Dorian Yates - overrated!

[JP_RC]

I never said it was , I said it's a fact the criteria favors Yates and statistically Dorian would beat Ronnie 

I said almost none , please show me where I said ' not possible ' he could think Ronnie 99 was better because he didn't have bitch tits , and in fact the point still stands his conditioning in 99 wasn't as good you can argue all you'd like to the contrary it doesn't change it

98/01 are very similar with the exception of bitch tits 249lbs in 98 , 247lbs in 01 , and totally dried out and hard as nails unlike 99 take your pick it's among the reasons why most think either are his best and next to nobody says 99


already been addressed a billion times over , see popular opinion and you'll get no argument from me it's more popular that people believe Ronnie is better


I'm not trying to pass them off as facts , merely alternatives to a popular opinion , learn the difference. and I learn the difference between between subjective and non-subjective topics , who is the better of the two from two different eras is very subjective

Again did you miss the part where I said technically he is? did Dorian ever compete at that body weight at an Olympia? NO and again you're bitching about Paul not being a bright guy and then have the audacity to post Flex Wheeler as a credible source? LMFAO

Shawn Perine Ironage  May 9 2009

Although I prefer the Reeves-Zane-Paris physique, I still contend that there was never a more complete, muscular human being to walk the earth than Dorian on the day Kevin Horton shot him pre-93 O. I was never so shocked by a set of bodybuilding photos as when I went through that article. Even Ronnie at his best, lacked Dorian's hardness and certainly his calves.

Even Ronnie at his best lacked Dorian's hardness

Kevin Horoton GetBig Dec 30th

The photo is technically terrible, fortunately the physique is awesome.
I'd agree with Kris about Dorian showing up on stage how he looked a few weeks out. There are some shots of him at around 280 - 285 shredded. That conditioning has not been surpassed.

Dorian shredded at 280-285 lbs and that conditioning HAS NOT BEEN SURPASSED !

you think Flex Wheeler negates these people? or Dorian who said specifically on this subject he was better conditioned that Ronnie?

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.

or this ? Ronnie was NEVER drier or HARDER than Dorian

it's apparent Ronnie couldn't touch Dorian in terms of conditioning period. and I've always entertained that perhaps he did and I was doing this for argument's sake it would only be at his lightest 98/01 any fool with half a brain and see his conditioning while good in 03 was NO WHERE near it was in 01/98

I never said it was , I said it's a fact the criteria favors Yates and statistically Dorian would beat Ronnie 

Oh dear........you're splitting hairs here.

already been addressed a billion times over , see popular opinion and you'll get no argument from me it's more popular that people believe Ronnie is better

Is it popular opinion when it doesn't suit your agenda?

I'm not trying to pass them off as facts , merely alternatives to a popular opinion , learn the difference. and I learn the difference between between subjective and non-subjective topics , who is the better of the two from two different eras is very subjective

True, its all subjective opinion. But you were the first to start posting quotes from "experts" to prove Dorian is better than Ronnie. I was just trying to show some other expert opinion that say the opposite.

Again did you miss the part where I said technically he is? did Dorian ever compete at that body weight at an Olympia? NO and again you're bitching about Paul not being a bright guy and then have the audacity to post Flex Wheeler as a credible source? LMFAO

You didn't get the point of my original post did you?

Shawn Perine Ironage  May 9 2009

Although I prefer the Reeves-Zane-Paris physique, I still contend that there was never a more complete, muscular human being to walk the earth than Dorian on the day Kevin Horton shot him pre-93 O. I was never so shocked by a set of bodybuilding photos as when I went through that article. Even Ronnie at his best, lacked Dorian's hardness and certainly his calves.

Even Ronnie at his best lacked Dorian's hardness

Kevin Horoton GetBig Dec 30th

The photo is technically terrible, fortunately the physique is awesome.
I'd agree with Kris about Dorian showing up on stage how he looked a few weeks out. There are some shots of him at around 280 - 285 shredded. That conditioning has not been surpassed.

Dorian shredded at 280-285 lbs and that conditioning HAS NOT BEEN SURPASSED !

you think Flex Wheeler negates these people? or Dorian who said specifically on this subject he was better conditioned that Ronnie?

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.

or this ? Ronnie was NEVER drier or HARDER than Dorian

it's apparent Ronnie couldn't touch Dorian in terms of conditioning period. and I've always entertained that perhaps he did and I was doing this for argument's sake it would only be at his lightest 98/01 any fool with half a brain and see his conditioning while good in 03 was NO WHERE near it was in 01/98

Wait a minute.....isn't this popular opinion too?
Isn't it popular opinion that Dorian was harder or drier than Ronnie? According to your logic about the quotes I posted, it is.

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

notice how dorian has to be in offseason size to even compete.

onstage, when dieted down, his arms always appeared too small for his huge torso

in offseason mode, it was not as noticable IMO. but then again he was larger overall so..

