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Author Topic: Stinking Filthy "LIB"  (Read 8053 times)
Straw Man
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« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2010, 11:06:45 PM »

LOL brain child you could point to both parties that do that...its what the conservatives believe and what liberals believe that is the point...we are talking conservative or liberal principles not actions of so called libs or cons...

you really havent given any reason why washington would be considered a liberal today...both liberals and conservatives were isolationinst prior to WW2 for the most part...the only person who I know that believes along those lines today is ron paul A CONSERVATIVE...an actual conservative



I've already given you a couple of reasons

I've been reading Washingtons farewell letter (aka farewell address) and it's pretty damn interesting

I have to say he sounds more like a stinking filthly lib more than a corporatist, jesus freak, neo-con

I think I've said before that both parties suck and it's nice to see that Washington had a lot to say about political parties and even in the larger context of the idea of countries and the nature of conflict

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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2010, 04:26:29 AM »

I've already given you a couple of reasons

I've been reading Washingtons farewell letter (aka farewell address) and it's pretty damn interesting

I have to say he sounds more like a stinking filthly lib more than a corporatist, jesus freak, neo-con

I think I've said before that both parties suck and it's nice to see that Washington had a lot to say about political parties and even in the larger context of the idea of countries and the nature of conflict



Sounds more like our President Straw.  Exapanding wars and the Patriot Act, corporate giveaways up the yin yang in ObamaCare 7 Cap & Trade and the bailouts, spent 20 years in a race baiting church, etc. 
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Straw Man
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« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2010, 07:19:56 AM »

Sounds more like our President Straw.  Exapanding wars and the Patriot Act, corporate giveaways up the yin yang in ObamaCare 7 Cap & Trade and the bailouts, spent 20 years in a race baiting church, etc. 

sounds like Bush as well and to a certain extent also Reagan,

The idea that Repubs are fiscally conservative and want smaller governent and want to stay out of our private lives is a complete joke.

they sell that story to the voting schmuck (and it helps to get them scared in order to buy it)  while doing the exact opposite
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« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2010, 08:12:26 AM »

This thread is one gigantic embarrassment and you have shown yourself to be a moron by starting it.
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OzmO
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« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2010, 09:44:27 AM »

I dont' see it that way.

Like I stated previously, "LIB" is a pejorative term in our country and it's definition is soley created by the right

If Liberal in the late 1700's = Conservative today then how do you explain current day conservatives who have exploded the size of goverment, run up the national debt, tried to take away civil liberties (aka Patriot Act), tried to insert their own values into everyone's private life, resisted and fought equality under the law (opposed civil rights, gay rights,etc..), pursued wars of choice, etc.....

Today's modern Conservative is nothing like Washington's Liberal



I see some of what you are saying, however in saying what you have said it takes away from the point you were trying to make in the first place, that Washington was liberal as we see liberals today.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2010, 10:04:56 AM »

This thread is one gigantic embarrassment and you have shown yourself to be a moron by starting it.

like I give a shit what you think

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Straw Man
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2010, 10:23:19 AM »

I see some of what you are saying, however in saying what you have said it takes away from the point you were trying to make in the first place, that Washington was liberal as we see liberals today.

most of the criticism of me on this thread is the somehow when Washington used the word liberal he was really referring to a consertvative ideal.

I don't agree with that premise.  

The more I read of Washingtons writings the more he seems like an enlightined, intellectual, liberal than what we today call conservative.

He was completely against political parties because he felt they bred divisiveness (see any of that on this board?)

The point of my title was that, today, "liberal" is always a negative.  That's how it's been framed for us by the right and that's why my title was filtly stinking lib.

The quote by Washingtong talks about sociate becoming more liberal over time and talks about more people be "equally entitled" to the protection of government.    That idea sounds more like a liberal democratic idea in today's meaning of the word than a republican/conservative idea (IMO).

in the modern time - think about civil rights, workers rights (to s afe workplace, to organize, etc..) womans rights, gay rights, human rights in generalenvironmentalism (the idea that "the commons" belong to the people), etc...   Repubs/Conservatives are generally not the champions of these ideas (we can give some credit to Nixon for the enviroment)
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« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2010, 11:12:17 AM »

SOUNDS LIKE A REAL LIB STRAW!

