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Author Topic: Legalized Marijuana and the Crime Question  (Read 14500 times)
Dos Equis
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« on: June 25, 2010, 02:37:08 PM »

Very interested to see how the vote turns out. 

Legalized Marijuana and the Crime Question
June 25, 2010 - 11:33 AM | by: Dan Springer

It's an argument you hear frequently from marijuana advocates: 'Legalize the drug, take the profit away, squeeze out the drug dealers and lower crime.' To be sure, the drug cartels would be impacted as would the entire drug underworld.

But while some see major improvements, others predict higher usage rates and even more problems associated with the drug.  One thing we know is that the drug trade in Mexico has gotten much more violent. Officials say 15,000 murders have been tied to the Mexican drug wars since 2006.

Norm Stamper, the former Seattle police chief who supports legalization says, "50-70 percent of Mexican drug cartel money represent marijuana sales. That (legalization) would deal a huge blow to them."  But most of law enforcement has serious reservations.

Drug Czars past and present oppose the California ballot initiative that would legalize small amounts of marijuana. John Walters, who served in that capacity under President Bush, says "The danger here is, when we don't take this seriously we encourage consumption and consumption drives up the cost and provides more money for these criminal groups to expand their capacity to do harm."

Walters calls medical marijuana a fraud which has led to more pot smoking. California was the first to test those waters in 1996 and since then 13 states have followed suit.

And violence still surrounds the drug even where it is considered "medicine." Just last night there were two murders at a medical marijuana dispensary in Los Angeles.

Critics also point to the Netherlands which legalized marijuana long ago. As  the country got known as a place to use drugs, there was an explosion of so-called coffee shops which are really just places to purchase and smoke marijuana.

They have become such a nuisance and attracted so much crime that officials have shut down thousands over the last few years.

Another debate surrounding legalization is over the clash that would exist between state and federal drug laws. Only an act of Congress could make marijuana legal under federal law.

The D.E.A., F.B.I. and other federal agencies have continued to enforce national drug laws even in states with medical marijuana. Although, while the Bush Administration took a hard line approach to the issue, President Obama has sent slightly different signals. Last year his attorney general Eric Holder instructed agents to stop pot dispensary raids if the outlets were operating within state law.

But Obama opposes outright legalization. His drug czar Gil Kerlikowski says, "We will have more criminal justice costs, more social costs, and the taxes, whatever taxes may be collected, and that's a very vague number, wouldn't begin to pay for all those costs."

Legalization would lead to a host of other sticky issues. Among them, drugs in the workplace. Courts have upheld the right of employers to require a drug-free work environment in states that allow medical marijuana. Would that change at all if pot were legal.

And what about custody cases? Judges, when deciding which home is more suitable for raising children can factor in drug use even when that drug use is allowed under state law.

So as Californians get ready to vote on the issue in November, people around the country are watching.


http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/25/legalized-marijuana-and-the-crime-question/?test=latestnews
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 04:23:58 PM »

IMO, the nation as a whole suffers if rampant drug use is present.

I can't support a 2012 candidate who endorses pot use or lax enforcement of drug laws, can you?
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 08:30:22 PM »

IMO, the nation as a whole suffers if rampant drug use is present.

I can't support a 2012 candidate who endorses pot use or lax enforcement of drug laws, can you?

I can regarding pot.  Illegal pot is stupid. 

The question of it being a problem in the work place?

There are plenty of legal drugs already being used in the work place.  The consequences would be the same.

Also, you won't get rid of the drug cartels by making pot legal.  That's another stupid belief. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 09:02:23 PM »

legalized it. People are going to do it any way...Might as get rid of the Mexican-cartel connection... collect a hefty ass tax

Everyone wins...

Allow zero advertisement on the product like tobacco.  No brands like Newport Cheddar dank gold Etc, purple maze haze, etc... Grin
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 09:19:58 PM »


The war on drugs is A major loss, as Ron Paul state over and over...Let pull out of that war..

Take a look at the amount money that could be servicing our national debt..


http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 09:23:03 PM »

IMO, the nation as a whole suffers if rampant drug use is present.

I can't support a 2012 candidate who endorses pot use or lax enforcement of drug laws, can you?
They need to legalize it, the fact that there is a epidemic of Oxy, Vico, etc abuase is crazy. The drug companies need to come up with a non-opiate based pain killer.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 04:27:47 AM »

I'm for decriminalizing it but don't know what the effect would be. Just seems like a waste of resources but I wonder how many potheads would want a high doctor, cop, nurse, teller, taxi driver, or whatever taking care of them.

