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tonymctones
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« Reply #250 on: September 02, 2010, 06:06:51 AM »

What would your views on torture have been if Clinton had introduced "waterboarding" during the 1990s?

You know you would be going nuts over how wrong it is.

Maybe we should start suicide bombing.

It's funny that people call torture an "interrogation technique".  Would child abuse be a "parenting technique"?
NOT ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE... Cool

I dont care who introduced it, you really think we werent doing it under clinton?  Roll Eyes

fact is there are ppl out there who are trying to hurt us, I am for doing ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to prevent that from happening that doesnt infringe on our rights...screw their percieved rights they are against us they have no rights...

let me know when a parent targets a building full of kids b/c they are against children and we will talk... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #251 on: September 02, 2010, 06:21:36 AM »

NOT ONE DAMN BIT OF DIFFERENCE... Cool

I dont care who introduced it, you really think we werent doing it under clinton?  Roll Eyes

fact is there are ppl out there who are trying to hurt us, I am for doing ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to prevent that from happening that doesnt infringe on our rights...screw their percieved rights they are against us they have no rights...

let me know when a parent targets a building full of kids b/c they are against children and we will talk... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I would hate a country and a government that subverts democracy, topples democratically elected governments, and steals and exploits my country's resources.  Iran is a perfect example.  Who the fuck do you think overthrew Mossadegh in the 1950s.  Then who the fuck do you think overthrew the Shah in the 1970s and installed Ayatollah?HuhHuh  You're just a dumb fuck who knows nothinng about history. 
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« Reply #252 on: September 02, 2010, 06:26:43 AM »

I would hate a country and a government that subverts democracy, topples democratically elected governments, and steals and exploits my country's resources.  Iran is a perfect example.  Who the fuck do you think overthrew Mossadegh in the 1950s.  Then who the fuck do you think overthrew the Shah in the 1970s and installed Ayatollah?HuhHuh  You're just a dumb fuck who knows nothinng about history. 
where did I say anything about interferring in other countries goings on?

I think we should leave them alone but if they feel they dont want to leave us alone then we should do everything in our power to stop them from hurting us. Saying that we have a moral high ground that wont let us do certain things is bull shit to me you can keep that moral high ground I think Ill keep my life and peace of mind thanks.
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« Reply #253 on: September 02, 2010, 06:30:02 AM »

Typical morons on getbig............the arguments weren't about whether or not the founding fathers believed in god............or a god..........they didn't consider themselves Christians.  Do most of you even understand that difference?  Obviously not.  For fuck's sake why the fuck do you idiots even care? It's not like you all are Christians yourselves.  I mean how many of you even go to church on Sunday?   Roll Eyes

 "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Thomas Jefferson

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is part of the common law"  James Wilson

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."  George Washington

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" George Washington

"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams

 "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Samuel Adams

"I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."  Samuel Adams

"My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" Benjamin Rush

"Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

" In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life" John Langdon

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer." &guy Sherman

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness" John Hancock
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« Reply #254 on: September 02, 2010, 06:31:16 AM »

James laying the smackdown. 

BTW - why did we let Straw off the hook in the thread backfire? 
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« Reply #255 on: September 02, 2010, 07:13:44 AM »

"I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Thomas Jefferson

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is part of the common law"  James Wilson

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."  George Washington

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" George Washington

"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams

 "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Samuel Adams

"I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."  Samuel Adams

"My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" Benjamin Rush

"Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

" In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life" John Langdon

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer." &guy Sherman

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness" John Hancock


I think those guys said a lot of things.  They were in a sense "politicians"  Smiley

Quote
"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
Jefferson

    "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature.  They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
Jefferson

"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
Jefferson

"I looked around for God's judgments, but saw no signs of them."
Franklin

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."
Franklin

"What is it the New Testament teaches us?  To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church,  nor by any Church that I know of.  My own mind is my own Church.  Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
Paine

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it."
Adams



". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
Adams



I don't believe they we athiests, but i do believe they were practical when it came to religion.
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« Reply #256 on: September 02, 2010, 07:36:12 AM »

Most of those quotes are taken out of context anyways. 
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« Reply #257 on: September 02, 2010, 07:39:29 AM »

Most of those quotes are taken out of context anyways. 
well then by all means mcmannus put them into context for us  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #258 on: September 02, 2010, 10:24:51 AM »


So what is your fucking point?  Let's put it on record here and now.  Are you saying most of the founding fathers were in fact Christians?  LOL

Yes I am. When you read that prayer of GW how could you think anything else? The quotes I listed a couple pages back, you know, the 20+ direct quotes, not misconstrued, but direct quotes from founders that all speak of their love for Christ, divine providence, etc...if you wouldn't call them Christians what would you call them?

