Unbelievable White Man Genetics...

[bigbobs]

Francois peaked at the 95 Arnold Classic and never brought quite that same form again onstage even though he continued competed for some years after that before getting sick.  Would he have regained his old shape and improved?  Possible but unlikely, especially when you consider how few pros come-back after they start going down-hill.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Seems like your criteria for judging impressiveness is how one does in their first few pro shows and the # of wins over total contests regardless of the # of contests entered into lol, pretty silly criteria.

If Nasser got his pro card in the US like Francois he likely wouldn't have gotten it until 93, his first pro show would have been 94 NOC which we arguably could have won, then of course he won the houston and NOC in 95.  Would he have been a better bodybuilder or considered having a more impressive career just because he got his pro card in the US vs. Yugoslavia?  

Bottom line Francois had about 4 year after the Mr. USA (which is already very competitive) and during that time did not /could not crack the top 6 at the Olympia although he did come close.  Not very strong indication that he would have been a star had he not gotten sick.  Lots of guys are in their best shape for their first several years after their USA win then improvements stop.  

Seems like your criteria for judging impressiveness is how one does in their first few pro shows and the # of wins over total contests regardless of the # of contests entered into lol, pretty silly criteria.

impressiveness? no contest careers which is what we're talking about yeah I know pretty silly because you don't have the stats to back up Nasser   

If Nasser got his pro card in the US like Francois he likely wouldn't have gotten it until 93, his first pro show would have been 94 NOC which we arguably could have won, then of course he won the houston and NOC in 95.  Would he have been a better bodybuilder or considered having a more impressive career just because he got his pro card in the US vs. Yugoslavia? 

I think he would have been forced to improve faster if he did try and get his pro card in the USA much stiffer competition and posts pics of Nasser's pro card win and I highly doubt he could have beat Francois ( who won it that year ) or Newman or Fletecher maybe I can't say definitively because I haven't seen the pics but admittedly he didn't have much competition in Yugoslavia

Bottom line Francois had about 4 year after the Mr. USA (which is already very competitive) and during that time did not /could not crack the top 6 at the Olympia although he did come close.  Not very strong indication that he would have been a star had he not gotten sick.  Lots of guys are in their best shape for their first several years after their USA win then improvements stop. 

You keep thinking a top 6 in the Olympia is the measure of being a star , winning his first four pro shows is something that wasn't done until Flex , so he was in outstanding company. again he was always sharper ( and improving ) in the spring shows which he won , it's as the year progressed he digressed maybe due to the injury and maybe because he was still learning his body , Nasser was a pro for five years when Mike beat him in his second pro show ever that speaks volumes

His best Olympia was 7th he had plenty of room to improve and would have been more dangerous in time

[NarcissisticDeity]

so one can't say that Francois' career was more impressive when he only entered what 9 shows, if he hadn't gotten sick his wins/# of shows would have likely decreased, same if he had entered the Grand Prix shows.  That's the problem with judging someone's career in such simple terms.  

It's more impressive that he managed to win his first 4 pro shows than Nasser , it was more impressive that he only competed in 9 shows and had almost as many wins as Nasser in 50 something , what does that tell us?

[bigbobs]

impressiveness? no contest careers which is what we're talking about yeah I know pretty silly because you don't have the stats to back up Nasser   

I think he would have been forced to improve faster if he did try and get his pro card in the USA much stiffer competition and posts pics of Nasser's pro card win and I highly doubt he could have beat Francois ( who won it that year ) or Newman or Fletecher maybe I can't say definitively because I haven't seen the pics but admittedly he didn't have much competition in Yugoslavia

You keep thinking a top 6 in the Olympia is the measure of being a star , winning his first four pro shows is something that wasn't done until Flex , so he was in outstanding company. again he was always sharper ( and improving ) in the spring shows which he won , it's as the year progressed he digressed maybe due to the injury and maybe because he was still learning his body , Nasser was a pro for five years when Mike beat him in his second pro show ever that speaks volumes

His best Olympia was 7th he had plenty of room to improve and would have been more dangerous in time

Again you keep stressing that it's noteworthy whether or not you win your first pro show or how many years it took Nasser to get in the top ranks, when in reality the difference is simply a matter of where you happen to have citizenship from which results in where you get your pro card and finally what level in your career you are at when you do finally enter your first pro show.

I never said Francois' career was not impressive, but that the claims and opinions of him held by many are far-fetched.  For example the first post in this thread said his condition was "five years" ahead of everyone else.    Or people insisting that he would have likely improved had he not gotten sick.

And I do believe Nasser's career was more impressive than Francois' because over many years he placed very high in many shows.