The whole system probably only works because responsible people are sticking to alcohol and prescription drugs, LOL!
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2010, 05:58:50 AM »

Legalize Cocaine= The drug wars end tommorow, the cartels go belly up, left wing narco terrorists lose most of their funding, inner cities become safe again, illegal immigration is reduced, crime drops 1000% and half of the law enforcement community gets reassigned or loses their job. Politicians lose a huge platform to run on and the war on drugs is admitted to be a failure. 

Legalize Heroin= The drug wars end tommorow, the Afghan warlords go bankrupt, terrorists lose a ton of funding, inner cities become safe again, crime drops 1000% and half of the law enforcement community gets reassigned or loses their job.  Politicians lose a huge platform to run on and the war on drugs is admitted to be a failure. 

Legalize Marajuana= A few stoners, deadbeats, hippies, college students, people that can't afford heroin or cocaine and some rastafarians, rappers and leftist politicians will declare a victory for " cancer patients and people with glacoma". The Liqour industry takes a huge hit. Crime drops 1000% and Right Wing politicians will declare that this is the nail in the coffin for America.

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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2010, 06:59:20 AM »

we will never get rid of the cartels like oz said thats just stupid, its the same as idiots saying that legalizing drugs will get rid of gangs...they will just find something else to do.

if we legalize marijuana the cartels will just start pushing cocaine, if we legalize cocaine they will push something else etc.

I think pot does have valuable medical uses to a specific SMALL % of ppl...

my main thing with this has always been that there is no way to immediately identify if someone is high or not with alcohol we have a BAC test but with pot there is no such test. So when someone is driving under the influence of pot how do we know it? draw blood? im sure all the pro pot proponents would be willing to have that done everytime a cop pulls them over b/c they are suspected to be driving under the influence...

until then, it should remain banned...
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2010, 07:19:46 AM »

At least one of the top potential 2012 GOp challengers doesnt think the police should be enforcing drug possession laws.  This ex-governor was also a steady marijuana user in the past as well. 
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2010, 07:23:35 AM »

I think it should be decriminalized for a variety of reasons..

1. We are spending a lot of money and stopping a small percentage of the shipments
2. we are using a lot of Law Enforcement resources and getting very little actual results. This includes all drugs. For example, we have street narcotics units that work directly with addressing street level drug dealings. Typically they spend 20 hrs preparing for a buy bust. They spend 10 hrs doing the buy bust. They arrest 30 people in a 5 hr operation for felony drug offense. The suspect spends a day in jail and is back out on the street getting busted the next week. Repeat process 52 times.
3. As long as alcohol and tobacco are legal we are inconsistent hypocrites.


The fact is we have been at war with drugs for years. We haven't put a dent in it and we won't anytime soon. I advocate spending a portion of the money we are spending on drug suppresion on drug rehabilitation. I also think we have laws in place to address illegal behaviors which will address the fear of what happens if it became legal.. ie.  you drink too much wine and drive, you get arrested. You drink too much beer and assault someone, you get arrested, you smoke to much pot and laugh too loud in a theater, you get removed, you get caught at work high on cocaine, you get fired. Seems pretty simple.

  
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2010, 07:24:28 AM »

IMO, the nation as a whole suffers if rampant drug use is present.

I can't support a 2012 candidate who endorses pot use or lax enforcement of drug laws, can you?
how did I know there was an alterear motive to this question?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 07:25:33 AM »

Yeah it looks like a set up   lol
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 07:26:37 AM »

The fact is we have been at war with drugs for years. We haven't put a dent in it and we won't anytime soon. I advocate spending a portion of the money we are spending on drug suppresion on drug rehabilitation. I also think we have laws in place to address illegal behaviors which will address the fear of what happens if it became legal.. ie.  you drink too much wine and drive, you get arrested. You drink too much beer and assault someone, you get arrested, you smoke to much pot and laugh too loud in a theater, you get removed, you get caught at work high on cocaine, you get fired. Seems pretty simple.
How do you know someone is high?
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 07:27:30 AM »

maybe the war on drugs IS a success in that the $$$$ is being spent.

tax dollars keeping millions of americans at work.
these americans pay their taxes.
the drug vermin (the hardcore stuff users) isolated to pockets in each town.
the suburban pot smokers usually get away with it.

They know they'll never 'win' it, but they'll always keep it managed, keep ppl working and keep the tax revenue rolling in.

