Author Topic: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?  (Read 17180 times)

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #175 on: October 08, 2010, 07:07:21 AM »
TA, isn't one of your big things how certain entities are "socialist" in nature, ie: police depts, fire depts, military....and what "entitles" people to these things are there being a tax paying citizen?  The moral side of the equation can't be used, as it would just depend on the individuals ethics.  For example, what if a cop is called to an altercation between 2 drug dealers where they are firing shots at each other.....is he morally obligated to try to stop it?  What if he doesn't know they are drug dealers and just look like a couple of teens? 

You can't run these types of organizations based on moral relativism.....sorry.

I'll kick it up a notch.....I think the dipshits who wander off into the woods and get "lost" should have to pay every cent back that it takes to rescue them.  Absolutely idiotic that taxpayers foot the bill for these people. Or perhaps they should purchase some type of insurance that covers it.


A cop WILL stop an argument between two drug dealers or whomever since it clearly constitutes  a danger to the public being that weapons are involved.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #176 on: October 08, 2010, 07:08:17 AM »
A cop WILL stop an argument between two drug dealers or whomever since it clearly constitutes  a danger to the public being that weapons are involved.


TA - notice no one is addressing my paramedic analogy? 

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #177 on: October 08, 2010, 07:09:37 AM »
I am not saying no, but to me the end result of letting this house burn like that is so draconian compared to the offense as to seem out of porportion.  

Most things can be dealt with after the fact than simply allow things to burn down like this.   Lets say the total cost was $10,000.  

If the guy did not pay up as he said he could, they could put a lien on the house, garnish his wages, siezxe the property, etc.  


Now that the house is burned down, the guy will be paying no real estate taxes, probably have to move to a shelter and go on welfare or something, all over a $75 fee is stupidly did not pay.  

I agree the guy was a total jerk, but to me the offense should not warrant a result like this considering the guy offered to pay the actual amount.    

I hear what you are saying, but I just think it we start asking public servants to make these type of decisions on the spot, we are headed for serious problems.

does anybody know if this is the first time the situration happened in that area?

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #178 on: October 08, 2010, 07:11:59 AM »
It does seem harsh. I live in an area with several lakes. Some people living close to the water buy flood insurance. Some don't. Some figure hell, I live in a 100 yr flood plan, what are the odds we will have a flood? We just had one 10 yrs ago so I don't think I will pay the premiums. Of course it floods.. his house and all his belongings are ruined.. should my taxes go for rebuilding his house?

Does the guy have ANY home owners insurance? If so it will replace his house.. his photo albums and porn collection.. consider it lesson learned, cost of playing the odds and losing. Sound heartless? There were only 2 options.. pay $75 and have fire department services or don't pay and have no services.. There was no third option of 'pay additional fees if in fact your house does catch fire and you need us". It's like waiting for an accident to buy insurance..just doesnt work that way  

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #179 on: October 08, 2010, 07:12:12 AM »
I hear what you are saying, but I just think it we start asking public servants to make these type of decisions on the spot, we are headed for serious problems.

does anybody know if this is the first time the situration happened in that area?

Public Servants have to make these kind of decisions all the time, especially the military.

Also, this was not the first time it happened in that county.  Olbermann interviewed Cranick, whose house burned down, and Cranick stated that its happened a few other times where they just let the property burn to ashes.  One particular instance was a barn full of horses, the horses of course were inside and they did nothing.

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #180 on: October 08, 2010, 07:14:28 AM »
Guys lets say this occured:


Instead of fire, the town had a $75 fee for paramedic services.   911 got a call that a man was having a heart attack in the street.  The emt shows up, calls the town tax clerk, and realizes the man never paid the fee of $75. 

Would it be ok to let the man die in the street over $75? 

 

In this case, you treat the guy and bill him the entire amount. There is a difference between life and property. The paramedics weren't putting themselves in harms way by treating him. Putting out a fire can be  and usually is a dangerous undertaking with risks involved.