OK, once again....


Benjamin Franklin: Author of Dec. IND and just about ever U.S.doc in history of the founding:

"Here is my creed. I believe in one God, the creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.

Thomas Jefferson: President of the United States, author of Dec. IND & Const:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event"

George Washington: Everyone knows who this one is

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ"

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."



Samuel Adams:Known as "The Father of the American Revolution" and signer of the Declaration of Independence

"I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."


Benjamin Rush: Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!"

John Dickinson: Signer of the Constitution
"Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity."

John Hancock: Signer of the Deceleration of Independence
" I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God"

Patrick Henry: Governor of Virginia and Writer of Articles of Confederation
"This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."


John Jay: First Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
"Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!"

Henry Knox: Revolutionary War General & Secretary of War

"First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe – to that great and tremendous Jehovah, – Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection."

John Langdon: Signer of the Constitution
" In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life"



Roger Sherman: Signer of the Declaration of Independence & Constitution
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer."

Prayer of George Washington:

“O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

"Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
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« Reply #259 on: September 02, 2010, 10:58:39 AM »

LOL they should remain this thread "the thread of liberal pwnage"
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« Reply #260 on: September 02, 2010, 11:00:53 AM »

LOL they should remain this thread "the thread of liberal pwnage"

I am not a religious person at all.  i have not been to church for mass in probably 20 years. 

However, the idea that our fundamental rights come from anyone but God is beyond unfathomable to me.   
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« Reply #261 on: September 04, 2010, 10:08:49 AM »

"I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Thomas Jefferson

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."
Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is part of the common law"  James Wilson

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."  George Washington

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" George Washington

"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams

 "First of all, I ... rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Samuel Adams

"I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."  Samuel Adams

"My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!" Benjamin Rush

"Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. John Dickinson

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." Patrick Henry

" In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life" John Langdon

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer." &guy Sherman

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness" John Hancock


well this thread was not about Jefferson or Christianity but I'll be glad to play dueling quotes.

I haven't bothered to check if the quotes above are even real but I'll assume they are.

One has to wonder why a politician might pretend to be a religious person or even a Christian.

We never see that today do we?

No one ever suspects that politicians might be trying to appeal to a constintuency?  

That never happens does it?

We know Jefferson liked the "philosophy" of Jesus because he went so far as to write his own version of the Bible.   He just removed all the supernatural mumbo jumbo and the part about Jesus being a God.  

There is no doubt that some of the founders considered themselves Christian but many others shared the same view that many people today do.  They might call themselves Christian but they pick and choose the stuff they like and just ignore the stuff they don't.  

Let's start with Jefferson:

btw - how cool would it be if any modern politician had the balls to talk as Jefferson did (and as many of his contemporaries did) on the subject of religion

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

Thomas Jefferson (this one might be my favorite)

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ."


and.......Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."
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« Reply #262 on: September 04, 2010, 02:35:33 PM »

You know Straw those quotes are a bit suspicious for one reason and I'll explain.

I think I mentioned this in another thread but I can't remember for certain; Jefferson, over his lifetime, wrote approximately 70,000+ documents and letters. Of those 70,000+, 70 of them, give or take a few, I can't remember the exact number, but some 70 of them have things in them that might make one question what Jefferson's beliefs were. In those 70 docs/letters, he questions God, questions Christianity, etc. But in the 69,930 other letters it is quite the opposite.

So what now? Do we ignore the 69,930 letters and focus only on the 70 or do we consider the whole package?

Also, when I was in school, the way Jefferson was portrayed to me was a little strange, something never added up. After graduation I decided I'd do my own study on Jefferson. At one time he was my least favorite founding father but he may very well be my favorite now...either him or GW but the point is, of those 70,000 documents and letters Jefferson wrote, I've read about half, or close to it, hopefully in another ten yrs I'll have read all of them but who knows, some are hard to find. Point being, the quotes you posted, the language, they way he's talking, not only are those quotes very much out of context, some of the wording is downright fake...I'm 100% positive about that. I wouldn't make that claim if you posted stuff from other founders with certainty except when it comes to Hamilton, Jefferson and Washington, on those three I'm positive about.
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« Reply #263 on: September 04, 2010, 03:08:26 PM »

I can post other quotes from "founders' and there contemporaries but there is plenty of supporting evidence about Jefferson just from comments from other people about him in his own time or slightly after his time.  