Or, look at it this way, if they ended the war on drugs tomorrow, they'd be releasing millions of prisoners along with millions of DEA agents and other govt workers.  Hello, more unemployment and welfare.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 07:37:18 AM »

If drugs became legal what would the gangs do? Other illegal things to make money. But then, 90% of law enforcement resources being wasted on  an unwinnable war on drugs could be used to stop REAL crime. The secondary effects of the drug war would largely be mitigated- IE robberies, thefts, murders etc. because there would be nothing to fight over and no need to harm someone to get a fix.

The legalization of drugs would absolutely cripple the cartel, end drug smuggling operations and stop the overcrowing of the US prison system ( which is largely made up of drug offenders).

IMO legalizing pot is a total waste of time and nothing more than a political hot button issue. It would hurt the Cartels somewhat, but nothing crazy. Theres way more money in coke, meth, heroin, perscription drugs, steroids, ectasy etc. Legalizing pot would be a victory for practically nobody.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2010, 07:41:29 AM »

If drugs became legal what would the gangs do? Other illegal things to make money. But then, 90% of law enforcement resources being wasted on  an unwinnable war on drugs could be used to stop REAL crime. The secondary effects of the drug war would largely be mitigated- IE robberies, thefts, murders etc. because there would be nothing to fight over and no need to harm someone to get a fix.

The legalization of drugs would absolutely cripple the cartel, end drug smuggling operations and stop the overcrowing of the US prison system ( which is largely made up of drug offenders).

IMO legalizing pot is a total waste of time and nothing more than a political hot button issue. It would hurt the Cartels somewhat, but nothing crazy. Theres way more money in coke, meth, heroin, perscription drugs, steroids, ectasy etc. Legalizing pot would be a victory for practically nobody.

Except the pots heads.

I agree with most of what you say though.  I remember hearing or reading somewhere that 50% of law enforcement revenue is used to fight drugs.

Imagine if that was all used to fight REAL crime?
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2010, 07:52:45 AM »

How do you know someone is high?

1. Bag of cheetos, or orange tinted fingers, smells a lot like marijuana...laughs at everything, refuses to fight
2. erradict behavior, disoriented, dilated pupils

You know someone is high pretty much like you know someone is drunk, just with out the smell of alcohol
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2010, 08:00:06 AM »

If drugs became legal what would the gangs do? Other illegal things to make money. But then, 90% of law enforcement resources being wasted on  an unwinnable war on drugs could be used to stop REAL crime. The secondary effects of the drug war would largely be mitigated- IE robberies, thefts, murders etc. because there would be nothing to fight over and no need to harm someone to get a fix.

The legalization of drugs would absolutely cripple the cartel, end drug smuggling operations and stop the overcrowing of the US prison system ( which is largely made up of drug offenders).

IMO legalizing pot is a total waste of time and nothing more than a political hot button issue. It would hurt the Cartels somewhat, but nothing crazy. Theres way more money in coke, meth, heroin, perscription drugs, steroids, ectasy etc. Legalizing pot would be a victory for practically nobody.
while I agree that it would allow more LE to focus on other crimes, it wouldnt eliminate gangs or the cartels...

gang members would just find something else illegal to do, rob, steal, create and sell other new drugs...these ppl are not going to all of a sudden become productive members of society just b/c we legalize drugs...

same thing with the cartels they will just change their business model...

the problem is that meth, coke, heroin are drugs that are highly addictive and cause grave damage to the body...ppl arent going to work on such drugs so how are they going to get the money in order to buy these drugs?

yes alcohol and tobacco are addictive and destructive but not anywhere on the same level as meth, coke and heroin...

again you need immediate tests to determine if someone is under the influence of these drugs...ppl driving under perception altering narcotics should not be driving...
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2010, 08:06:08 AM »

1. Bag of cheetos, or orange tinted fingers, smells a lot like marijuana...laughs at everything, refuses to fight
2. erradict behavior, disoriented, dilated pupils

You know someone is high pretty much like you know someone is drunk, just with out the smell of alcohol
LOL so anytime a cop sees a bag of cheetos and someone gives a nervous laugh(happens all the time) they assume youre driving high and takes you in?

again there needs to be an immediate way of determining if someone is high or not like with alcohol...if not then everyone better be ok with being taken in if you have a bag of junk food in your car...
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2010, 08:17:07 AM »

LOL so anytime a cop sees a bag of cheetos and someone gives a nervous laugh(happens all the time) they assume youre driving high and takes you in?

again there needs to be an immediate way of determining if someone is high or not like with alcohol...if not then everyone better be ok with being taken in if you have a bag of junk food in your car...

