Author Topic: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?  (Read 17013 times)

MB

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #200 on: October 08, 2010, 07:45:31 AM »
I like the idea of being able to opt out of protective services from the fire department.  I wish this extended further and we had the freedom to opt out of auto insurance, social security, soon to be mandatory health insurance, etc.  There is a risk in opting out, but we are suppose to have freedom of choice in America.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #201 on: October 08, 2010, 07:48:32 AM »
I like the idea of being able to opt out of protective services from the fire department.  I wish this extended further and we had the freedom to opt out of auto insurance, social security, soon to be mandatory health insurance, etc.  There is a risk in opting out, but we are suppose to have freedom of choice in America.

I agree, however, what bothers me here is that the guy offered to pay the actual amount, not the $75.00 he should have paid, but they ignored that. 

Ignore EMTALA for a second, for example:  If I show up at a docs office without insurance needing emergency treatment but am willing to pay the actual cost of delivery - would it be morally wrong for them to not treat me? 

Of course there is no techincal legal obligation - but again WTF?  What are we becoming with this stuff?   

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #202 on: October 08, 2010, 07:51:40 AM »
I agree, however, what bothers me here is that the guy offered to pay the actual amount, not the $75.00 he should have paid, but they ignored that. 

Ignore EMTALA for a second, for example:  If I show up at a docs office without insurance needing emergency treatment but am willing to pay the actual cost of delivery - would it be morally wrong for them to not treat me? 

Of course there is no techincal legal obligation - but again WTF?  What are we becoming with this stuff?   

but 33.....I know the guy offered, but to who?  The onsite firefighter most likely.  there is no way he should have to make that call....and if the dipshit had just paid, he wouldn't have to. 

And again, as I mentioned to TA, if the firefighter went in and was injured or killed, he would most likely be denied by his health/life insurance company, so if that happened then people would say, WTF did he go in?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #203 on: October 08, 2010, 07:56:33 AM »
but 33.....I know the guy offered, but to who?  The onsite firefighter most likely.  there is no way he should have to make that call....and if the dipshit had just paid, he wouldn't have to. 

And again, as I mentioned to TA, if the firefighter went in and was injured or killed, he would most likely be denied by his health/life insurance company, so if that happened then people would say, WTF did he go in?

Could be, and I agree the guy is mostly at fault here.  i just think these things can be dealt with differently no resulting in such draconian repurcussions. 

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #204 on: October 08, 2010, 07:58:48 AM »
but 33.....I know the guy offered, but to who?  The onsite firefighter most likely.  there is no way he should have to make that call....and if the dipshit had just paid, he wouldn't have to. 

And again, as I mentioned to TA, if the firefighter went in and was injured or killed, he would most likely be denied by his health/life insurance company, so if that happened then people would say, WTF did he go in?
He offered the Mayor, Clerk, everyone.  Also they have waived the fire fees before and they could have in this instance.

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #205 on: October 08, 2010, 07:59:12 AM »
As an attorney, what galls me the most sometimes is people clinging to hyper techincal details on certain things when everyone knows what the right thing to do is.  

This is especially true in many probate, family law, and divorce cases where siblings, spouses, children get screwed royally due to arcane rules that dont really reflect the reality of way things are.  

Maybe I am just looking at my own lfe and seeing the times where I screwed up, and thankfully, someone bailed me out when they really did not have to but did it out of a sense of something else.  

Did they have a legal obligation to save the home?  No.   Did the guy royally screw up ?  Yes.  Did the guy probably know the result of what would happen?  Yes.  

that being said, I really dont see the big deal of slapping the guy hard with a fine, judgement, lien, whatsever, but saving the house if he was willing to pay for it.          



I think we all look to our experiences on things like this. For example with me, as you know I'm a cop, or at least play one on the internet. I have a book of policies, general orders and SOP's that I have to follow on a daily basis. Most of the rules in the books have someones name by them. In other words, there were very few rules at first, then someone decided that it was cool to ride on the hood of your patrol car while your partner drove after a subject fleeing on foot and jumping off the car and catching the bad guy. The hospital trip for both the officer and the bad guy resulted in the policy that we will not ride on the hood of the car while it is in motion. Fair enough.. With all those rules, we navigate them pretty well on a daily basis. There are those unusual circumstances where we have to break the rule because what happened was something outside the norm and after considering the consequences we chose to do it a different way. When we do that, we must articulate why we felt we had to deviate from the protocol. If it makes sense then we are fine.

In the case of the house burning, the occurence was the norm... there was no special circumstances. The house caught fire, he was not one of the participants in the program so there was no need to suddenly make a decision to do or not do anything. There was no other situation that arose that a reasonable person would not expect to happen if the fee wasn't paid and the house caught fire...


Anyway, the thing is, as in many topics on this board, we aren't going to agree on everything and my position or opinion is just that, my opinion. I can certainly see why people would be upset about this or not agree with the Fire Department as it is an emotional issue. I earlier responded to an inane comment by one of you with an inane response about swatting gnats. That was silly. This isn't personal, it's an issue we disagree on and I don't mind opposing views. So for responding like a 14yr old I apologize.

  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #206 on: October 08, 2010, 08:02:30 AM »
I was not intending my comment to you, it was a general comment about life being dictated by hyper techincal rules to where we are expected to operate like robots without discretion to make decisions taking into account reality of life sometimes. 

