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Author Topic: [UPDATE - Partially healed] Supraspinatus tear ?? Something else?? YOU DECIDE  (Read 3670 times)
charles123
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« on: September 16, 2010, 09:12:02 PM »

Hello, so I would like to know what you experts might think happened to my RIGHT shoulder, or if youve had something similar.  Thanks if you can help.

I am maybe 60% - 70% recovered , but still feel really weak compared to before.  I now have a full range of motion without weight, and had that a few months after the incident, but a lot of pressing pain, and when holding out my arm really far, especially with weight.


Here is the description:

I just turned 20.

About 9 months ago, I was doing upright shoulder presses (NOT FLAT PRESSES) with a 60 lb db (usually high-rep for me, but it was at the very end of a long exercise fun session so more difficult)

-I got em into position but was too tired to lift it all the way up, so stupidly instead of dropping it, i tried to slowly lower my arm against it while holding my arm half outstretched, like a reverse forward raise.  It fell a bit faster than it should have. LOL  Cheesy  I know, im a NOOB.

-Up until like 2-3 weeks later, there was a pain in my back, like high lats and it might have been one of those littley tendon insertion points.

-There was no swelling  or redness that i remember

-The back pain vanished quickly

-Shoulder kinda felt instable from that point and still is,, serious pain in AC for a month or 2 especially if moving it or pushing, and alot of popping at the AC, especially with raising and relaxing the arm.  The popping improved some with elastic bands.

-The pain felt/feels kind of sharp, kind of like a pinch but not really.  Definately not a normal muscle pain.

-For first month, AC felt tender/hurt when pushing down on the ac, or maybe it was under the AC.  It doesnt anymore.

-Straight upward pressing, like how i injured it, never hurt at all afterwards, it was always (and still is) flat pressing which bothers me, even though i injured it by "dropping" my arm while pressing upwards.

-Now, I can do flat DB pressing again, but I keep it around 20-25 reps (with 50 lb DBs right now) to be safe with good ROM and keep the pain very low  - the most ive done was 15 x 115 DBs before i hurt em, but my shoulders always felt weak.  I havent dared to touch anything close to that weight.

-I am doing internal and external rotations, my inward rotation has gotten pretty strong but it hurts a teeny bit when going hardcore on the bands than on the uninjured shoulder.

-Outward rotation is weaker than inward on the affected shoulder (probably normal) but no pain, unlike inward.


So there was alot of healing after about 2 months, however, it was disturbing that i couldnt do heavy stuff easily and hearing POP POP POP whenever raising my arm or sticking it in some odd horizontal direction, so i basically quit for many months, until trying to mess with the bands and actually taking the time to research the shoulder anatomy.

Also, are there any exercises im forgetting?  Here are the relevant stuffs im doing:

-External rotation (Band and cord-machine thing)

-Upwards rotation for infra and teres according to wikipedia

-Internal (Band and cord-machine thing)

-Full can raises

-Straight forward raises and all degrees over to the side raises

-Wall pushups

-Pushups

-Rows (bent and seated)

-Shrugs

-Pulldowns

-Presses

-Circular motions

Pec dec and Fly machine

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chaos
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2010, 07:46:38 PM »

Cliff notes?
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charles123
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 06:52:50 PM »

eh Its hard to condense it more.  Embarrassed

injured by trying to resist a falling 50lb DB after somehow failing to shoulder press it.  (like a forward DB raise in reverse)

I was able to do like 50 + pushups 1-2 months after and most of range of motion (full range without weight now), but it still hurts to press straight forward, with heavy weight now like 8-9 months later.  Straight upwards shoulder presses don't hurt at all.  

My best description of what would really hurt (and i havent/wont do it) would be "Twirl/rotate a 30 lb DB around using my wrist with my arm fully extended"

Is it possible its was just a "sprain" that remained tender?

I'm going to try to do hardcore arm circles with light weight all day as my final resort  Undecided
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Montague
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 06:57:36 PM »

Thoracic Outlet?
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charles123
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 07:16:17 PM »

Hmm.. Interesting.  I'll have to do some more research.

Could this be caused by the trauma I described?

I might have the "Adson's sign" for Thoracic Outlet.

The past week or two especially, I've often woken up while sleeping probably 1/3 of the days with no blood flow in my arm..  Dont know if this is usual.  I have to move my arms around for a minute until i regain my sense of touch in the arm.  Next time Ill see if it was the right arm.

Imma try some of the stretches for that.

Quote
# Stretching
The goal of self stretching is to relieve compression in the thoracic cavity, reduce blood vessel and nerve impingement, and realign the bones, muscles, ligaments, and tendons causing the problem.

    * Moving shoulders forward (hunching) then back to neutral, followed by extending them back (arching) then back to neutral, followed by lifting shoulders then back to neutral.
    * Tilting and extending neck opposite to the side of injury while keeping the injured arm down or wrapped around the back.

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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »

Honestly, itís hard to tell.
Even if you visit a string of different specialists, itís possible that not a single one will accurately diagnose your problem.
Unfortunately, you cannot treat a problem without first knowing what it is.