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #181 on: October 08, 2010, 07:16:02 AM »

http://animals.change.org/blog/view/tennessee_firefighters_stand_and_watch_while_animals_burn
Tennessee Firefighters Stand and Watch While Animals Burn
by Martin Matheny October 07, 2010 09:15 AM (PT) Topics: Cats, Dogs

Chances are, you've seen this story by now. A homeowner in Tennessee stands by helplessly as his house burns to the ground. The local fire department won't help, because the homeowner forgot to pay a yearly fire protection fee.

And there, among the rubble and the charred remnants of a family's life, were the remains of Gene Cranick's pets. His human family made it out safely; his cat and three dogs did not.

The firefighters, by the way, were on the scene and equipped to stop the loss of life. You see, Cranick's neighbor had paid his fire services fee, so the local fire department was on hand to make sure the fire didn't spread. But, according to news reports, not a drop of water was put onto Cranick's home.

Four animals were burned alive. All of the Cranick family's possessions were lost. All over a measly $75 — the cost of this fire protection fee levied on Cranick and his neighbors.

It's not the first time, either. In an interview with MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, Cranick said that similar incidents had happened before, including one case where a barn containing live horses was left to burn.

The mayor of South Fulton, TN, whose fire department is at the center of this avoidable tragedy, is less than sympathetic. Mayor David Crocker told the media, "It's a service we offer. Either they accept it or they don't." Cranick tried to accept it. In his multiple 911 calls to save his home and his animals, he offered to pay the fee then and there, more if necessary. He was turned down.

Sure, because Crocker's got a government to run. Who's got time for common decency when you're the mayor of a bustling, powerhouse city like South Fulton? (Population 2,391 and shrinking.)

Giving Crocker the benefit of a doubt, let's presume that South Fulton's fire department has a policy of fighting a fire if human lives are at risk, even if the fee hasn't been paid. Let's assume that Crocker and the other parts of his government that enforce this wrongheaded and misguided policy have at least a shred of common decency. Even then, his actions send an unfortunate and all-too-common message: Animals are property, like your kitchen table, or your tennis racket, or your PlayStation.

The problem is, you probably don't grieve when you lose your PlayStation. You do when you lose a pet, and that's why the county needs to step up and make sure that every life is protected in a fire. There are a lot of ways it can do that.

While providing  a public safety service like fire protection is a costly part of government, it is a part of government's duties. You can't run fire protection on a subscription basis, and South Fulton is hardly the only town in the U.S. that faces the prospect of providing crucial public safety services for its unincorporated neighbors. Other places don't leave innocent lives in the rubble because someone forgot to pay $75.

There's nothing we can do to bring back the Cranick family's pets. They're gone now, and we can only pray that they didn't suffer. We can prevent it from happening again by calling on Obion County to change their policy and keep pets safe as well.

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #182 on: October 08, 2010, 07:16:09 AM »
Public Servants have to make these kind of decisions all the time, especially the military.

Also, this was not the first time it happened in that county.  Olbermann interviewed Cranick, whose house burned down, and Cranick stated that its happened a few other times where they just let the property burn to ashes.  One particular instance was a barn full of horses, the horses of course were inside and they did nothing.

then the outcome is clear.. the guy had ample information to decide whether to participate in the program or not. He chose not to participate. End of story

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #183 on: October 08, 2010, 07:19:59 AM »
then the outcome is clear.. the guy had ample information to decide whether to participate in the program or not. He chose not to participate. End of story
You will be first in line I bet to fork over money for forced Health Insurance as well I bet.  People like you make me fucking sick.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #184 on: October 08, 2010, 07:20:53 AM »
then the outcome is clear.. the guy had ample information to decide whether to participate in the program or not. He chose not to participate. End of story


It just seems out of porportion to me, even though the guy was complete idiot in not paying.  

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #185 on: October 08, 2010, 07:22:31 AM »
http://animals.change.org/blog/view/tennessee_firefighters_stand_and_watch_while_animals_burn
Tennessee Firefighters Stand and Watch While Animals Burn
by Martin Matheny October 07, 2010 09:15 AM (PT) Topics: Cats, Dogs

Chances are, you've seen this story by now. A homeowner in Tennessee stands by helplessly as his house burns to the ground. The local fire department won't help, because the homeowner forgot to pay a yearly fire protection fee.

