Author Topic: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That  (Read 1801 times)

Al Doggity

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In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« on: June 22, 2010, 08:31:23 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/business/22law.html?ref=education

One day next month every student at Loyola Law School Los Angeles will awake to a higher grade point average.
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      Times Topic: Legal Profession

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Mark Graham for The New York Times

A Dallas law firm will be paid for employing Zachary Burd, who graduated from Southern Methodist University’s law school.


But it’s not because they are all working harder.

The school is retroactively inflating its grades, tacking on 0.333 to every grade recorded in the last few years. The goal is to make its students look more attractive in a competitive job market.

In the last two years, at least 10 law schools have deliberately changed their grading systems to make them more lenient. These include law schools like New York University and Georgetown, as well as Golden Gate University and Tulane University, which just announced the change this month. Some recruiters at law firms keep track of these changes and consider them when interviewing, and some do not.

Law schools seem to view higher grades as one way to rescue their students from the tough economic climate — and perhaps more to the point, to protect their own reputations and rankings. Once able to practically guarantee gainful employment to thousands of students every year, the schools are now fielding complaints from more and more unemployed graduates, frequently drowning in student debt.

They have come up with a number of strategic responses. Besides the usual career counseling measures, many top schools have bumped up their on-campus interview weeks from the autumn to August, before the school year even starts, because they want their students to have a chance to nab a job slot before their counterparts at other schools do.

Others, like Duke and the University of Texas at Austin, offer stipends for students to take unpaid public interest internships. Southern Methodist University’s Dedman School of Law even recently began paying profit-making law firms to hire its students.

“For people like me who have good grades but are not in the super-elite, there are not as many options for getting a job in advance,” said Zachary Burd, 35, who just graduated from Southern Methodist University. A Dallas family law firm will receive $3,500 to “test drive” him this August.

“They’ll get me for a month or two, for free, to try me out,” he said. “It’s safer for them, and it’s a good foot in the door for me.”

But the tactic getting the most attention — and the most controversy — is the sudden, deliberate and dubiously effective grade inflation, which had begun even before the legal job market softened.

“If somebody’s paying $150,000 for a law school degree, you don’t want to call them a loser at the end,” says Stuart Rojstaczer, a former geophysics professor at Duke who now studies grade inflation. “So you artificially call every student a success.”

Unlike undergraduate grading, which has drifted northward over the years because most undergraduate campuses do not strictly regulate the schoolwide distribution of As and Bs, law schools have long employed clean, crisp, bell-shaped grading curves. Many law schools even use computers to mathematically determine cutoffs between a B+ and a B, based on exam points.

The process schools refer to as grade reform takes many forms. Some schools bump up everyone’s grades, some just allow for more As and others all but eliminate the once-gentlemanly C.

Harvard and Stanford, two of the top-ranked law schools, recently eliminated traditional grading altogether. Like Yale and the University of California, Berkeley, they now use a modified pass/fail system, reducing the pressure that law schools are notorious for. This new grading system also makes it harder for employers to distinguish the wheat from the chaff, which means more students can get a shot at a competitive interview.

Students and faculty say they are merely trying to stay competitive with their peer schools, which have more merciful grading curves. Loyola, for example, had a mean first-year grade of 2.667; the norm for other accredited California schools is generally a 3.0 or higher.

“That put our students at an unfair disadvantage, especially if you factor in the current economic environment,” says Samuel Liu, 26, president of the school’s Student Bar Association and the leader of the grading change efforts. He also says many Loyola students are ineligible for coveted clerkships that have strict G.P.A. cutoffs.

“We just wanted to match what other schools that are comparably ranked were already doing,” he said.

Nearby University of California, Los Angeles, made its grading curve more lenient in the fall of 2005, in part to keep up with “nationwide shifts in grading,” said Elizabeth Cheadle, the dean of students at U.C.L.A.’s law school.

The University of Southern California and the University of California Hastings College of the Law responded by increasing their own curves last school year.

What’s more, U.S.C.’s law school dean, Robert K. Rasmussen, said he was partly inspired by the school where he previously worked, Vanderbilt University Law School, which had also changed its curve a few years ago.

These moves can create a vicious cycle like that seen in chief executive pay: if every school in the bottom half of the distribution raises its marks to enter the top half of the distribution, or even just to become average, the average creeps up. This puts pressure on schools to keep raising their grades further.