[Devon97]

Never understood the Francois hype.  Wasn't his highest Mr. O placing ever a 7th place, once?  I mean yeah he was good overall but to compare him to consistent top 5 Mr. Olympia placers?

He was also overrated by judges at times like the 94 NOC, what a joke decision that was.

Mike won 1st in every pro show he ever did!

[~UN_$ung~]

so one can't say that Francois' career was more impressive when he only entered what 9 shows, if he hadn't gotten sick his wins/# of shows would have likely decreased, same if he had entered the Grand Prix shows.  That's the problem with judging someone's career in such simple terms.  

nasser's career IS more impressive then mike's, im not arguing that

the point of my thread was the unrealized  genetic potential of mike, and that he quickly disappeared from the scene; had he not disappeared (got sick), i think he might have had alot more to offer

[bigbobs]

It's more impressive that he managed to win his first 4 pro shows than Nasser , it was more impressive that he only competed in 9 shows and had almost as many wins as Nasser in 50 something , what does that tell us?

Ever take statistics?  Its hard to judge when you have a small sample (i.e. only 9 shows), and for like the 3rd time or so Francois got his pro card in the US which  forced him to be near the top of his career in his first pro show, as opposed to Nasser who was early in his career when he won the pro card from Yugoslavia - purely a result of their citizenships not of their level of physique.

[bigbobs]

nasser's career IS more impressive then mike's, im not arguing that

the point of my thread was the unrealized  genetic potential of mike, and that he quickly disappeared from the scene; had he not disappeared (got sick), i think he might have had alot more to offer

Okay, putting all the Nasser vs. Francois comparisons behind for now, what do you think of the posts I made above, that Francois peaked in 95 - actually even you said earlier that his NPC Nationals performance was more impressive, meaning his pro shows he was going downhill and he had several years after the NPC Nat's to improve but didn't, and how many pros do you know who peak, then degress for 3-4 years then are able to improve again and unlock some hidden potential?

[~UN_$ung~]

Okay, putting all the Nasser vs. Francois comparisons behind for now, what do you think of the posts I made above, that Francois peaked in 95 - actually even you said earlier that his NPC Nationals performance was more impressive, meaning his pro shows he was going downhill and he had several years after the NPC Nat's to improve but didn't, and how many pros do you know who peak, then degress for 3-4 years then are able to improve again and unlock some hidden potential?

i dont knwo its hard to say, i think one can argue that condition wise he came pretty close to peaking at nationals....thats not to say he conditioning in his best pro wins was not superb.  now im no francois expert (thats why i started this thread, cause i dont know much about him , but like his genetics) but it does look like he put on some mass after turning pro, so his conditioning was not as spot on as it was when he won nats.

but who knows when the first signs of his health problems began to manifest (which could be responsible for some of the drop off you speak of)

but i agree with you regardless that nassers career is much more impressive then mike's when compared, but had he not gotten sick , who knows, i personally think his genetics are some of the nest i have even seen on a white man

[NarcissisticDeity]

Again you keep stressing that it's noteworthy whether or not you win your first pro show or how many years it took Nasser to get in the top ranks, when in reality the difference is simply a matter of where you happen to have citizenship from which results in where you get your pro card and finally what level in your career you are at when you do finally enter your first pro show.

I never said Francois' career was not impressive, but that the claims and opinions of him held by many are far-fetched.  For example the first post in this thread said his condition was "five years" ahead of everyone else.    Or people insisting that he would have likely improved had he not gotten sick.

And I do believe Nasser's career was more impressive than Francois' because over many years he placed very high in many shows.

Again you keep stressing that it's noteworthy whether or not you win your first pro show or how many years it took Nasser to get in the top ranks, when in reality the difference is simply a matter of where you happen to have citizenship from which results in where you get your pro card and finally what level in your career you are at when you do finally enter your first pro show.

No the difference is how good you are in order to walk into your first professional contest and beat many established pros in the process , it's very rare it happens that someone is so advanced , Nasser wasn't this good it took him years to improve

I never said Francois' career was not impressive, but that the claims and opinions of him held by many are far-fetched.  For example the first post in this thread said his condition was "five years" ahead of everyone else.     Or people insisting that he would have likely improved had he not gotten sick.

Obviously I don't agree he was five years ahead but the fact was he was improving up until the time he quit , look at pics of him from the nationals and then the pros that I posted , he was improving and doing well until he got sick in fact top 3 ( twice )  in his last three contests ( behind Nasser ) ironically Nasser didn't get sick and got worse 

And I do believe Nasser's career was more impressive than Francois' because over many years he placed very high in many shows.

if that's the only aspect you wanna go by then sure lets forget Mike didn't get sick , and he won 2 less contests in 40s less tries , Nasser was better because he was more consistent LMFAO

[haider]

MEN IN THONGS IS SERIOUS FUCKING BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!