And there, among the rubble and the charred remnants of a family's life, were the remains of Gene Cranick's pets. His human family made it out safely; his cat and three dogs did not.

The firefighters, by the way, were on the scene and equipped to stop the loss of life. You see, Cranick's neighbor had paid his fire services fee, so the local fire department was on hand to make sure the fire didn't spread. But, according to news reports, not a drop of water was put onto Cranick's home.

Four animals were burned alive. All of the Cranick family's possessions were lost. All over a measly $75 — the cost of this fire protection fee levied on Cranick and his neighbors.

It's not the first time, either. In an interview with MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, Cranick said that similar incidents had happened before, including one case where a barn containing live horses was left to burn.

The mayor of South Fulton, TN, whose fire department is at the center of this avoidable tragedy, is less than sympathetic. Mayor David Crocker told the media, "It's a service we offer. Either they accept it or they don't." Cranick tried to accept it. In his multiple 911 calls to save his home and his animals, he offered to pay the fee then and there, more if necessary. He was turned down.

Sure, because Crocker's got a government to run. Who's got time for common decency when you're the mayor of a bustling, powerhouse city like South Fulton? (Population 2,391 and shrinking.)

Giving Crocker the benefit of a doubt, let's presume that South Fulton's fire department has a policy of fighting a fire if human lives are at risk, even if the fee hasn't been paid. Let's assume that Crocker and the other parts of his government that enforce this wrongheaded and misguided policy have at least a shred of common decency. Even then, his actions send an unfortunate and all-too-common message: Animals are property, like your kitchen table, or your tennis racket, or your PlayStation.

The problem is, you probably don't grieve when you lose your PlayStation. You do when you lose a pet, and that's why the county needs to step up and make sure that every life is protected in a fire. There are a lot of ways it can do that.

While providing  a public safety service like fire protection is a costly part of government, it is a part of government's duties. You can't run fire protection on a subscription basis, and South Fulton is hardly the only town in the U.S. that faces the prospect of providing crucial public safety services for its unincorporated neighbors. Other places don't leave innocent lives in the rubble because someone forgot to pay $75.

There's nothing we can do to bring back the Cranick family's pets. They're gone now, and we can only pray that they didn't suffer. We can prevent it from happening again by calling on Obion County to change their policy and keep pets safe as well.

The article was either OP/Ed or a letter to the editor.

Did he FORGET to pay the fee or did he choose not to. I haven't seen anything confirming he forgot. If the pets were so precious, why didn't the family members think about them before they left the house? And personally, I'm not running into a burning house for a cat.. but that's just me


I could write an article saying "Just how did this fire start? Who will gain from the insurance and why wouldn't someone pay $75 for protection from a fire unless he was planning on burning it for the insurance money..."

The only bad guy in this story is Cranick

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #186 on: October 08, 2010, 07:22:54 AM »
Public Servants have to make these kind of decisions all the time, especially the military.

Also, this was not the first time it happened in that county.  Olbermann interviewed Cranick, whose house burned down, and Cranick stated that its happened a few other times where they just let the property burn to ashes.  One particular instance was a barn full of horses, the horses of course were inside and they did nothing.

I served in the military, and it doesn't occur nearly as much as hollywood portrays.  And even then there are very clear guidelines to follow, which is exactly what the firefighters did on this occasion.

Then the guy should have known the outcome of not paying if it happened before.  I hate it for the animals, but sadly they paid the price for having a shitty owner.

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #187 on: October 08, 2010, 07:24:26 AM »
You will be first in line I bet to fork over money for forced Health Insurance as well I bet.  People like you make me fucking sick.

People like you who make assumptions about people like me... are little more than gnats I swat away with little effort..

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #188 on: October 08, 2010, 07:25:10 AM »
The article was either OP/Ed or a letter to the editor.

Did he FORGET to pay the fee or did he choose not to. I haven't seen anything confirming he forgot. If the pets were so precious, why didn't the family members think about them before they left the house? And personally, I'm not running into a burning house for a cat.. but that's just me


I could write an article saying "Just how did this fire start? Who will gain from the insurance and why wouldn't someone pay $75 for protection from a fire unless he was planning on burning it for the insurance money..."

