really a contest ..
L

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Re: Arnold VS Mentzer: The Definitive Thread
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2010, 06:50:45 AM »
mentzer looks far too concerned with arnold in almost every pose.  all the relaxed poses seem to have mike not hitting the pose right due to his breaking his neck looking back at arnie.  mike was good, but not great.  That is what it comes down to and mike just couldn't handle it.  as far as HIT vs. volume, in my earlier years I would have told you volume, but for me, more rest= more muscle.