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Author Topic: Stinking Filthy "LIB"  (Read 7573 times)
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« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2010, 09:00:11 AM »

by the definition of the word in the late 18th century (which I think generally still applies today_

"open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values"

yes

Yeah, lets discard the values that resulted in a stable society for the communist inspired bs of the far left.   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2010, 09:07:30 AM »

Yeah, lets discard the values that resulted in a stable society for the communist inspired bs of the far left.   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

Washington discarded the traditional values of the time (monarchies, religious states, etc..) and put the power of the government in the hands of the people (something shocking at the time)
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« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2010, 09:18:11 AM »

by the definition of the word in the late 18th century (which I think generally still applies today)

"open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values"

yes

That covers 95% of the worlds population......

Man, you are reaching Straw.   Smiley  I know you can make your case better than that.

By the modern political definition is Washington considered a liberal?, here's wiki's:

Modern American liberalism is a form of social liberalism developed from progressive ideals such as Theodore Roosevelt's New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier, and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. It combines social liberalism and social progressivism with support for a welfare state and a mixed economy. American liberal causes include voting rights for African Americans, abortion rights for women, and government entitlements such as education and health care.[1]

Keynesian economic theory plays an influential role in the economic philosophy of American liberals.[2] These policy stances adhere to the central premise that individual freedom can only exist when it is protected by a strong, democratically elected government that has an active role in society and the economy.[3][4]

John F. Kennedy, a self-described liberal, defined a liberal as follows:
   ...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then Im proud to say Im a 'Liberal'.[5]    

Most American liberals support a mixed economy because they fear the extremes of wealth and poverty under unrestrained capitalism; they point to the widespread prosperity enjoyed under a mixed economy in the years since World War II.[6][7] They believe that all citizens are entitled to the basic necessities of life and they champion the protection of the environment.[4][8] Modern American liberalism is typically associated with the Democratic Party.[9] .

As of June 2010, 40% of American voters identify themselves as conservatives, 36% as moderates and 22% as liberals.[10] There has been a high level of stability over the last two decades. In 1992 40% of voters called themselves conservative, 35% moderate and 18% liberal[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States


 

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« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2010, 09:37:06 AM »

That covers 95% of the worlds population......

Man, you are reaching Straw.   Smiley  I know you can make your case better than that.

By the modern political definition is Washington considered a liberal?, here's wiki's:

Modern American liberalism is a form of social liberalism developed from progressive ideals such as Theodore Roosevelt's New Nationalism, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom, Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal, John F. Kennedy's New Frontier, and Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. It combines social liberalism and social progressivism with support for a welfare state and a mixed economy. American liberal causes include voting rights for African Americans, abortion rights for women, and government entitlements such as education and health care.[1]

Keynesian economic theory plays an influential role in the economic philosophy of American liberals.[2] These policy stances adhere to the central premise that individual freedom can only exist when it is protected by a strong, democratically elected government that has an active role in society and the economy.[3][4]

John F. Kennedy, a self-described liberal, defined a liberal as follows:
   ...someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal', then Im proud to say Im a 'Liberal'.[5]    

Most American liberals support a mixed economy because they fear the extremes of wealth and poverty under unrestrained capitalism; they point to the widespread prosperity enjoyed under a mixed economy in the years since World War II.[6][7] They believe that all citizens are entitled to the basic necessities of life and they champion the protection of the environment.[4][8] Modern American liberalism is typically associated with the Democratic Party.[9] .

As of June 2010, 40% of American voters identify themselves as conservatives, 36% as moderates and 22% as liberals.[10] There has been a high level of stability over the last two decades. In 1992 40% of voters called themselves conservative, 35% moderate and 18% liberal[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States


reaching?

I gave you the definition of the word as it was used at teh time (late 18th centure) from the OED

Washington was, among other things an intellectual and surely would have known the common defintion of the word at the time.

Washington was not only a liberal but a radical in his time
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« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2010, 09:39:49 AM »

reaching?

I gave you the definition of the word as it was used at teh time (late 18th centure) from the OED

Washington was, among other things an intellectual and surely would have known the common defintion of the word at the time.

Washington was not only a liberal but a radical in his time

The difference between his liberalism and yours is that he tried to get govt off of peoples' backs whereas the modern liberal is nothing more than an agent of govt slavery and oppresssion via onerous regulation, taxation, litigation, etc. 
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« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2010, 10:17:51 AM »

The difference between his liberalism and yours is that he tried to get govt off of peoples' backs whereas the modern liberal is nothing more than an agent of govt slavery and oppresssion via onerous regulation, taxation, litigation, etc. 

the liberalism you speak of is your own creation - not mine
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« Reply #81 on: July 28, 2010, 10:25:25 AM »

the liberalism you speak of is your own creation - not mine

 Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes 

Yeah, whatever Straw, keep buying into your nonsense.  HealthCare mandates, sin taxes, fat taxes, nanny state, etc etc are all pushed by who again?
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« Reply #82 on: July 28, 2010, 10:52:31 AM »

reaching?

