Quote from: Necrosis on April 03, 2010, 06:54:56 PM
energy could very well be eternal, eternal is referring to time, infinite refers to size different dimensions. There is no reason space cannot be finite, why would you think there is? in cosmology it is known based on mathematics that the universe is expanding into nothing, by definition the universe is all that exists.
space is finite? the universe is ALL that exists? the universe contains that which is not spacial? if space is finite, what is "outside" of space?
Nothing, read some cosmology. Your necessity for something to be outside of space is unfounded and frankly an impossible assumption, because by definition we can never examine something outside the universe as it is all that exists by definition. You are merely stating an opinion based on no axioms, on a failed assumption that doesn't need to be made. I could then just say whats outside that which is outside the universe? you have given no reason why something needs to be outside the universe, or why that thing is exempt from your rules, the rules you applied to the universe.
"There would have to be something outside of God? well, the concept of God... an eternal, infinite, supremely good being.. If you accept his existence, then there is no need for something outside of God. "
well an sentient being living in eternity makes no sense, how could he act? action is a temporal term. If he is infinite then he is not whole, its obvious he is not supremely good.
action in reference to God is anthropomorphizing God. you think of action in terms of mechanics, some kind of surface must touch another surface.. God doesn't reside nor 'act' within space or as matter.
WHY? how do you know this. I do not know this and since i do not you cannot. You can know nothing about a god that lives in eternity, is omnipotent, omniscent and infinite. You can't so your rules for god make no sense. Why is there a need for a god? what does he help explain?
I also dont accept your definiton of god, you have to prove these qualities based on axioms, that some super powerful sentient being lives outside the universe, in eternity creating everything. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed as you put it, hence it always was. You somehow misconstrued this to ask the question who created the thing that cannot be created ie energy?
obviously there isnt much argument left here.. all i can do is share my thoughts and opinions with you to shed light on my reasoning.
energy has never been. we observe it within this physical, spacial realm.. but this realm itself is a construct from God, and it isnt really real, just a place for God to develop minds.
not sure what you mean when you say energy has never been, there is no evidence for that. Your second sentence is merely conjecture that really is a wild assumption with no evidence at all. This realm has to be real or accepted as such, it is the primary axiom we use to make decisions, discover and live. You accept it whether you know it or not.
There is no good reason to believe in god, and no good argument either. However, there are numerous good arguments against.
also based on quantum mechanics something can come from nothing, further lessening gods need.
this doesnt lessen a need for God. something had to have came from nothing, cuz we are here correct? thats a given. God is the prime mover, the ultimate cause. science observes the laws he put into effect for this world
Saying god is the prime mover complicates the matter, we have experiments showing virtual particles popping into existence in a vaccum, why then do you need to add a god? it complicates the question. You are adding a super intelligent, hypercomplex being to explain the complexity of life. Based on that logic, that complex things require creators, god requires a creator since he is even more complex. Adding god MAKES NO SENSE.
We know that things tend to get more complex as we go along, so what you guys are prosposing is the exact opposite, before even the simplest thing there was the most complex thing ever ie god, it again is non sensical
things dont ALWAYS get more complex. thats a fallacy. nevertheless, even if it was the case, argument at all againsthat wouldnt be any t God. Humans had to evolve in a world with zero intelligence or life. out of nothing but lifeless particles. the only possible way for that evoltuion to take place is a slow gradual movement from simple to complex. that doesnt say anything about the eternal order of things, but only that within this physical world complex beings can not come into existence naturally without some logical, mechanical pathway
How is that a fallacy, things tend to complexity via bootstrapping among other mechanisms. The universe started out small and increased in complexity, life the same way, technology the same way. why is god exempt from this?You cant say anything about the eternal order of things, because we live in a temporal world, stating things about eternity are mere conjectures except for the fact that it is timeless. How would that seem, well we have no idea as we cant fathom it, does it exist? not sure.