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 08:39:09 AM »
“If somebody’s paying $150,000 for a law school degree, you don’t want to call them a loser at the end,” says Stuart Rojstaczer, a former geophysics professor at Duke who now studies grade inflation. “So you artificially call every student a success.”

________________________ _________


Having gone through law school myself, I think this is ridiculous.  Law school is not that hard to begin with.  Its a lot of reading and studying.  The most important thing is that you pass the bar exam and learn some basic skills to actually function as a lwayer in the real world.   

IMHO the most pertinent issues are as follows: 

1.  Cost of education is insane.
2.  Most students have insane expectations largely fed by the school faculty and admissions' office.
3.  Most schools dont prepare students for actual general practice. 

Most students are not going to White Shoe law firms after school and have to function in the real world like myself.  I was unemployed for a year after school until getting a $10 an hour job, despite passing the NY bar the first time and scoring very high in school.  My cousin vinny does not play too well in Stein, Goldberg, Hochberg, & rosenstein if you catch my drift. 

So, I spent two years being thrown into the fire learning shit on my own before going out on my own. 

Its rough and you either sink or swim.  Most of these schools are not preparing these students to have the killer shark mentality and its only going to hurt the kids. 

     

BayGBM

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 10:13:20 AM »
“If somebody’s paying $150,000 for a law school degree, you don’t want to call them a loser at the end,” says Stuart Rojstaczer, a former geophysics professor at Duke who now studies grade inflation. “So you artificially call every student a success.”

________________________ _________


Having gone through law school myself, I think this is ridiculous.  Law school is not that hard to begin with.  Its a lot of reading and studying.  The most important thing is that you pass the bar exam and learn some basic skills to actually function as a lwayer in the real world.   

IMHO the most pertinent issues are as follows: 

1.  Cost of education is insane.
2.  Most students have insane expectations largely fed by the school faculty and admissions' office.
3.  Most schools dont prepare students for actual general practice. 

Most students are not going to White Shoe law firms after school and have to function in the real world like myself.  I was unemployed for a year after school until getting a $10 an hour job, despite passing the NY bar the first time and scoring very high in school.  My cousin vinny does not play too well in Stein, Goldberg, Hochberg, & rosenstein if you catch my drift. 

So, I spent two years being thrown into the fire learning shit on my own before going out on my own. 

Its rough and you either sink or swim.  Most of these schools are not preparing these students to have the killer shark mentality and its only going to hurt the kids. 

     

So true.... Guilty as charged.  :-X

tonymctones

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 11:01:51 AM »
shit id be right under a 4.0, thats horse shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as long as we are making up grades i have a 9.8 GPA  ::) ::) ::)

more and more school is becoming only part of what you need to get a job and honestly right now in this economy its not even the most important part...I think employers look at degrees as potential ability so if they stay with the company long enough the potential that this person will advance is higher than someone without a degree...

but right now I think companies are much more in favor of ppl with experience with a degree or without one as they dont want to take the time or money right now to train anyone. You need to be able to hit the ground running and make a difference immediately.

a sad fact for ppl coming out of college right now...

George Whorewell

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2010, 02:19:04 PM »
Unfortunetly, padding gpa's like that only happens at the "really good" law schools and the ones that are so shitty, nobody would care or notice. If you attended a good law school that isn't Harvard or Yale, but that also isn't a third tier shitshow, chances are you didn't recieve the artificial benefit of the inflated curve.

One thing people do not realize, ( and that I now realize, as do several people I went to school with) is that a law degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on if you don't have one of the following- (1) Great connections or (2) Abnormally high grades that would propel you into lucrative internship positions while in school or (3) A lot of money [ either your own, or your parents] to pay off your loans or (4) You went to school and incurred very little debt as a result. I know a ton of people who graduated with solid gpa's, passed one or two bar exams and are now ( more than a year after graduating) interning for free, doing nothing, doing anything to make money whether law related or not, or are back in school for another degree until the economy picks up again. And while you request loan defferment after loan defferment and the interest continues to accumulate, more and more suckers are putting themselves in permanent debt to recieve an education that will more than likely land them a shitty entry level job doing something they hate.