________________________ ___________________


Why are George Washington quotes so remarkable? Once in a rare while a great man is born - a man who changes the world for the better and leaves his mark for posterity. George Washington was one of these men and his words are words to live by. As we remember his birthday this month, let these leadership quotes remind us of what's really important.

1. "Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."

2. "Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence."

3. "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."

4. "Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

5. "Friendship is a plant of slow growth and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation."

6. "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

7. "Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company."

8. "Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience."

9. "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

10. "The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it."

11. "Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals."

12. "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/politics-articles/12-george-washington-quotes-to-remember-his-birthday-336509.html#ixzz0uuLDPhEL
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2010, 11:24:17 AM »

[17] "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and the keystone under independence. The rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."

- George Washington
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Straw Man
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« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2010, 11:31:43 AM »

SOUNDS LIKE A REAL LIB STRAW!

________________________ ___________________


Why are George Washington quotes so remarkable? Once in a rare while a great man is born - a man who changes the world for the better and leaves his mark for posterity. George Washington was one of these men and his words are words to live by. As we remember his birthday this month, let these leadership quotes remind us of what's really important.

1. "Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness."

2. "Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence."

3. "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth."

4. "Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."

5. "Friendship is a plant of slow growth and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation."

6. "If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

7. "Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company."

8. "Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience."

9. "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

10. "The foolish and wicked practice of profane cursing and swearing is a vice so mean and low that every person of sense and character detests and despises it."

11. "Laws made by common consent must not be trampled on by individuals."

12. "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/politics-articles/12-george-washington-quotes-to-remember-his-birthday-336509.html#ixzz0uuLDPhEL
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution


yeah like there are no Libs who also hold those opinions just like there are no conservative who are against torture or getting involved in foreign wars

I'm finding this document to be quite interesting:  http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Farewell_Address#27
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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2010, 11:35:35 AM »

Straw - the founders were more libertarian than anything.  The current 2 party system is a complete farce.  Both sides engage in hypocrisy that never seems to know any bounds. 

Like I said in another thread - politics is about who you prefer wasting your money and telling you what to do.   
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OzmO
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« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2010, 01:39:11 PM »

most of the criticism of me on this thread is the somehow when Washington used the word liberal he was really referring to a consertvative ideal.

I don't agree with that premise.  

The more I read of Washingtons writings the more he seems like an enlightined, intellectual, liberal than what we today call conservative.

He was completely against political parties because he felt they bred divisiveness (see any of that on this board?)

The point of my title was that, today, "liberal" is always a negative.  That's how it's been framed for us by the right and that's why my title was filtly stinking lib.

The quote by Washingtong talks about sociate becoming more liberal over time and talks about more people be "equally entitled" to the protection of government.    That idea sounds more like a liberal democratic idea in today's meaning of the word than a republican/conservative idea (IMO).

in the modern time - think about civil rights, workers rights (to s afe workplace, to organize, etc..) womans rights, gay rights, human rights in generalenvironmentalism (the idea that "the commons" belong to the people), etc...   Repubs/Conservatives are generally not the champions of these ideas (we can give some credit to Nixon for the enviroment)

Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?  Would the democratic party argue that?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2010, 08:12:31 PM »

Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?  Would the democratic party argue that?

I don't know what the democratic party would argue but Washington doesn't sound much like a modern day conservative to me (from what I've read) but then todays Republicans can hardly be called conservatives either given that responsiblity for exploding the size of governement and the national debt, destroying civil liberties, wars of choice, intrusion into person life, trying to inject religion into secular goverment, denying people equal rights, etc...
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OzmO
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« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2010, 08:41:48 PM »

I don't know what the democratic party would argue but Washington doesn't sound much like a modern day conservative to me (from what I've read) but then todays Republicans can hardly be called conservatives either given that responsiblity for exploding the size of governement and the national debt, destroying civil liberties, wars of choice, intrusion into person life, trying to inject religion into secular goverment, denying people equal rights, etc...