Typically, DWI or drunk drivers are initially identified by their driving behavior, driving 10mph in a 60mph zone, weaving, driving with headlights off, crashing into other cars or trees. I think it would work pretty much the same. Currently we have DRO officers or Drug Recognition officers who go through extensive training to identify drug influence. When an officer pulls over a car for erratic driving and there is no sign of alcohol abuse, then a DRO is called to the scene to evaluate the driver. They can be pretty accurate. If probable cause exists to believe they are under the influence, then blood is drawn.

So the immediate way of determining would be

1. Initial reason for contact.. driving the wrong way in a one way..
2. Field Sobriety Testing and RDO evaluation

It would be no different than a drunk person refusing to give a breath sample..
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2010, 08:25:06 AM »

Well yeah, they would have to do other illegal things. But then law enforcement would be freed up to stop them from doing those illegal things.

My own personal CT is this-- The cartels need the drugs to be illegal and so do the politicians. Illegality means huge profits for the drug dealers, big budgets for law enforcement and a healthy reelection platform issue for the politicians. The US government wants drugs to remain illegal so it can continue to piss away tax dollars on overtime for cops, building more jails, using more invasive ways to monitor the public and to present a politically incorrect enemy that the public will rally against regardless of the price (think about the children!). The right wing wants to use military tactics to fight an enemy that will never die as long as human beings inhabit the planet, while the left wants to put needle exchange programs and rehab centers on every block. Pharmaceutical companies want "street drugs" kept as illegal as possible because they want to soak up the market of recovering addicts who want anti depressants, anti psychotics, heroin substitutes, serotonin replacers, and every other conceivable "solve all of your problems in a pill" fix. Then, for the rest of us who can't cope with reality and can afford psychiatry ( want to get high but don't want to break the law) they want to soak up that market as well. Another player is the religious community. Drugs remain illegal because of the moral decay that will surely ensue once people can put whatever they want into their bodies. How can churches, mosques and synagogues tell their praticioners with a straight face that taking drugs is wrong, when it's not even illegal? How can they brainwash their followers into crushing up some god powder and sniffing themselves into heaven? The most logical way would be to ensure that the most readily available euphoria's are kept away from the flock.

I could keep going, but you get the idea.

The DEA, Customs, a large quantity of the FBI, elements of the Navy, Coast Guard, CIA, ATF, DHS, Border Agents, local police, corrections on the local and federal level = All base their existence on the illegality of drugs.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2010, 08:55:00 AM »

Typically, DWI or drunk drivers are initially identified by their driving behavior, driving 10mph in a 60mph zone, weaving, driving with headlights off, crashing into other cars or trees. I think it would work pretty much the same. Currently we have DRO officers or Drug Recognition officers who go through extensive training to identify drug influence. When an officer pulls over a car for erratic driving and there is no sign of alcohol abuse, then a DRO is called to the scene to evaluate the driver. They can be pretty accurate. If probable cause exists to believe they are under the influence, then blood is drawn.

So the immediate way of determining would be

1. Initial reason for contact.. driving the wrong way in a one way..
2. Field Sobriety Testing and RDO evaluation

It would be no different than a drunk person refusing to give a breath sample..
yes you see but with drinking and driving you have the ability to take a breathelyzer and prove youre not drunk...with pot there is no such test, so unless youre willing to give blood everytime you get pulled over and are suspected of driving under the influence which will happen A LOT more if its legal then you shouldnt be for legalizing pot...

giving blood seems a tad excessive...
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2010, 08:57:33 AM »

"The DEA, Customs, a large quantity of the FBI, elements of the Navy, Coast Guard, CIA, ATF, DHS, Border Agents, local police, corrections on the local and federal level = All base their existence on the illegality of drugs"

I will differ with you on local police basing their existence on the illegality of drugs. While it is a part of it, assaults, sexual assaults, burglary, fraud, robbery, traffic enforcement, domestic disturbances, criminal mischief, theft give us job security. Not all is tied to drugs.  
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 09:01:53 AM »

yes you see but with drinking and driving you have the ability to take a breathelyzer and prove youre not drunk...with pot there is no such test, so unless youre willing to give blood everytime you get pulled over and are suspected of driving under the influence which will happen A LOT more if its legal then you shouldnt be for legalizing pot...

giving blood seems a tad excessive...

I am not in the catagory of people who believe drug use with significantly increase if it is legal. We already deal with people who drive under the influence of drugs, so it wouldnt be anything new. And as far as pot.. Only the people smoking it at the time, can't smell the overpowering odor of the weed they just toked.. its in their clothes, on their hands, you can sometimes smell it coming from the car several feet away.. not really a mystery thing there..
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