...did you read it in the original Greek and Hebrew?
If not, then it's just a matter of which translation you prefer for that Romans 2 passage. I assume it's an imperative clause based on the "they deserve death" bit, it kinda colours my thinking.
Once we are all agreed that the Old Testament DOES demand death for homosexuals; insolent children; cussing your parents; worshipping other gods; witchcraft etc etc... once we all agree upon that.. and that the New Testament deems homosexuals at least deserving of death.
We didn't all agree on this mess, because (once again) your tendency to post utter foolishness rears its silly head.
There is no death penalty for insolent children, nor for "cussing" your parents. Yes, the OT cites capital punishment for homosexuals, those who worship other gods (of course, bringing up the methods by which those gods were worshippied, i.e human sacrifice, and a bunch of other items about which you keep blubbering seems to be a problem for you.).
Seems you believe Jesus overrode Mosaic Law too?
But he didn't... Jesus commanded all his followers (Jews and Gentiles alike) to follow the old Mosaic Law.
That's basically Shariah Law: slavery, honour killings, Draconian punishments, all the psychopathic rantings of that abominable shithead called Yahweh... any of you Americans following that? (Voting for Palin doesn't count).
One, NOWHERE in Scripture is there any such "honor killings". Two, and the point over which the no-God squad keep fumbling, is what exactly makes these edicts "Draconian"?
One minute, you keep yelping about moral evolution and "fluid morality. Yet, when that morality flows in a way you don't like, you get all testy.
...girls having long nostril hair doesn't hurt anyone; it isn't morally reprehensible; it isn't an irreconcilable injustice; it isn't an affront to basic human decency. So that's an empty argument that only shows your poor ability to draw parallels, Stella (no offence intended).
WHAT?
A better contrast would be the comparison between a godless atheist (like me) who openly speaks out against the intrinsic evils of slavery despite living in a time basically free of chattel slavery... and Jesus living in a world run on chattel slavery yet never speaking out against it.
I'd even go further and say wage slavery is also wrong... does that make me a more moral person than Jesus... I suppose technically it does.
NOT EVEN CLOSE!! One, there's no such thing as "intrinsic evil", per atheist standards, because of that pesky "moral fluidity". That's simply a man's morals flowing in a certain direction. And, if enough of them get that mindset, then you have the "moral evolution.
What makes chattel slavery "evil"? Whose rules say it's such and why, especially if other men deduce differently?
Let's take an example from Jesus' own life...
Jesus healed the daughter of a Roman centurion, then stayed for dinner. That dinner would have been served to Jesus by slaves (probably a few house slaves for a Roman centurion). So sitting there eating dinner, the centurion asks Jesus what he can do to repay him... Jesus doesn't ask anything of him... I understand that, maybe he didn't want to prostitute his super healing powers. But at the very least he could have given a little sermon about the evils of chattel slavery seeing as there would have been several chattel slaves waiting on him at the time.
Bet those slaves thought Jesus was a complete asshole.
But this brings us back to the topic of this thread... what can't god do? He can't act morally.
At best he can only meet the moral standards of the time.... the standards of those who imagine him.
Notwithanding how preposterous that statement is, what exactly makes the moral standards of the time any inferior to that of today, especially with you having NO MEASURING STICK (other than godless arrogance) to compare and contrast? I'd say that people of Jesus' say would find 21st century morality just as vile as you claim ancient morality among the Israelites was.
Let me explain...
I might be an atheist, but I understand a little bit about moral evolution and Darwinian altruism... so I can give a few examples of things that aren't considered immoral NOW... but undoubtedly will be in the future:
-the abuse of an asymmetric power relationship: a Biblical example would be God asking Mary to carry Jesus... did an uneducated 13 year-old girl feel she could actually say no to God; or a glowing Angel carrying a burning sword? Isn't it immoral to impregnate a 13 year-old even if you're the creator of the universe. This is considered immoral now, but still considered okay and moral if Yahweh does it for some reason (despite the damage such an early pregnancy does).
You can't be this cracked in the head. Why would it be immoral, if the conception is IMMACUATE (i.e. no freaky-deaky sex acts, unlike some deities we know)? Once again, you keep crying about immorality, with absolutely NO standards or rule book from which to reference.
Plus, notwithanding that Mary may not have been 13-years old (I'm not quite sure what her age was), whatever her age, IT WAS LEGAL MARRYING AGE, and certainly did NOT run afoul of Biblical law. Heck, girls in the USA can marry as young as 12 (with parental consent) in certain states.
-manipulation by threat of violence: a Biblical example would be the entire concept of judgement and infinite punishment (hell). Nowadays you often hear the threat of violence used in relation to self-defence... that won't always be considered a valid justification for violence.
So, exactly how were those who continue to disobey laws and assaault people, unprovoed, to be dealth with? You tell people to quit sacrificing women; they ignore you and keep doing it. HOW DO YOU STOP THEM, say "Pretty Please, with sugar on top"?
-ownership of private property: slavery is the most extreme Biblical example of this. Our modern economic system is based on the concept of private property rights (or should I say corporate rights to private property), but as the Earth gets more crowded and better developed such selfishness will no longer be tolerated when people understand the benefits of universally communal property and resources.
-debt... Biblically the most ridiculous debts are those of sin; innocent children killed to punish their evil-doing parents etc. Nowadays capitalism itself is based on ever escalating levels of debt, but in the future debt itself will be considered immoral; as just another form of wage slavery.
AHH!! More socialist gibberish with tons of emotion but zero substance. I don't see you, putting a gun to your hhead, trying to make extra space on this "overcrowded" planet of ours. Besides, what do your ilk plan to do about it? Dictating to people how many kids they can have, or going on a killing spree to make room?
As for your continued crying about innocent children, again, what's to be done with them? Do you leave them to starve in the desert, with no parents, or do you assimilate them (OOPS!!! you were just complaining about that not too long ago?)
And, as stated eaarlier, even in this day and age, children pay for the sins of their parents. For example, when Katrina hit the Gulf Coast in 2005, how many innocent kids DIED, becuse their bone-headed parents didn't heed the warnings and the edicts to EVACUTATE the area? How many innocent people DIED, becuase local and state officials didn't take the threats of Katrina seriously, until it was too late?
Why can't god give us future-proof morals?
Why can't god give us some sort of theory that allows us to understand the processes that produce morality itself...? Like Evolution did.
When Moses read the ten commandments from Jebul Madbh, wouldn't the smart people in the audience have tuned out when it went three commandments without any mention of rape; torture or slavery...?
Couldn't god set aside his ego long enough (the first three commandments are all about stroking his ego), to ban the big stuff:
1-Thou shalt not torture.
2-Thou shalt not rape.
3-Thou shalt not enslave.
If I'm so patently more moral than your God, why aren't you guys worshipping me?
The Luke
Because, Christians prefer to worship an entity that actually has a clue and some sense.
As for your stupid claims, it appears your ability to read has short-circuited AGAIN.
"Thou shalt not torture" That's covered in the Commandments and further exmplained in the Levitical laws.
"Thous shalt not rape"? HELLO!!!! Rape was a capital offense (something that it is NOT, now, at least not in the USA).
"Thou shall not enslave" I covered that months ago. Chattel slavery was banned. Other forms of indebtedness were based on poverty, punishment for crimes (i.e. rape), etc.
And, in case you missed it, rape, human sacrifice, chattel slavery, etc. were among the things that Israel's neighbors were doing. That's why God had the Israelites strip them of their land, in the first place.
And, He ordered the Israelites NOT to follow in their footsteps (Deut. 12:29-31). But, they disobeyed and paid the price for their disobedience.