One example would be the opposition by religous leaders in his time who fought to prevent his election on the grounds that he was an infidel and did not believe in divine revelation

the following is a cut and paste job but it's faster than paraphrasing:

The irony of this situation is that the Christian leaders of Jefferson's time knew where he stood on "biblical principles," and they fought desperately, but unsuccessfully, to prevent his election to the presidency. Saul K. Padover's biography related the bitterness of the opposition that the clergy mounted against Jefferson in the campaign of 1800

Quote
The religious issue was dragged out, and stirred up flames of hatred and intolerance. Clergymen, mobilizing their heaviest artillery of thunder and brimstone, threatened Christians with all manner of dire consequences if they should vote for the "in fidel" from Virginia. This was particularly true in New England, where the clergy stood like Gibraltar against Jefferson (Jefferson A Great American's Life and Ideas, Mentor Books, 1964, p.116).

this one is kind of reminscint of some of the modern day right wing arguments against Obama and to some extent even Kerry

Quote
William Linn, a Dutch Reformed minister in New York City, made perhaps the most violent of all attacks on Jefferson's character, all of it based on religious matters. In a pamphlet entitled Serious Considerations on the Election of a President, Linn "accused Jefferson of the heinous crimes of not believing in divine revelation and of a design to destroy religion and `introduce immorality'" (Padover, p. 116). He referred to Jefferson as a "true infidel" and insisted that "(a)n infidel like Jefferson could not, should not, be elected" (Padover, p. 117). He concluded the pamphlet with this appeal for "Christians to defeat the `infidel' from Virginia"

After Jefferson became president, he did not compromise his beliefs. As president, he refused to issue Thanksgiving proclamations, a fact that Justice Souter referred to in his concurring opinion with the majority in Lee vs. Weisman, the recent supreme-court decision that ruled prayers at graduation ceremonies unconstitutional.

Early in his first presidential term, Jefferson declared his firm belief in the separation of church and state in a letter to the Danbury (Connecticut) Baptists "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Before sending the letter to Danbury, Jefferson asked his attorney general, Levi Lincoln, to review it. Jefferson told Lincoln that he considered the letter a means of "sowing useful truths and principles among the people, which might germinate and become rooted among their political tenets" (quoted by Rob Boston in "Myths and Mischief," Church and State, March 1992). If this was indeed Jefferson's wish, he certainly succeeded. Twice, in Reynolds vs. the United States (1879) and Everson vs. Board of Education (1947), the Supreme Court cited Jefferson's letter as "an authoritative declaration of the scope of the [First] Amendment" and agreed that the intention of the First Amendment was "to erect `a wall of separation between church and state.'"

Here is some more historical third party evidence on the beliefs or lack thereof of the founders:

The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, preached a sermon in October 1831 in which he stated that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism" (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15). He went on to describe Washington as a "great and good man" but "not a professor of religion." Wilson said that he was "really a typical eighteenth century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook" (Ibid.). Wilson wasn't just speaking about matters that he had not researched, because he had carefully investigated his subject before he preached this sermon. Among others, Wilson had inquired of the Reverend Abercrombie [identified earlier as the rector of the church Washington had attended] concerning Washing ton's religious views. Abercrombie's response was brief and to the point "Sir, Washington was a Deist" (Remsberg, p. 110). Those, then, who were best positioned to know Washington's private religious beliefs did not consider him a Christian, and the Reverend Abercrombie, who knew him personally and pastored the church he attended with his wife flatly said that Washington was a Deist.

"The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity"  (Remsberg, p. 120, emphasis added).

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« Reply #264 on: September 04, 2010, 05:36:49 PM »

This is for you Strawman.

Thomas Jefferson's own words:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ"
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« Reply #265 on: September 04, 2010, 05:55:06 PM »

This is for you Strawman.

Thomas Jefferson's own words:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ"

yep - I already mentioned that Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible highlighting the moral philosphy of Jesus and taking out all references to the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, and the resurection.

that was his version of being a "real" christian.
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« Reply #266 on: September 04, 2010, 09:43:21 PM »

yep - I already mentioned that Jefferson wrote his own version of the bible highlighting the moral philosphy of Jesus and taking out all references to the trinity, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, and the resurection.

that was his version of being a "real" christian.


If I posted a picture of the sky and said "look Strawman, the sky is blue" would you then say, "No it's not, it's green and it's not the sky, it's grass." Then I would say, "Look Strawman, there's an airplane in the picture and a bird, see those white things, they're clouds." Would you then say, "This is not a picture we're looking at, it's a holographic image perceived by our own brains due to the extensive and sophisticated wire networking fused within us by the RoboToid slaves from the planet Omicron Persei 8."

