Christian Fundamentalists

[Agnostic007]

No it doesn't.  See my prior posts.

Your post didnt really address the scriptures, just stated your general opinion on what you think the bible might actually mean to say, without supporting  it with scripture.. "I feel.." "I think..."  don't really counteract cold hard scriptures that clearly state qoutes from Jesus on prayer and healing. Again, you can argue all you want to that my line of thinking is ludicrous, but it really proves my point in the end.. 

[MCWAY]

Your post didnt really address the scriptures, just stated your general opinion on what you think the bible might actually mean to say, without supporting  it with scripture.. "I feel.." "I think..."  don't really counteract cold hard scriptures that clearly state qoutes from Jesus on prayer and healing. Again, you can argue all you want to that my line of thinking is ludicrous, but it really proves my point in the end.. 

Your post didnt really address the scriptures, just stated your general opinion on what you think the bible might actually mean to say, without supporting  it with scripture.. "I feel.." "I think..."  don't really counteract cold hard scriptures that clearly state qoutes from Jesus on prayer and healing. Again, you can argue all you want to that my line of thinking is ludicrous, but it really proves my point in the end.. 

Not quite. Here's an example. The woman with the blood disease in Matt. 9 and Mark 5. Scripture says she sought medical help for 12 years. Obviously, she was a woman of faith. She believed that Jesus was the Messiah and figured that all she had to do is touch Jesus' garment, to be made whole.

Mark 5:25-29:

And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years and had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse. When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, 'If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole'.  And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 

The point, of course, is that (as Beach Bum stated) nowhere does the Christian faith bar seeking medical treatment. In fact, if you look at the Gospels, you will see examples like this, in which people went to Jesus for healing AFTER seeking medical treatment without success.

The most extreme examples of this, obviously, are the people Jesus raised from the dead (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc.).
 

[Butterbean]

From Mark 16;

 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

If you read from verse 14 you will see this more clearly I think:

He is addressing the eleven remaining apostles:

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

"He rebuked them for their lack of faith and stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen"......then He told them what they should do and what they would see (possibly as proof and encouragement to them of the reality of truth of these people's conversions).


My point is He was talking specifically to the Eleven here about what they would see regarding those who believed and were saved from their preaching of the good news.



Do I pray for people to get healed?  Sure.  I've been praying for a friend to be healed of cancer.  He died but when he was first diagnosed he was given a lot less time than what he lived he and his family are Christians and they went for chemo.  


The bible does not forbid medical care.



I see the point you are trying to make but even if we take the part of your specific verse:

18...... they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

It does not forbid receiving medical care.    



Also,

Matthew 9:12

On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

[Hustle Man]

These verses have been mis-interpreted by many extreme Christian fundamentalists sects. Let's break these scriptures down and see other scriptures in bible that coincide with these verses.
Mark 16:16-18

16 Whoever believes (in Christ) and is baptized (with the Holy Spirit) will be saved (have salvation), but whoever does not believe (in Christ) will be condemned (to Hell, everlasting darkness apart from God).

See: John 3:18 (He that believeth not. Remains in a state of unbelief. Such have no promise., John 3:36, Acts 16:31, Ephesians 4:4-6 (There is one faith and one baptism) and Matthew 3:11 (the Holy Spirit will baptize with fire)

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;



18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


I will come back and finish this later.

HM

[Dos Equis]

Your post didnt really address the scriptures, just stated your general opinion on what you think the bible might actually mean to say, without supporting  it with scripture.. "I feel.." "I think..."  don't really counteract cold hard scriptures that clearly state qoutes from Jesus on prayer and healing. Again, you can argue all you want to that my line of thinking is ludicrous, but it really proves my point in the end.. 

Actually I did address the scriptures by pointing they don't say anything about not seeking medical treatment.  You might have a point if the verses specifically said don't go to the doctor.  They don't. 

Another example:  there are promises of blessings if you tithe.  Does that mean if you tithe, but borrow, irresponsibly spend, and don't work that you will become wealthy?  No, because other parts of the Bible talk about the dangers of borrowing, the importance of hard work, the dangers of "sloth," and perfecting your trade/profession. 

The only way you can have a true understanding of the Bible is to compare scripture with scripture, put things in context, and use common sense. 

[ToxicAvenger]

 what the fuck is wrong with people

lol so when christians do it...its the "people" to blame

when muslims do it...its the "religion" to blame     

o brotha 

[Straw Man]

This is a religious discussion.  

excellent call

even though their religions beliefs influenced their actions and led the tragic unnecessary death of their child  and eventually a court case and a conviction I agree with you 100% that we need to keep church and state separated

[Dos Equis]

 

[Agnostic007]

"Actually I did address the scriptures by pointing they don't say anything about not seeking medical treatment.  You might have a point if the verses specifically said don't go to the doctor.  They don't."

Even then, some would find a way around it.. for example, Jesus specifically said don't pray in public, but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray.. yet we have people circumventing his teaching with what they think he meant, what he really meant.. what he probably coulda meant..