What the admissions offices don't tell you is that there are way too many lawyers, way too many law students and very few good jobs availible once you graduate. Education is big business and 90% of schools do not provide any real help in assisting their graduates with permanent employment.

Skip8282

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »
As it seems like they're all doing it or going to be doing it, I'm not sure what the net effect will be.  Pretty sad state of affairs though.

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2010, 02:26:41 PM »
GW - I went through it.  Trust me, I know,

It was not easy.  I literally walked the streets pounding on doors for work and hustled my ass off to the point I am now.  Its rough out there. 


Skip8282

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2010, 02:46:22 PM »
GW - I went through it.  Trust me, I know,

It was not easy.  I literally walked the streets pounding on doors for work and hustled my ass off to the point I am now.  Its rough out there. 




GW has said several times that he is currently underemployed.  But hell, look at how many people they graduate every year.  The field must be unbelievably packed, so even artificially raising grades may not help much - especially if everybody else follows suit.

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 02:52:42 PM »

GW has said several times that he is currently underemployed.  But hell, look at how many people they graduate every year.  The field must be unbelievably packed, so even artificially raising grades may not help much - especially if everybody else follows suit.

The problem is that most kids come out of law school not prepared to be lawyers and function in a law office other than research, document nonsense, and crap that most clients don't want to pay for right now. 

The other issue is that most small mid firms cant afford to pay a new kid out of law school 80k - 100k a year in a situation where the paralegal and legal sec knows more than the lawyer. 

The other problem is that most kids are really not prepared to be hustlers and sharks.  Yes, hustlers and sharks.  Its a dog eat dog world and this profession you either get sharp teeth fast or get eaten. 

 IMHO - new lawyers need to learn how to handle a basic criminal defense case, real estate closing, and basic estate planning like wills, etc. 

BayGBM

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 02:54:17 PM »
Unfortunetly, padding gpa's like that only happens at the "really good" law schools and the ones that are so shitty, nobody would care or notice. If you attended a good law school that isn't Harvard or Yale, but that also isn't a third tier shitshow, chances are you didn't recieve the artificial benefit of the inflated curve.

One thing people do not realize, ( and that I now realize, as do several people I went to school with) is that a law degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on if you don't have one of the following- (1) Great connections or (2) Abnormally high grades that would propel you into lucrative internship positions while in school or (3) A lot of money [ either your own, or your parents] to pay off your loans or (4) You went to school and incurred very little debt as a result. I know a ton of people who graduated with solid gpa's, passed one or two bar exams and are now ( more than a year after graduating) interning for free, doing nothing, doing anything to make money whether law related or not, or are back in school for another degree until the economy picks up again. And while you request loan defferment after loan defferment and the interest continues to accumulate, more and more suckers are putting themselves in permanent debt to recieve an education that will more than likely land them a shitty entry level job doing something they hate.

What the admissions offices don't tell you is that there are way too many lawyers, way too many law students and very few good jobs availible once you graduate. Education is big business and 90% of schools do not provide any real help in assisting their graduates with permanent employment.

This is true.  There are more students in law schools today than there are practicing attorneys in the profession.  Law, especially the lucrative jobs, is saturated.  And more law schools are opening every day.  UC Irvine opened a law school not too long ago… and didn’t Drexel Univ. open a law school as well?

Every aspiring law school student thinks he is going to graduate and walk into an Associates position making $175k.  Um no.  But if students want to believe that is it the job of the Admissions Dean to dissuade them? ???

If you went to a first tier law school (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc.) and graduated near the top of your class you will be fine… if not, well, good luck to you.  8)

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 02:57:28 PM »
Look, I am a driven person and have no problem hustling and cracking heads in the streets, the court, etc.  I have a rough personality and it works for debt collection and what I do.  I have a good clientele thats increasing daily mostly through referalls, but it take a long time to get a rep.  a LONG TIME! 

However, if I were some impish little dork, ffuugggeeettaabboouuuttt iittt.

Fury

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 02:58:43 PM »
What about combining a JD with an MBA a la Romney?

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 03:00:30 PM »
What about combining a JD with an MBA a la Romney?

Great education!  But get someone else to pay for it and go to wall street. 

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 03:01:28 PM »
Great education!  But get someone else to pay for it and go to wall street. 

Yeah, I was thinking of it more in terms of going to consulting or wall st. From what I've read, a lot of consulting firms like Bain and Co. and McKinsey love JD/MBAs.