Maybe I'm a little off but I'd say the conversation would be pretty close to that.
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« Reply #267 on: September 04, 2010, 09:49:56 PM »

Good luck Arnold.  lol . . . .  I like this thread.   Smiley

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« Reply #268 on: September 04, 2010, 10:40:22 PM »

Good luck Arnold.  lol . . . .  I like this thread.   Smiley



I think it'll take a lot more than good luck. If I had Bill & Ted's phone booth time machine and brought Jefferson back to speak with strawman, I'm pretty sure he'd argue to his face and try to tell him what he believed because some random third party told him so. Party on, lol!
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« Reply #269 on: September 05, 2010, 06:55:38 AM »

If I posted a picture of the sky and said "look Strawman, the sky is blue" would you then say, "No it's not, it's green and it's not the sky, it's grass." Then I would say, "Look Strawman, there's an airplane in the picture and a bird, see those white things, they're clouds." Would you then say, "This is not a picture we're looking at, it's a holographic image perceived by our own brains due to the extensive and sophisticated wire networking fused within us by the RoboToid slaves from the planet Omicron Persei 8."

Maybe I'm a little off but I'd say the conversation would be pretty close to that.

the sky actually isn't blue

what's your point

If you think Jefferson was a christian then you're right as long as your definition of christian is someone who doesn't believe in the divinity of jesus, doesn't believe in the resurection, doesn't believe in the miracles, the virgin birth, the trinity etc....

that is Jefferson's "real christian"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Washington was a Deist as were many of the other founders
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« Reply #270 on: September 05, 2010, 08:42:59 AM »

Yes, Straw girl is retarded.

However, the more interesting thing I found in your post is the reference of Omicron Persei 8.

Maybe I'm not as up on the new episodes of Futurama as I should be, but there are no robotoid slaves on Omicron Persei 8.

Morbo and especially Ler would be outraged.
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« Reply #271 on: September 05, 2010, 12:29:19 PM »

Yes, Straw girl is retarded.

However, the more interesting thing I found in your post is the reference of Omicron Persei 8.

Maybe I'm not as up on the new episodes of Futurama as I should be, but there are no robotoid slaves on Omicron Persei 8.

Morbo and especially Ler would be outraged.

The new episodes are pretty good, I've seen a couple of them. And you're right, no robotoid slaves on Omicron Persei 8...I was more or less just typing out of my ass on that one, lol!

BTW, Major LOL@ Morbo and Ler comment!!!!
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« Reply #272 on: September 05, 2010, 01:00:36 PM »

Our forefathers could have never imagined our government growing so large, cumbersome, and intrusive into the lives of citizens. A time will come when we're all crushed under its weight.

Exactly. 
If you actually understand what Washington is saying, he wants to see a "liberal" country that ISN'T intrusive into the lives of people by RESTRICTING freedom.  He wants a country that protects its citizens by staying OUT of their lives and not refusing rights and privileges because of race, creed, sex, etc. 

That is NOT modern liberalism.  He is NOT hoping for a country that wants to force its way into the daily life of every citizen.  He wants the country to be so "liberal" that it allows EVERYONE the freedom to prosper without unjust prejudice. 

Way to see the word "liberal" and not understand the context of its use. 
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« Reply #273 on: September 05, 2010, 01:03:30 PM »

The new episodes are pretty good, I've seen a couple of them. And you're right, no robotoid slaves on Omicron Persei 8...I was more or less just typing out of my ass on that one, lol!

BTW, Major LOL@ Morbo and Ler comment!!!!

Honestly, I am severely dissipointed in the new season. I would say that there were 2 or 3 good episodes, with the rest being average or completely awful. All the movies were pretty good except Benders game which completely sucked ass. I hope they get back to form next season and don't turn the show into another Simpsons- mostly watchable, but not really funny.
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« Reply #274 on: September 05, 2010, 05:51:20 PM »

Honestly, I am severely dissipointed in the new season. I would say that there were 2 or 3 good episodes, with the rest being average or completely awful. All the movies were pretty good except Benders game which completely sucked ass. I hope they get back to form next season and don't turn the show into another Simpsons- mostly watchable, but not really funny.

From the episodes I've seen I agree, it's not as good but there's still some funny stuff. And I agree, I hope it doesn't take the Simpsons path, that show has really flat lined.
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