[bigbobs]

i dont knwo its hard to say, i think one can argue that condition wise he came pretty close to peaking at nationals....thats not to say he conditioning in his best pro wins was not superb.  now im no francois expert (thats why i started this thread, cause i dont know much about him , but like his genetics) but it does look like he put on some mass after turning pro, so his conditioning was not as spot on as it was when he won nats.

but who knows when the first signs of his health problems began to manifest (which could be responsible for some of the drop off you speak of)

but i agree with you regardless that nassers career is much more impressive then mike's when compared, but had he not gotten sick , who knows, i personally think his genetics are some of the nest i have even seen on a white man

Ha, that last part made me laugh a bit

[bigbobs]

No the difference is how good you are in order to walk into your first professional contest and beat many established pros in the process , it's very rare it happens that someone is so advanced , Nasser wasn't this good it took him years to improve

Obviously I don't agree he was five years ahead but the fact was he was improving up until the time he quit , look at pics of him from the nationals and then the pros that I posted , he was improving and doing well until he got sick in fact top 3 ( twice )  in his last three contests ( behind Nasser ) ironically Nasser didn't get sick and got worse 

if that's the only aspect you wanna go by then sure lets forget Mike didn't get sick , and he won 2 less contests in 40s less tries , Nasser was better because he was more consistent LMFAO

For the fourth or fifth time your performance in your first pro show largely depends on where your citizenship is from.  If Nasser had to get his pro card in the USA's its very likely he would have won his first pro show that doesnt make him any more or less impressive.  I judge on how their physique is in their prime, not how many years after getting your pro card it took to reach your prime, because you are at a different point in your career when you get your pro card depending on what country you are from. 

[NarcissisticDeity]

For the fourth or fifth time your performance in your first pro show largely depends on where your citizenship is from.  If Nasser had to get his pro card in the USA's its very likely he would have won his first pro show that doesnt make him any more or less impressive.  I judge on how their physique is in their prime, not how many years after getting your pro card it took to reach your prime, because you are at a different point in your career when you get your pro card depending on what country you are from. 

No he would not have most likely won his first pro show , you fail to understand how rare this is ! you're speculating that Francois hit his prime , NOT likely

Mike accomplished almost as much as Nasser in much less time 4 wins in 9 contests vs Nasser and his 6 in 50-something tries , he career was cut short due to health reasons so who knows what more he could have accomplished

[bigbobs]

No he would not have most likely won his first pro show , you fail to understand how rare this is ! you're speculating that Francois hit his prime , NOT likely

Mike accomplished almost as much as Nasser in much less time 4 wins in 9 contests vs Nasser and his 6 in 50-something tries , he career was cut short due to health reasons so who knows what more he could have accomplished

Obviously no one can say for sure but I think it's more likely than not that he would not have become a Mr. Olympia or even top 3 Mr. Olympia competitor if he continued.  Just my opinion and I've given my support earlier, you've given yours.  

On the "winning your first pro show" Yes I know its rare but I still believe Nasser would have likely won his first pro show...had he been American and got it in 94 he would have definitely won his first pro show (95 Houston/NOC) and even if he got in 93 I think he could have won his 1st pro show (94 NOC which we debated earlier).

Nasser's many 2nd and 3rds placings also count for a lot in such a competitive era.  29 top 3 placings in 31 shows over 4 years  Even if you scratch out 96 that's 28 in 30 - pretty consistent over that span.

Question - was Francois sick during his 95 Olympia prep?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Obviously no one can say for sure but I think it's more likely than not that he would not have become a Mr. Olympia or even top 3 Mr. Olympia competitor if he continued.  Just my opinion and I've given my support earlier, you've given yours.  

On the "winning your first pro show" Yes I know its rare but I still believe Nasser would have likely won his first pro show...had he been American and got it in 94 he would have definitely won his first pro show (95 Houston/NOC) and even if he got in 93 I think he could have won his 1st pro show (94 NOC which we debated earlier).

Nasser's many 2nd and 3rds placings also count for a lot in such a competitive era.  29 top 3 placings in 31 shows over 4 years  Even if you scratch out 96 that's 28 in 30 - pretty consistent over that span.

Question - was Francois sick during his 95 Olympia prep?

Obviously no one can say for sure but I think it's more likely than not that he would not have become a Mr. Olympia or even top 3 Mr. Olympia competitor if he continued.  Just my opinion and I've given my support earlier, you've given yours.