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 03:03:19 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking of it more in terms of going to consulting or wall st. From what I've read, a lot of consulting firms like Bain and Co. and McKinsey love JD/MBAs.

Look, the education of a JD/MBA is great, whether you want to be a lawyer or not.  the thing with a JD, is you actually have a license to practice law and can do shit no one else can. 

But the cost is very high for a joint degree.  Your talking about 120k! 

Fury

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 03:04:20 PM »
Look, the education of a JD/MBA is great, whether you want to be a lawyer or not.  the thing with a JD, is you actually have a license to practice law and can do shit no one else can. 

But the cost is very high for a joint degree.  Your talking about 120k! 

Yeah, I know. I'm just a bystander here. Can't say I know a lot about that stuff.

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 03:06:08 PM »
Yeah, I know. I'm just a bystander here. Can't say I know a lot about that stuff.

If I had to do everything again, I would have become a member of NYFD right out of college and gone to law school at night.  They actually work it our for people do to that. 

Then I would have built up my practice on the side so that after 20 on the FD, I could retire from that and still have the law practice. 

 

Fury

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 03:07:57 PM »
If I had to do everything again, I would have become a member of NYFD right out of college and gone to law school at night.  They actually work it our for people do to that. 

Then I would have built up my practice on the side so that after 20 on the FD, I could retire from that and still have the law practice. 

 

That's what Tom Condon did while he was in the NFL. Got his law degree over a few years and started representing a few players and slowly built himself up into the most powerful sports agent in the NFL.

BayGBM

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 03:09:12 PM »
What about combining a JD with an MBA a la Romney?

In general, I frown on these combined degrees: JD/MA, JD/MBA, JD/PhD, JD/MD, JD/MEM, JD/MPP, etc. There are people for whom they prove useful, but they are only about 15% of the law student population.  These joint degrees are really for very motivated students who have a genuine intellectual interest in the other field—simply doing it to try to position yourself for a better job or make yourself more marketable is not the way to go about it.  If your employer is paying for it, then by all means do it, but unless you are in this 15% group I would not recommend it.  For most people, the "value added" simply is not there.

Skip8282

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 03:30:16 PM »
Every aspiring law school student thinks he is going to graduate and walk into an Associates position making $175k.  Um no.  But if students want to believe that is it the job of the Admissions Dean to dissuade them? ???





Uh, YES.  I would think it's generally the job of an educator to EDUCATE people.

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 03:33:03 PM »


Uh, YES.  I would think it's generally the job of an educator to EDUCATE people.

Most of these "educators" are clueless themselves. 

Skip8282

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2010, 03:45:00 PM »
Most of these "educators" are clueless themselves. 


At the high school level, I'm in total agreement.  At college level, I would disagree.  Greed may be blinding them, but I would think they would have a moral or ethical or professional responsibility.  I realize they can't convince someone who just won't listen, but I think they should certainly make a strong effort to disabuse them of any ridiculous dreams they may be harboring.

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2010, 03:48:30 PM »

At the high school level, I'm in total agreement.  At college level, I would disagree.  Greed may be blinding them, but I would think they would have a moral or ethical or professional responsibility.  I realize they can't convince someone who just won't listen, but I think they should certainly make a strong effort to disabuse them of any ridiculous dreams they may be harboring.

The only way law school can justify the enormous cost is to make all the students believe they will get the 1% of positions open in the white shoe firms where you are like a slave for a few years and hopefull get partnership in 8 years after a divorce, alcohol problem, and no life. 

I don't regret law school and think its a great education, but they definately sell you a load a shit not connected to reality. 

Skip8282

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 03:50:17 PM »
The only way law school can justify the enormous cost is to make all the students believe they will get the 1% of positions open in the white shoe firms where you are like a slave for a few years and hopefull get partnership in 8 years after a divorce, alcohol problem, and no life. 

I don't regret law school and think its a great education, but they definately sell you a load a shit not connected to reality. 



 ;D

Soul Crusher

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Re: In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Just Like That
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2010, 03:52:04 PM »


 ;D

I tell it like it is whether people want to hear it or not. 

The deluded leftists on this board don't like it because i am like that cold freezing bucket of ice water that wakes one from their drunken stupor.