But I didn't ask about Washington being a conservative....
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Straw Man
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« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2010, 09:06:59 PM »

But I didn't ask about Washington being a conservative....

so ?

I answered your question

hasn't the arguement people have been trying to make on this thread is that a Lib in Washingtons time was what we would call a conservative so it makes sense to compare Washington to todays "conservative"
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OzmO
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« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2010, 10:21:24 PM »

so ?

I answered your question

hasn't the arguement people have been trying to make on this thread is that a Lib in Washingtons time was what we would call a conservative so it makes sense to compare Washington to todays "conservative"

No, not really, you haven't answered my question (s).

I'm not talking about other people's argument, I'm talking about our discussion.

Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?  Would the democratic party argue that?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2010, 10:51:56 PM »

No, not really, you haven't answered my question (s).

I'm not talking about other people's argument, I'm talking about our discussion.

Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?  Would the democratic party argue that?

I did answer your question

I don't know what the democratic party would argue but Washington doesn't sound much like a modern day conservative to me (from what I've read) but then todays Republicans can hardly be called conservatives either given that responsiblity for exploding the size of governement and the national debt, destroying civil liberties, wars of choice, intrusion into person life, trying to inject religion into secular goverment, denying people equal rights, etc...
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« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2010, 04:17:51 AM »

Straw give it up already. This is like watching a baby seal get waterboarded with motor oil. Your "ironic" thread backfired in typical cringe inducing fashion. You can't possibly explain or rationalize why you posted a GW quote that basically hails today's Tea Party movement as the kind liberalism he hopes will one day be prevalent in the United States.

Just accept the fact that this thread is a massive FAIL and move on.

Try again next time.
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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2010, 04:35:29 AM »

I don't know what the democratic party would argue but Washington doesn't sound much like a modern day conservative to me (from what I've read) but then todays Republicans can hardly be called conservatives either given that responsiblity for exploding the size of governement and the national debt, destroying civil liberties, wars of choice, intrusion into person life, trying to inject religion into secular goverment, denying people equal rights, etc...

That's funny Straw: 

1.  Democrats have out spent anything within imagination from 2006 to the preset date and are adding debt like its not even funny. 

2.  Growing govt?  Both parties are guilty, however, the Dems most recent expansions dwarf anything the GOP has done. 

3.  Destroying civil liberties?  Hmmm, isint it Obama who expanded and continues to expand the Patriot Act with the approval of his own party? 

4.  Wars of choice?  Like Vietnam and Serbia Straw? 

5.  Intrusion into personal life?  ObamaCare, Cap & Trade, FINREG, are what again Staw? 

6.  Denying Equal rights?  Like what?  Gay Marriage?  I guess you forgot that it was Clinton who signed DOMA Act. 

7.  Inject religion into secular society?  Both parties do it. 


And lets see Straw - what about the quotes I posted above?           

 
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Straw Man
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« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2010, 07:42:54 AM »

Straw give it up already. This is like watching a baby seal get waterboarded with motor oil. Your "ironic" thread backfired in typical cringe inducing fashion. You can't possibly explain or rationalize why you posted a GW quote that basically hails today's Tea Party movement as the kind liberalism he hopes will one day be prevalent in the United States.

Just accept the fact that this thread is a massive FAIL and move on.

Try again next time.

I'm just responding to people asking me question

when I get bored I'll stop
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OzmO
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« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2010, 07:45:07 AM »

I did answer your question


Thanks, but you only answered the second question.


Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?

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Straw Man
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« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2010, 07:57:55 AM »

That's funny Straw: 

1.  Democrats have out spent anything within imagination from 2006 to the preset date and are adding debt like its not even funny. 

2.  Growing govt?  Both parties are guilty, however, the Dems most recent expansions dwarf anything the GOP has done. 

3.  Destroying civil liberties?  Hmmm, isint it Obama who expanded and continues to expand the Patriot Act with the approval of his own party? 