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #207 on: October 08, 2010, 08:03:17 AM »

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #208 on: October 08, 2010, 08:10:26 AM »
I was not intending my comment to you, it was a general comment about life being dictated by hyper techincal rules to where we are expected to operate like robots without discretion to make decisions taking into account reality of life sometimes. 

Oh I know, I was just qouting you on the life being dictated thingy..

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #209 on: October 08, 2010, 08:13:29 AM »

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #210 on: October 08, 2010, 08:14:12 AM »
Oh I know, I was just qouting you on the life being dictated thingy..

This issue seems to me very much akin to ZERO tolerance policies in schools, mandatory mins in Fed Courts, etc etc. 

I don't like any of that stuff. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #211 on: October 08, 2010, 08:20:28 AM »


i agree with a lot of his points, but not his turning it into politics because he is assuming that in a lib area they would not have done the same thing. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2010, 08:20:34 AM »
Seems pretty clear cut though.. prior to the fire everyone has an opportunity to either pay or not pay the $75 annual fee. If you don't then I don't see how you can expect to be the exception to the rule..

I don't know if this will avoid any future incidents but I think there should be a prior, clear understanding that if you don't pay the fee and call for assistance, you will billed for the actual costs involved in responding and putting out the fire. But legally in this case, and you being a lawyer might know, I don't know how the fire department could recoupe their costs as after the fact he could claim he agreed to pay the cost under duress or coercion  as his house was burning...who could argue against that?

  

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2010, 08:46:28 AM »
I agree on a philisophical level,  however, real life is much different.  Sure there is no techincal legal obligation to do certain things, but just because something is legal or obligated or not does not make it the right thing to do. 

Olbermann agrees with you.
Beck does not.

:)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2010, 08:49:07 AM »
Olbermann agrees with you.
Beck does not.

:)

I don't base my opinions off of what tv personalities tell me.    I know many issues i seem cold as ice, but not all. 

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2010, 08:54:09 AM »
I don't base my opinions off of what tv personalities tell me.    I know many issues i seem cold as ice, but not all. 

I think this is simple.

What if 3 firefighters had died in the fire?
And, at the same time, another house (of a person WITH insurance) had burned down 5 miles away cause this team was already engaged trying to save 4 pets?

I love my pets, but if I'm stupid enough to spend my fireCare $ on other things, it's my own damn fault. 

He made a choice.  He probably spent $75 that year on lottery tickets - had he won 10 million, it would have been a wise investment.  But it didn't work out that way.  If a hurricane wipes out my south florida home, and I don't have hurricane and flood insurance, it's my own damn fault.  Olbermann doesn't hold pity parties for me.  I chose to buy FLEX Mag instead of Hurricane insurance - I was a dumbass. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2010, 08:55:27 AM »
I think this is simple.

What if 3 firefighters had died in the fire?
And, at the same time, another house (of a person WITH insurance) had burned down 5 miles away cause this team was already engaged trying to save 4 pets?

I love my pets, but if I'm stupid enough to spend my fireCare $ on other things, it's my own damn fault. 

He made a choice.  He probably spent $75 that year on lottery tickets - had he won 10 million, it would have been a wise investment.  But it didn't work out that way.  If a hurricane wipes out my south florida home, and I don't have hurricane and flood insurance, it's my own damn fault.  Olbermann doesn't hold pity parties for me.  I chose to buy FLEX Mag instead of Hurricane insurance - I was a dumbass. 

 ;D

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2010, 08:58:32 AM »
Olbermann agrees with you.
Beck does not.

:)

Somewhere in the Bronx an esqs head just exploded

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2010, 08:59:55 AM »
Somewhere in the Bronx an esqs head just exploded


Corner of Webster Ave. & 233rd    ;D  ;D

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2010, 09:04:48 AM »

Corner of Webster Ave. & 233rd    ;D  ;D

I bet you're de-friending Glenn Beck from facebook right now lol...

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #220 on: October 08, 2010, 09:07:33 AM »
Lmao..im puerto rican and never been to the bronx...wild huh

washington heights is where i stay wen i go to NY

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #221 on: October 08, 2010, 09:07:40 AM »
I bet you're de-friending Glenn Beck from facebook right now lol...

No, i dont have to agree with anyone on 10/10 things to still like them.  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #222 on: October 08, 2010, 09:11:22 AM »
Lmao..im puerto rican and never been to the bronx...wild huh

washington heights is where i stay wen i go to NY

Yeah, its hard mostly.  There are pockets of good areas like in Riverdale and Country Club on the water, but is mostly people barely scraping by in a concrete jungle. 

The crazy thing is that 10 minutes north is Bronxville, Edgemont Scarsdale, people are insanely wealthy.  In between in Yonkers (The "Y.O.") which is like the wild west in a lot of parts,  DMX, the Lox, Mary J etc etc.     

MM2K

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #223 on: October 08, 2010, 04:34:35 PM »


TA, I think you should send money to help.
Jan. Jobs: 36,000!!

tonymctones

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #224 on: October 08, 2010, 05:18:32 PM »
Yes they should have put it out and charged him the full amount, but I agree with agnostic you cant have ppl who are not in the position to make decisions about financial matters doing so on the spot.

They should have had a plan in place and im sure they probably do as of now...

none of this negates the fact however that this moron was at fault more so than anybody else. If he had simply paid the money instead of assuming they would come and put the fire out even if he didnt there would never have been an issue.

LMAO at TA bringing the arrogance, Id love to meet you one day and remind you what your place is in this world TA...I dont know who or when somebody started letting a 6 foot 150lb twink think he was a billy bad ass but id love to be the one to remind you where you belong...