1995 would murder Ronnie 

[JP_RC]

Evidentley he thinks so. And I agree.
You and Hulkster, you guys think that pics are some sort of definitive evidence. Like shows are judged by pics, and that theyre judged by what YOU guys thinks looks best.
It has nothing to do with what you think looks best.

lol, you guys are the ones that started posting pics first. I was just responding with your own "tool", pics.

[Hulkster]

You and Hulkster, you guys think that pics are some sort of definitive evidence

truly spoken like someone who knows dorian is not as good, but needs an excuse to save him anyway..

well played.

can pics be misleading sometimes? of course they can.

but in the case of this debate, when you have literally hundreds of pics, videos etc its a little naive to try and believe its all wrong.

I will take the visual evidence of pics and videos over erroneous human opinion that can be motived by so many other things, most of which have nothing to do with the physique at hand.

eg. McGough is a fellow Englishman and good friend of Yates.

you think he is going to talk bad about his physique even if it is warranted? fuck no.

but  the camera, well, the camera does not care.

[Hulkster]

Oh dear........you're splitting hairs here.

Is it popular opinion when it doesn't suit your agenda?

True, its all subjective opinion. But you were the first to start posting quotes from "experts" to prove Dorian is better than Ronnie. I was just trying to show some other expert opinion that say the opposite.

You didn't get the point of my original post did you?

Wait a minute.....isn't this popular opinion too?
Isn't it popular opinion that Dorian was harder or drier than Ronnie? According to your logic about the quotes I posted, it is.

 

man, you are totally owning ND here.

[Hulkster]

You didn't get the point of my original post did you?

as you saw from  my posts earlier, they never get the point.. it goes right over their heads.

[JP_RC]

Better than 99 BY FAR  in fact better than ANY Ronnie

 

[JP_RC]

onstage, when dieted down, his arms always appeared too small for his huge torso

True. 

[Hulkster]

1995 would murder Ronnie 

nope:

[JP_RC]

nope:

Exactly and a little more:

[Shockwave]

truly spoken like someone who knows dorian is not as good, but needs an excuse to save him anyway..

well played.

can pics be misleading sometimes? of course they can.

but in the case of this debate, when you have literally hundreds of pics, videos etc its a little naive to try and believe its all wrong.

I will take the visual evidence of pics and videos over erroneous human opinion that can be motived by so many other things, most of which have nothing to do with the physique at hand.

eg. McGough is a fellow Englishman and good friend of Yates.

you think he is going to talk bad about his physique even if it is warranted? fuck no.

but  the camera, well, the camera does not care.

What the fuck are you even blabering about?
Werent you owned hard enough with your sharpened pics and your "independant" sources? Lol.
Contests are not judged by pics, and you try and use them as irrefutable evidence, when its plainly clear two different people can look at those pics and have 2 entirely different opinions.  
Youre opionion doesnt matter in the slightest, and even with youre little "hulkster world" where things are only turth when they support your viewpoint, it doesnt change the fact that your a delusional dbag.

[Shockwave]

True. 

LOL.
Dorian > Ronnie tough in that shot.
Dorian arms looking pretty damn decent there,
Ronnie with NO calves, fucked up abs and midsection, etc

[JP_RC]

as you saw from  my posts earlier, they never get the point.. it goes right over their heads.

Yes, I'm beginning to realize that.

[FREAKgeek]

Better than 99 BY FAR  in fact better than ANY Ronnie

 

[JP_RC]

LOL.
Dorian > Ronnie tough in that shot.
Dorian arms looking pretty damn decent there,
Ronnie with NO calves, fucked up abs and midsection, etc

I don't see it like that.

Ronnie has a fucked up midsection because his abs are oddly shaped? How about Dorian's quads? Its the same. His left bicep is also shaped considerably different than his right.

Ronnie has no calves? How about Dorian's arms getting a bit overpowered by his back/torso?

Do you honestly believe Dorian is bigger than Ronnie in that pic despite his bodyweight?
Is his conditioning that much better?

Overall, Ronnie wins that shot.

[FREAKgeek]

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Oh dear........you're splitting hairs here.

Is it popular opinion when it doesn't suit your agenda?

True, its all subjective opinion. But you were the first to start posting quotes from "experts" to prove Dorian is better than Ronnie. I was just trying to show some other expert opinion that say the opposite.

You didn't get the point of my original post did you?

Wait a minute.....isn't this popular opinion too?
Isn't it popular opinion that Dorian was harder or drier than Ronnie? According to your logic about the quotes I posted, it is.

 

Oh dear........you're splitting hairs here.

no I'm not , don't make claims I never typed , there is an obvious difference between the two

Is it popular opinion when it doesn't suit your agenda?

No it's a popular opinion when many people agree on a subjective subject , especially on the topic of whose better from two differing eras

True, its all subjective opinion. But you were the first to start posting quotes from "experts" to prove Dorian is better than Ronnie. I was just trying to show some other expert opinion that say the opposite.

only in NON-SUBJECTIVE areas such as conditioning or balance. and again Flex is an ' expert ' lmao Paul is not the brightest yet you're hoisting Flex up as an ' expert ' lmfao

You didn't get the point of my original post did you?

apparently not

Wait a minute.....isn't this popular opinion too?
Isn't it popular opinion that Dorian was harder or drier than Ronnie? According to your logic about the quotes I posted, it is.