Mr Olympia? doubtful then again no one pegged Ronnie

On the "winning your first pro show" Yes I know its rare but I still believe Nasser would have likely won his first pro show...had he been American and got it in 94 he would have definitely won his first pro show (95 Houston/NOC) and even if he got in 93 I think he could have won his 1st pro show (94 NOC which we debated earlier).

who knows more speculation , it's doubtful though

Nasser's many 2nd and 3rds placings also count for a lot in such a competitive era.  29 top 3 placings in 31 shows over 4 years   Even if you scratch out 96 that's 28 in 30 - pretty consistent over that span.

Nasser beats him in consistency , but Mike nearly matched his career wins in his first two years that's more impressive , Mike can in like a shooting star and faded most like due to his sickness , Nasser was slow and steady but in the end he only had two more wins in 40 something tries not that impressive

and I'm not sure when Mike illness started

[Palpatine Q]

Francois was better than Nasser in my book. Nasser had a much longer and rewarding career....but if we are just talking physiques, i think mike was better.

Just as massive, better lines and his back absolutely crushed Nasser's.  Who knows how great he could have been, that's pure speculation. But when Francois was in his prime he was considered one of the very best

[~UN_$ung~]

Francois was better than Nasser in my book. Nasser had a much longer and rewarding career....but if we are just talking physiques, i think mike was better.

Just as massive, better lines and his back absolutely crushed Nasser's.  Who knows how great he could have been, that's pure speculation. But when Francois was in his prime he was considered one of the very best

my sentiments exactly...

[mwbbuilder]

Ok, you've convinced us! nasser wins------------------------16 years later.

BigBobs:

Mike Mentzer's legacy in bodybuilding is that his is a cry baby who never got over being beaten by Arnold in the Olympia. It's too bad because he had thousands of followers of Heavy Duty and make a few million dollars along the way--and his legacy is a cray baby.

GetBig is massively popular in the bodybuilding community around the world.

I predict that you have single handedly solidified Nasser's reputation and legacy as a bitter, complaining most hated bitch in the international bodybuilding community.

What a shame.

Nasser, if you have any part in all of this. Shame on you.

[Coach is Back!]

we forget what a superb bodybuilder mike francois was, literally no weak points.

other then that he won some pro shows, most notable the ASC in the mid 90s i dont know much about him........can anyone fill us in?

why didnt he ever get more notoriety?  why did his career end early?  why was his talent not fully realized?




(on a side note, notice this clip:  the ASC was being presented on ESPN )

 

this nationals appearance is even more impressive.....

In his offseason, he trained with Louie Simmons at Westside barbell.

[bigbobs]

Mr Olympia? doubtful then again no one pegged Ronnie

who knows more speculation , it's doubtful though

Nasser beats him in consistency , but Mike nearly matched his career wins in his first two years that's more impressive , Mike can in like a shooting star and faded most like due to his sickness , Nasser was slow and steady but in the end he only had two more wins in 40 something tries not that impressive

and I'm not sure when Mike illness started

You can hand-pick certain stats all you want, fact is Nasser and Francois competed against each other many times while both were at their best or near best, and Francois only beat him once (94 NOC) which was quite contraversial.  You'll never read any reports that Nasser and Francois were close in any of the other shows they competed together in. 

[bigbobs]

Francois was better than Nasser in my book. Nasser had a much longer and rewarding career....but if we are just talking physiques, i think mike was better.

Just as massive, better lines and his back absolutely crushed Nasser's.  Who knows how great he could have been, that's pure speculation. But when Francois was in his prime he was considered one of the very best

Just as massive are you kidding me?!  In 94, before Nasser grew a lot, he's still dwarfing Francois in most shots.  And better lines? wtf.    Look at the pictures again I'm too lazy to repost them but I can if pushed

[Palpatine Q]

Just as massive are you kidding me?!  In 94, before Nasser grew a lot, he's still dwarfing Francois in most shots.  And better lines? wtf.    Look at the pictures again I'm too lazy to repost them but I can if pushed

Nasser carried a bit more size but IMO Francois was much more detailed, rounder, had better muscle quality and had absolutely no weak points on a better structure.

I simply prefer his physique.....you are last person I expect to agree with me.

[bigbobs]

Nasser carried a bit more size but IMO Francois was much more detailed, rounder, had better muscle quality and had absolutely no weak points on a better structure.

I simply prefer his physique.....you are last person I expect to agree with me.

You're just throwing random words out now   It's hard to find comparisons of Nasser and Francois since they were hardly even called out together after 94   Couldn't even fit the two on the same row in the 95 mag 

[clued-up]

Yes, awesome white man genetics. Look at that shot.. incredible. Too bad he got sick.