I gave you the definition of the word as it was used at teh time (late 18th centure) from the OED

Washington was, among other things an intellectual and surely would have known the common defintion of the word at the time.

Washington was not only a liberal but a radical in his time

You gave me the standard definition of the word, not the political definition.  The definition you gave applies to 95% of the earth population and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Way to stand firm on your point.  (sarcasm)
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« Reply #83 on: July 28, 2010, 12:01:22 PM »

You gave me the standard definition of the word, not the political definition.  The definition you gave applies to 95% of the earth population and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Way to stand firm on your point.  (sarcasm)

how do you know "version" Washington was referring to.

The definition was the one used in the late 18th century  (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) and is pretty consistent with the actions taken by Washington (i.e. the form of government he was establishing and how it contrasted with the other forms of government at the time)

Stella's definition of "classical liberalism) from  the first page of this thread (and for some reason she linked to a post on GetBig rather than Wiki) is a 19th century concept deveoloped in Western Europe and the America's.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Classical liberalism is a political ideology that developed in the nineteenth century in Western Europe, and the Americas
. It is committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.[1] Notable individuals who have contributed to classical liberalism include Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus, and David Ricardo. There was a revival of interest in classical liberalism in the twentieth century led by Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek and other economists.[2][3][4]

The phrase classical liberalism is also sometimes used to refer to all forms of liberalism before the twentieth century. Some conservatives and libertarians use the term classical liberalism to describe their belief in the primacy of economic freedom and minimal government. It is sometimes unclear which meaning is intended in a given source

 


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« Reply #84 on: July 28, 2010, 12:18:06 PM »

You gave me the standard definition of the word, not the political definition.  The definition you gave applies to 95% of the earth population and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Way to stand firm on your point.  (sarcasm)

you might have also noticed that Washington used the word "liberality"

that's not really a word you hear too much today.

Here's what the OED has on that one:
 
 
liberality (liberality)

Syllabification:
OnOffPronunciation:/ˌlibəˈralətē/noun
1 the quality of giving or spending freely2 the quality of being open to new ideas and free from prejudice:
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« Reply #85 on: July 28, 2010, 12:20:40 PM »

you might have also noticed that Washington used the word "liberality"

that's not really a word you hear too much today.

Here's what the OED has on that one:
 
 
liberality (liberality)

Syllabification:
OnOffPronunciation:/ˌlibəˈralətē/noun
1 the quality of giving or spending freely2 the quality of being open to new ideas and free from prejudice:

Then that definately does not apply to modern libs as they are the most intolerant group of any. 
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« Reply #86 on: July 28, 2010, 04:02:16 PM »

how do you know "version" Washington was referring to.

The definition was the one used in the late 18th century  (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) and is pretty consistent with the actions taken by Washington (i.e. the form of government he was establishing and how it contrasted with the other forms of government at the time)

Stella's definition of "classical liberalism) from  the first page of this thread (and for some reason she linked to a post on GetBig rather than Wiki) is a 19th century concept deveoloped in Western Europe and the America's.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Classical liberalism is a political ideology that developed in the nineteenth century in Western Europe, and the Americas
. It is committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.[1] Notable individuals who have contributed to classical liberalism include Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus, and David Ricardo. There was a revival of interest in classical liberalism in the twentieth century led by Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek and other economists.[2][3][4]

The phrase classical liberalism is also sometimes used to refer to all forms of liberalism before the twentieth century. Some conservatives and libertarians use the term classical liberalism to describe their belief in the primacy of economic freedom and minimal government. It is sometimes unclear which meaning is intended in a given source

 


sigh, you squirm like the best of them straw.   Smiley

Would Washington be considered a liberal (the political definition) by today's standards?

Its a real simple question that can have a simple answer and the answer is pertinent to your original premise. 

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« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2010, 07:41:09 PM »

sigh, you squirm like the best of them straw.   Smiley

Would Washington be considered a liberal (the political definition) by today's standards?

Its a real simple question that can have a simple answer and the answer is pertinent to your original premise. 
LOL just quit now oz he will just go in circles and never admit he contradicted himself or is wrong...its amusing for a while but gets old real quick...like i said a degenerative brain disorder that is rapidly progressing...
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« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2010, 07:44:48 PM »

Straw - can you name one modern day liberal, in what we refer to as a 2010 liberal, who you believe most emulates George Washington? 
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« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2010, 07:50:40 PM »

sigh, you squirm like the best of them straw.   Smiley

Would Washington be considered a liberal (the political definition) by today's standards?