NOT really , where is all the quotes saying the opposite? where is the slew of quotes claiming Ronnie was specifically better than Dorian in hardness & dryness? and the subject of conditioning isn't subjective , either a guy is in shape or he's not , either one guy has a clear advantage in this area of he doesn't there's no guessing on this subject same with balance & proportion and symmetry , either one guys waist & hips are narrower than the other or they're not

[NarcissisticDeity]

as you saw from  my posts earlier, they never get the point.. it goes right over their heads.

yeah I'm still trying to get your point that Dorian lost the 1993 Mr Olympia 

[mesmorph78]

Dorian  good back
good calves
that's it

[ShipSekki]

Dorian  good back
good calves
that's it

 But he's white. So those cracker white boys support him.

[NarcissisticDeity]

 

Dorian still wins 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Dorian  good back
good calves
that's it

wow that's it  how did he win 6 Sandows? and it should have been real easy for Ronnie to beat him and he always failed , Gee I wonder why 

[Mr.1derful]

wow that's it  how did he win 6 Sandows? and it should have been real easy for Ronnie to beat him and he always failed , Gee I wonder why 

What's ironic, is that Huckster, in reference to Yates' showing in that contest, asserted that Ronnie would be made to wonder why a Nationals level competitor would be on stage with the pros.  What then, would that make Ronnie, being that he is getting supremely owned there? 

[NarcissisticDeity]

What's ironic, is that Huckster, in reference to Yates' showing in that contest, asserted that Ronnie would be made to wonder why a Nationals level competitor would be on stage with the pros.  What then, would that make Ronnie, being that he is getting supremely owned there? 

If all he had was a back & calves why didn't anyone beat him?  Ronnie wasn't even close to Yates

[JP_RC]

no I'm not , don't make claims I never typed , there is an obvious difference between the two

No it's a popular opinion when many people agree on a subjective subject , especially on the topic of whose better from two differing eras

only in NON-SUBJECTIVE areas such as conditioning or balance. and again Flex is an ' expert ' lmao Paul is not the brightest yet you're hoisting Flex up as an ' expert ' lmfao

apparently not

NOT really , where is all the quotes saying the opposite? where is the slew of quotes claiming Ronnie was specifically better than Dorian in hardness & dryness? and the subject of conditioning isn't subjective , either a guy is in shape or he's not , either one guy has a clear advantage in this area of he doesn't there's no guessing on this subject same with balance & proportion and symmetry , either one guys waist & hips are narrower than the other or they're not

no I'm not , don't make claims I never typed , there is an obvious difference between the two

So you are not saying its a fact that Dorian would beat Ronnie, but you're saying its a fact Dorian meets the criteria better and thus would "statistically" beat Ronnie?
Yes, there is a big difference there ........splitting hairs to me.

again Flex is an ' expert ' lmao Paul is not the brightest yet you're hoisting Flex up as an ' expert ' lmfao

apparently not

You were the first to quote Paul, Samir, Lee Priest, etc. I was just trying to show how different pro bodybuilders have different opinions on the subject (Wheeler, Matarazzo, etc.). As you said, it can go either way.

No it's a popular opinion when many people agree on a subjective subject , especially on the topic of whose better from two differing eras

only in NON-SUBJECTIVE areas such as conditioning or balance.

and the subject of conditioning isn't subjective , either a guy is in shape or he's not , either one guy has a clear advantage in this area of he doesn't

When you compare a bodybuilder to himself, then of course things like conditioning, size, etc. are not subjective, since you can clearly see if a bodybuilder is in shape or not, if he is full & big or not, etc.
When you start comparing two or more bodybuilders and this comparison is close, then something like conditioning can be subjective.

there's no guessing on this subject same with balance & proportion and symmetry , either one guys waist & hips are narrower than the other or they're not

Really? I recall you saying that symmetry is subjective since different people have different opinions on it. You even used quotes from Lee  Priest and Bev Francis to show how symmetry can change depending on the context. If it can change depending on the context, different people's opinion, then its subjective.
Do you know I can show how balance & proportion is subjective too going by your logic? Here it goes:

Sergio Oliva said Dorian's proportion was terrible and he is a probodybuilder, but Bev Francis said Dorian's proportion was great. This shows how a bodybuilder's balance & proportion can also change in different people's opinions.
I simply used Sergio Oliva instead of Lee Priest. Again going by your logic, which in this case I agree, proportions are also subjective.

NOT really , where is all the quotes saying the opposite? where is the slew of quotes claiming Ronnie was specifically better than Dorian in hardness & dryness?

Apart from the Flex quote, I don't know any more. Still, why aren't these quotes you posted of Dorian being harder popular opinion as the quotes of Ronnie being the best?