The only bad guy in this story is Cranick
I bet you can`t wait to brag to others about "knowing the consequences" of not paying for Forced Health Insurance.


The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #189 on: October 08, 2010, 07:27:12 AM »
People like you who make assumptions about people like me... are little more than gnats I swat away with little effort..
Make a rule and you will follow.  Fucking sheep.

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #190 on: October 08, 2010, 07:27:31 AM »
I bet you can`t wait to brag to others about "knowing the consequences" of not paying for Forced Health Insurance.



It doesn't apply to me, I have a job with good health benefits.. But if they said I needed to pay $75 annually for ambulance service if I lived outside their tax jurisdiction, I would weigh the pros and cons and respond accordingly, and live or die with my decision

Agnostic007

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #191 on: October 08, 2010, 07:28:24 AM »
Make a rule and you will follow.  Fucking sheep.

So in your world, how does it work?

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #192 on: October 08, 2010, 07:30:29 AM »
It doesn't apply to me, I have a job with good health benefits.. But if they said I needed to pay $75 annually for ambulance service if I lived outside their tax jurisdiction, I would weigh the pros and cons and respond accordingly, and live or die with my decision
Of course you don`t care because it doesn`t affect you. (though you should bloody well care)  You would probably watch the country burn down just as long as you have your ham sammich, television, and crappy job to go to.  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #193 on: October 08, 2010, 07:30:47 AM »
It doesn't apply to me, I have a job with good health benefits.. But if they said I needed to pay $75 annually for ambulance service if I lived outside their tax jurisdiction, I would weigh the pros and cons and respond accordingly, and live or die with my decision

I agree on a philisophical level,  however, real life is much different.  Sure there is no techincal legal obligation to do certain things, but just because something is legal or obligated or not does not make it the right thing to do.  

We are people, not robots.   If you are dying in the street and your next door Doctor neighbor just looks at you and keeps drinking his glass of wine while you beg for your life, is that right?  Of course not!

  

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #194 on: October 08, 2010, 07:31:06 AM »
So in your world, how does it work?
How does what work?

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #195 on: October 08, 2010, 07:34:46 AM »
I agree on a philisophical level,  however, real life is much different.  Sure there is no techincal legal obligation to do certain things, but just because something is legal or obligated or not does not make it the right thing to do.  

We are people, not robots.   If you are dying in the street and your next door Doctor neighbor just looks at you and keeps drinking his glass of wine while you beg for your life, is that right?  Of course not!

  
Very good post.

Kind of reminds me of what RFK once said:




"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.


"Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."

The Showstoppa

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #196 on: October 08, 2010, 07:36:50 AM »
Very good post.

Kind of reminds me of what RFK once said:


"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.


"Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."


Oh dear, should a Kennedy really say such things?  ;D

The True Adonis

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #197 on: October 08, 2010, 07:38:47 AM »
Oh dear, should a Kennedy really say such things?  ;D
Probably not.  :D  But the words and meaning are great!

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #198 on: October 08, 2010, 07:38:54 AM »
As an attorney, what galls me the most sometimes is people clinging to hyper techincal details on certain things when everyone knows what the right thing to do is.  

This is especially true in many probate, family law, and divorce cases where siblings, spouses, children get screwed royally due to arcane rules that dont really reflect the reality of way things are.  

Maybe I am just looking at my own lfe and seeing the times where I screwed up, and thankfully, someone bailed me out when they really did not have to but did it out of a sense of something else.  

Did they have a legal obligation to save the home?  No.   Did the guy royally screw up ?  Yes.  Did the guy probably know the result of what would happen?  Yes.  

that being said, I really dont see the big deal of slapping the guy hard with a fine, judgement, lien, whatsever, but saving the house if he was willing to pay for it.          


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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #199 on: October 08, 2010, 07:42:01 AM »
Probably not.  :D  But the words and meaning are great!

It is a very eloquent analysis of a sense of duty to one another.  And I agree that much of that has been lost. 

This whole thing reminds me of the final Seinfeld episode, if anybody remembers that.... ;D