For a non christian, any debate over Christianity is really just an excercise in debate, which by the way, I don't mind a bit.

In Stellas example of the woman who sought medical attention for 12 yrs prior to her faith healing her, I know that Jesus was only active for 3 yrs in his ministry. He did not teach about praying for healing, or for anything prior to that.

In his statement about the sick needing a doctor, it was a metaphor for the sinful needing a savior.

When this thread started, someone said "I take the bible literally too but I dont...."  My points have been that if you ARE going to take the bible literally, then take it literally. If Jesus says YOU can do this and more if you have the faith of a mustard seed, then you should believe you can. If you don't, then you lose the right to say "I take the bible literally too..."

 

[Dos Equis]

"Actually I did address the scriptures by pointing they don't say anything about not seeking medical treatment.  You might have a point if the verses specifically said don't go to the doctor.  They don't."

Even then, some would find a way around it.. for example, Jesus specifically said don't pray in public, but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray.. yet we have people circumventing his teaching with what they think he meant, what he really meant.. what he probably coulda meant..

For a non christian, any debate over Christianity is really just an excercise in debate, which by the way, I don't mind a bit.

In Stellas example of the woman who sought medical attention for 12 yrs prior to her faith healing her, I know that Jesus was only active for 3 yrs in his ministry. He did not teach about praying for healing, or for anything prior to that.

In his statement about the sick needing a doctor, it was a metaphor for the sinful needing a savior.

When this thread started, someone said "I take the bible literally too but I dont...."  My points have been that if you ARE going to take the bible literally, then take it literally. If Jesus says YOU can do this and more if you have the faith of a mustard seed, then you should believe you can. If you don't, then you lose the right to say "I take the bible literally too..."

 

Kinda going in circles, but you have to compare Scripture with Scripture, put things in context, and use common sense.  Taking a single verse and trying to build an entire argument for or against something is not how you properly interpret the Bible, or pretty much any other writing.

In any event, at the end of the day, there is no "literal" verse, chapter, etc. in the Bible that prohibits seeking medical treatment.  

[Butterbean]

lol so when christians do it...its the "people" to blame
 
when muslims do it...its the "religion" to blame      
 
o brotha  

Toxy, I def. see your point you are trying to make but someone on here somewhere said something like there are like 110 "verses"or whatever in the Quran calling for violence against Jews, Christians, and other "infidels".....(something like that I don't remember exactly)  Do you think that is that right?
 

In Stellas example of the woman who sought medical attention for 12 yrs prior to her faith healing her, I know that Jesus was only active for 3 yrs in his ministry. He did not teach about praying for healing, or for anything prior to that.
 
In his statement about the sick needing a doctor, it was a metaphor for the sinful needing a savior.
 
When this thread started, someone said "I take the bible literally too but I dont...."  My points have been that if you ARE going to take the bible literally, then take it literally. If Jesus says YOU can do this and more if you have the faith of a mustard seed, then you should believe you can. If you don't, then you lose the right to say "I take the bible literally too..."
 

I think that was MCWAY's example about the woman..
 

I think when people say they take the bible literally, that statement itself could be seen as incorrect if you are talking about every single word/sentence/etc.  For instance "having faith THE SIZE of a mustard seed cannot be taken perfectly literally because faith is not an animate obect like a mustard seed and it's size.  
 
Plus for example some of the things that sound like creatures in Revelation are things described by a man that lived ~2000 years ago...maybe he is describing actual creatures and maybe he is doing his best to describe something like an Apache Helicopter.  
 
I think when people say they take the bible literally they mean they believe literally the parts that CAN be taken literally.  Like they believe that Jesus was/is real, the story of His ministry, life and death is true, what the bible said He said is true etc......I think that's what they mean....I guess by saying we take it literally can be confusing to people because by just saying that, we don't go into the depth of an explanation of what we mean....and it may really seem too broad and confusing.

I just read that last paragraph again...it's probably confusing in itself... sorry!

[ToxicAvenger]

Toxy, I def. see your point you are trying to make but someone on here somewhere said something like there are like 110 "verses"or whatever in the Quran calling for violence against Jews, Christians, and other "infidels".....(something like that I don't remember exactly)  Do you think that is that right?
  

lol and u believed him stells....i koow millions of uneducated pakistani muslims that believe EXACTLY that about the bible...and i can say they r 3rd world uneducated...dont know any better scum...

at least you have the privilidge of being born into a firsrt world country and being educated...so WHY o why do you 1st world people end up thinking exactly like a 3rd world idiot?   ...someone told me so i believed him/her    ..THAT is your excuse??  omg  

[Butterbean]

lol and u believed him stells....i koow millions of uneducated pakistani muslims that believe EXACTLY that about the bible...and i can say they r 3rd world uneducated...dont know any better scum...

at least you have the privilidge of being born into a firsrt world country and being educated...so WHY o why do you 1st world people end up thinking exactly like a 3rd world idiot?   ...someone told me so i believed him/her    ..THAT is your excuse??  omg  

Where did I say I believed them?  I stated (something along the lines of) what I remembered they stated.  I was telling you what I read here and asking you if it is correct.  I don't know if it's true or not.  