One major complication is that, insofar as symptoms, thereís a great deal of overlap between various conditions.
Even having a combination of several specific symptoms is oftentimes insufficient to pinpoint the problem.
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charles123
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 07:39:00 PM »

Honestly, itís hard to tell.
Even if you visit a string of different specialists, itís possible that not a single one will accurately diagnose your problem.
Unfortunately, you cannot treat a problem without first knowing what it is.

One major complication is that, insofar as symptoms, thereís a great deal of overlap between various conditions.
Even having a combination of several specific symptoms is oftentimes insufficient to pinpoint the problem.


Hmm , well thanks for your potential diagnosis.

If the symptoms overlap, sometimes the conservative treatments might as well though, right?

Good posture, scapular alignment, rotator cuff,...

I'm pretty sure my primary doctor would have no clue about any of the possible issues..

Get Big specialists > doctor
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 05:03:42 AM »

Hmm , well thanks for your potential diagnosis.

If the symptoms overlap, sometimes the conservative treatments might as well though, right?

Good posture, scapular alignment, rotator cuff,...

I'm pretty sure my primary doctor would have no clue about any of the possible issues..

Get Big specialists > doctor



It's possible, but a lot depends on the source of the problem; that's what you really need to address in order to get better.

You're right about PCP's being pretty useless...about the only thing a general doc is good for is writing you a referral if you need one.

I wouldn't take the word of anyone on here over a medical professional, but do bear in mind that even they don't have all the answers and are sometimes wrong.
It's always wise to get several opinions.


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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 09:33:19 AM »

Deep sports massage or Rolfing for first course of action. Spinal adjustment would not be out of the question either.

Agree with Chaos. Sometime they tell the whole story better and shorter. Good Luck.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 12:10:24 PM »

if it is ac joint, best be patient,,, took me well upto a year and a half to start training as i was, and even now i dont do any flat pressing movements what so ever ( i injured mine whilest in the lowering phase of flat db presses, altho i think i damaged it by heavy front squats)

for rehab i was doing broomshank stretches, internal and external rotars, and scap' presses ( a press up using your shoulder blades to do the movement, you can also do this on dipping bars )

get checked out, and good luck
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 01:38:32 PM »

Hey bro, i sympathise with ur problem. I too have a bad shoulder.Partly heavy pressing combined with my kickboxing training it gradually got worse.
Anyway i done all the physio stuff and nothing really changed.I stopped lifting any weights at all for months and nope, again it didnt get any better.
I just decided im going to lift weights again at the time ( overhead db presses didnt hurt mine either, it was only really anything where my arm was out infront of me straight, like front raises would definetly kill ). So after a while of doing heavy DB presses my pain went away to a certain degree.I also elevate it on a pillow everynight sleeping.Its the only comfortable position for me.
2 years later and id say ive got it under control, although i always have to be careful with it.Too much sparring or and BB benching/ pressing will iritate it.I cant even hardly hit the pads or bag more than once a week now.But id rather this than the pain i experienced everyday for a year straight
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charles123
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2011, 07:11:59 PM »

Thanks for the posts guys, wow it's been a long time Grin

Yes, patience is very important.  There may be something wrong in the AC joint, but I recently have come to think that it has something to do with the rhomboids or trapezius, EITHER a small tear and/or protracted shoulder girdle.

best reference on this kind of stuff i've found: http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Posture.html

I stopped exercising for almost 2 years, and just started again.  This time, I did some research, and there's several factors I realized this time:

-prior to "quitting" i had been doing extremely heavy bent-over db rows (with what most of the people here  might call good form, but way to heavy - 150 lb for 20 reps, and i held the protracted position
-when doing seated rows, I always used a weight too heavy to fully contract the scapula, and i held the protracted position (arms stretched out)
-i was spending 8-12 hours per day on computers and doing homework from college after graduating HS
-i also did extremely heavy lat pulldowns (270 x 15) - this pulls the scapula downwards

ALL of these factors stretch out the shoulder girdle forwards.

when i started back up again just a while ago, i tried doing mainly LIGHT weight machine scapular retraction exercises after every set, and within a month of starting (after 2 years of SHIT, like being in pain pressing the 25's LOL) i was back at painlessly pressing the 100 DBs for 15.  I know this isn't anything to brag about, but it's something I'm very grateful for, and thought i'd never do again.

The only symptoms i have right now are a scapula clicking in the top corner nearest the spine every time i raise my right hand, and a pain there when I do the PEC-DEC (hmm..  possibly from the trapezius or rhomboids getting stretched away??)  I stopped using the PEC-DEC.

The clicking is annoying as hell, and is either:

Optimistic:a loose tendon/muscle which is overstretched and snaps over surfaces when contracted (This CAN happen, right??)

OR A torn part of the trapezius/rhomboids tendon/muscle attacted to the scapula hitting it's alive counterparts - trapezius/rhomboids (Oh noes)


Its a long post, but to summarize what has worked for me so far - squeezing the shoulder blades together, both with cable/lever row machine and while sitting, AND stretching the pecs - bringing the bar all the way down to the chest  to really stretch the pecs out (pecs are kind of the antagonist here to the actions of the rhomboids + traps)

Please reply if you found this post interesting or want information  Grin









 








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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 08:12:25 PM »

Never resist a falling weight, no matter how light.
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 11:41:25 PM »

Quit doing presses until you get an accurate diagnosis and MRI.
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