4.  Wars of choice?  Like Vietnam and Serbia Straw? 

5.  Intrusion into personal life?  ObamaCare, Cap & Trade, FINREG, are what again Staw? 

6.  Denying Equal rights?  Like what?  Gay Marriage?  I guess you forgot that it was Clinton who signed DOMA Act. 

7.  Inject religion into secular society?  Both parties do it. 


And lets see Straw - what about the quotes I posted above?           


your primary point seems to be that both parities are very similar and I've made the point many times myself

On the other hand, one party claims to be conservative yet their actions are completely the opposite of what conservative claim to believe

If you look at the quote and think when it was made you will no dobut realize that the country has become much more liberal, in the context of what Washintong was talking about.....more and more peole being "equally entitled to the protections of civil government"
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Straw Man
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« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2010, 08:46:08 AM »

Thanks, but you only answered the second question.
Would Washington be considered a liberal by today's standards?

I think the word liberal has generally the same meaning today (not the right wing framed version) as it did in Washingtons time.
We know he was totally against political parties so he obviously wouldn't be Dem or Repub (or Whig or Bull Moose, or any other party created after his time).  

We also know that he help create the most liberal government and country on the planet at that time.   He helped create a democracy run by the people, based on individual liberty and freedom from church and monarchies.

here is a definition of the word from the Oxford English Dictionary:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1263252?rskey=KZBrKH&result=1#m_en_us1263252

adjective
1 open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values:
they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people
 favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms:
liberal citizenship laws
 (in a political context) favoring maximum individual liberty in political and social reform:
a liberal democratic state
 (Liberal)of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party(Liberal)(in the UK) of or relating to the Liberal Democrat Party:
the Liberal leader
 Theologyregarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change2 [attributive] (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training3 (especially of an interpretation of a law) broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal or exact:
they could have given the 1968 Act a more liberal interpretation
 4 given , used , or occurring in generous amounts:
liberal amounts of wine had been consumed
 (of a person) giving generously:
Sam was too liberal with the wine

Origin:
Middle English: via Old French from Latin liberalis, from liber 'free (man)'. The original sense was 'suitable for a free man', hence 'suitable for a gentleman' (one not tied to a trade), surviving in liberal arts. Another early sense 'generous'  (liberal (sense 4 of the adjective) ) gave rise to an obsolete meaning 'free from restraint', leading to  liberal (sense 1 of the adjective) (late 18th century)
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OzmO
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« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2010, 08:49:59 AM »

I think the word liberal has generally the same meaning today (not the right wing framed version) as it did in Washingtons time.
We know he was totally against political parties so he obviously wouldn't be Dem or Repub (or Whig or Bull Moose, or any other party created after his time).  

We also know that he help create the most liberal government and country on the planet at that time.   He helped create a democracy run by the people, based on individual liberty and freedom from church and monarchies.

here is a definition of the word from the Oxford English Dictionary:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1263252?rskey=KZBrKH&result=1#m_en_us1263252

adjective
1 open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values:
they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people
 favorable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms:
liberal citizenship laws
 (in a political context) favoring maximum individual liberty in political and social reform:
a liberal democratic state
 (Liberal)of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party(Liberal)(in the UK) of or relating to the Liberal Democrat Party:
the Liberal leader
 Theologyregarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change2 [attributive] (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training3 (especially of an interpretation of a law) broadly construed or understood; not strictly literal or exact:
they could have given the 1968 Act a more liberal interpretation
 4 given , used , or occurring in generous amounts:
liberal amounts of wine had been consumed
 (of a person) giving generously:
Sam was too liberal with the wine

Origin:
Middle English: via Old French from Latin liberalis, from liber 'free (man)'. The original sense was 'suitable for a free man', hence 'suitable for a gentleman' (one not tied to a trade), surviving in liberal arts. Another early sense 'generous'  (liberal (sense 4 of the adjective) ) gave rise to an obsolete meaning 'free from restraint', leading to  liberal (sense 1 of the adjective) (late 18th century)

So is that a yes or no?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2010, 08:58:12 AM »

So is that a yes or no?

by the definition of the word in the late 18th century (which I think generally still applies today)

"open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values"

yes
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