Didn't mean to make you angry.  I will look into it myself.  Thanks.

[Agnostic007]

Some things religions have in common. (As with most things, there are exceptions)

1. They are right, everyone else thinks they are
2. Their religion makes more sense than anyone elses, everyone else just thinks theirs does
3. They have an open line to god, the others think they have
4. Most followers parents are of the same religion
5. Most can find fault and/or atrocities in other peoples religious books



 

[Dos Equis]

Some things religions have in common. (As with most things, there are exceptions)

1. They are right, everyone else thinks they are
2. Their religion makes more sense than anyone elses, everyone else just thinks theirs does
3. They have an open line to god, the others think they have
4. Most followers parents are of the same religion
5. Most can find fault and/or atrocities in other peoples religious books



 

And your point is . . . .? 

You can say the same thing about political affiliations, citizenship and patriotism, favorite sports teams, etc. 

[ToxicAvenger]

 

Didn't mean to make you angry.  I will look into it myself.  Thanks.

of course i got pissed stells....if you were some idiot like BF i'd take it in stride...
i expect smarter thoughts from  you...simple..so it DOES anger me when you say something... "common"

[Agnostic007]

And your point is . . . .? 

You can say the same thing about political affiliations, citizenship and patriotism, favorite sports teams, etc. 

Exactly...

[Dos Equis]

Exactly...

Not following you.  What's your point?  How does this relate to the medical treatment issue? 

[Agnostic007]

Not following you.  What's your point?  How does this relate to the medical treatment issue? 

It doesn't, but I felt really smarmy and intellectual posting it...

[Butterbean]

It doesn't, but I felt really smarmy and intellectual posting it...

lol!  This reminds me of Al-Gebra    PIP

[Agnostic007]

It ties in..

Some christians think the christians that pray for healing instead of seeking medical treatment misinterpret the scriptures. Christians who pray for healing rather than seek medical attention think the other christians misinterpret the scripture.

For a book, (collection of manuscripts) allegedly written by a living god, who alledgedly lets the holy ghost guide and interpret for the followers, and followers can alledgedly ask the author (God) questions, there are a distrubing number of Christian sects/factions that can't agree on what the bible actually says..

[Dos Equis]

It ties in..

Some christians think the christians that pray for healing instead of seeking medical treatment misinterpret the scriptures. Christians who pray for healing rather than seek medical attention think the other christians misinterpret the scripture.

For a book, (collection of manuscripts) allegedly written by a living god, who alledgedly lets the holy ghost guide and interpret for the followers, and followers can alledgedly ask the author (God) questions, there are a distrubing number of Christian sects/factions that can't agree on what the bible actually says..

Nothing ties in.  It doesn't really matter what some Christians think.  It matters what the Bible says.  All of it, in context.  There is nothing in the Bible that says you shouldn't go to the doctor.  Anyone who believes you should not go to the doctor is not relying on a "literal" interpretation of the Bible, because it doesn't say any such thing.  And as Stella pointed out, one of the disciples was a doctor.  Really makes zero sense.   

If you're looking for contradictions, this one is awfully weak. 

[Agnostic007]

Nothing ties in.  It doesn't really matter what some Christians think.  It matters what the Bible says.  All of it, in context.  There is nothing in the Bible that says you shouldn't go to the doctor.  Anyone who believes you should not go to the doctor is not relying on a "literal" interpretation of the Bible, because it doesn't say any such thing.  And as Stella pointed out, one of the disciples was a doctor.  Really makes zero sense.   

If you're looking for contradictions, this one is awfully weak. 

But it does tie in... On one hand you say it doesnt matter what some christians think...it matters what the bible says.. Problem is.. you can have 50 christians read the  bible and come up with at least 15 different interpretations of what the bible says.. hence the 400 + denominations caused by 1 book. 

[Dos Equis]

But it does tie in... On one hand you say it doesnt matter what some christians think...it matters what the bible says.. Problem is.. you can have 50 christians read the  bible and come up with at least 15 different interpretations of what the bible says.. hence the 400 + denominations caused by 1 book. 

Ties in to what?  You're sort of all over the place.  Are you talking about medical treatment?  Or just making some broad statement?  Really not sure what you're trying to say. 

If you're now trying to say that different people have different interpretations of the Bible, you get no argument from me.  But so what?  I really don't see a problem there.  The vast majority of Christians read the same Bible and agree on most of their core beliefs.  The fact some disagree on varying points just means that reasonable minds can disagree.  Big deal. 

Just like you have different kinds of atheists.  There are smart ones who simply believe in nothing, then there are the paranoid anti-religious extremists who advocate "de-baptism," file lawsuits, go to atheist churches, etc.