Its a real simple question that can have a simple answer and the answer is pertinent to your original premise. 



already responded as you requested

go look at the bottom of page 3

you're welcome
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« Reply #90 on: July 28, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »

LOL just quit now oz he will just go in circles and never admit he contradicted himself or is wrong...its amusing for a while but gets old real quick...like i said a degenerative brain disorder that is rapidly progressing...

feel free to point out the contradiction you think you see
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« Reply #91 on: July 28, 2010, 08:12:26 PM »

feel free to point out the contradiction you think you see
you said you cant really define a modern day liberal but you think washington would be considered one...
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« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2010, 08:16:47 PM »

you said you cant really define a modern day liberal but you think washington would be considered one...

fair enough but I made the first comment and then did more research and reading and then since Ozmo insisted upon a yes or no answer I gave him a qualified answer based on a specific defnition

For further clarity, I will say (again) that Washington was a radical and liberal in his time and I think, given todays standards of a "LIB" he would still be considered on today.   I think that's pretty consistent with the progression of my thought on this thread.
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« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2010, 08:20:11 PM »

already responded as you requested

go look at the bottom of page 3

you're welcome

No, you didn't, you gave a general definition not political one.  I feel like i am arguing on the Religious board now.   Smiley It's cool though.  I know don't enough about Washington and his politics to definitively say one way or another.  I was hoping you did, but it seems like all you've been doing is scrambling to defend a poor premise.  Based on what he said and what the political definition of liberal is today, from the limited information i have, of which some came from this thread, i wouldn't say they match.

So there's no need to feel ashamed that Washington was a filthy stinking lib and try and rethink my views of liberals which weren't so bad to begin with.  
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« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2010, 08:27:32 PM »

fair enough but I made the first comment and then did more research and reading and then since Ozmo insisted upon a yes or no answer I gave him a qualified answer based on a specific defnition

For further clarity, I will say (again) that Washington was a radical and liberal in his time and I think, given todays standards of a "LIB" he would still be considered on today.   I think that's pretty consistent with the progression of my thought on this thread.

your definition of todays lib could easily be a difinition of conservative  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »

No, you didn't, you gave a general definition not political one.  I feel like i am arguing on the Religious board now.   Smiley It's cool though.  I know don't enough about Washington and his politics to definitively say one way or another.  I was hoping you did, but it seems like all you've been doing is scrambling to defend a poor premise.  Based on what he said and what the political definition of liberal is today, from the limited information i have, of which some came from this thread, i wouldn't say they match.

So there's no need to feel ashamed that Washington was a filthy stinking lib and try and rethink my views of liberals which weren't so bad to begin with.  

dude - go back and read the first question you asked me in this thread.

Did I make any definitive claims about what  liberal was then or today or anything?

Washington referred to liberal and liberality and he did that in the late 1700's

The quote by Washington was about "mankind" becoming more liberal.  That is not a political context (IMO) and the so called "classical" definition did not even exist at the time of that statement.

My point is calling Washington a filthy stinnking LIB is because that is how a LIB is considered today as framed by the right and I was pointing out the irony of our founding father musing that he hopes to see the nation he helped create "among the foremost nations of justice and liberality"
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« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2010, 08:49:44 PM »

dude - go back and read the first question you asked me in this thread.

Did I make any definitive claims about what  liberal was then or today or anything?

Washington referred to liberal and liberality and he did that in the late 1700's

The quote by Washington was about "mankind" becoming more liberal.  That is not a political context (IMO) and the so called "classical" definition did not even exist at the time of that statement.

My point is calling Washington a filthy stinnking LIB is because that is how a LIB is considered today as framed by the right and I was pointing out the irony of our founding father musing that he hopes to see the nation he helped create "among the foremost nations of justice and liberality"

It seems to me, you have to look at what he meant or was meaning and how it relates to the modern definition of Modern Liberalism because you are making the connection not him.  Your point is valid only as its a play on words because if he was talking about the general definition of liberality, you comparing or connecting it to modern liberalism is like comparing apples to bowling pins.  In other words, upon further review, there is no irony.  If you were talking about the political definitions of both then there's no way you can say they are the same.     
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« Reply #97 on: July 28, 2010, 08:50:57 PM »

It seems to me, you have to look at what he meant or was meaning and how it relates to the modern definition of Modern Liberalism because you are making the connection not him.  Your point is valid only as its a play on words because if he was talking about the general definition of liberality, you comparing or connecting it to modern liberalism is like comparing apples to bowling pins.  In other words, upon further review, there is no irony.  If you were talking about the political definitions of both then there's no way you can say they are the same.     
oz oz oz youre making to much sense today
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« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2010, 06:53:49 AM »

Straw - can you name one modern day liberal, in what we refer to as a 2010 liberal, who you believe most emulates George Washington? 

BUMP FOR AN ANSWER FROM STRAW
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« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2010, 08:25:40 AM »

BUMP FOR AN ANSWER FROM STRAW

who would I compare him too and based on what criteria?

There were no Republicans or Democrats in Washingtons time.

There was no conservative angst against "big government" either

There clearly were people who considered themselves liberal based on the definition of the time (and not the "classical" political definition which didn't even exist at the time of Washingtons comments.)

The foundations of this country are based on liberal ideas of the time

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