Author Topic: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?  (Read 17306 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2010, 01:46:28 PM »
For those who think the fire fighters should have saved his house I have one narrow question: would you risk your life fighting a fire for someone who did not pay the fire protection fee?  ???

Like I posed the question before, its not so simple as that.  What if the guy actually paid but that the payment was lost or not applied correctly? 

I'm sorry - throwing the fire hoses on the house to stop the fire was not such a monumental thing here that they could not have helped him out. 

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2010, 01:53:12 PM »
Yes.  Absolutely.  Save the house.  Bill the owner for the cost. 

I am not trying to be confrontational, but I do not believe you.  It is easy to say “yes” when you are sitting comfortably in front of your monitor, but I do not believe any rational person, a person with a family to support for example, would risk his life for someone who declined to pay the fire protection fee.  Fire fighters go through extensive, grueling training… they have felt the heat of real flames… burns… and lost colleagues in fires.

The option of “billing him after the fact” is not much motivation go to into a fire knowing that you might not come out of it alive.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2010, 01:54:48 PM »
Yes.  Absolutely.  Save the house.  Bill the owner for the cost. 

But you have Jesus behind you; most firefighters don't.
I hate the State.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2010, 02:01:22 PM »


The option of “billing him after the fact” is not much motivation go to into a fire knowing that you might not come out of it alive.


Shouldnt even enter a firefighters head...Firefighters shouldnt be thinkin about "hmm i wonder if he paid his $75 fee.." no they put out fire...see a fire..put the shit out...do the bullshit paper work later

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2010, 02:04:23 PM »
I am not trying to be confrontational, but I do not believe you.  It is easy to say “yes” when you are sitting comfortably in front of your monitor, but I do not believe any rational person, a person with a family to support for example, would risk his life for someone who declined to pay the fire protection fee.  Fire fighters go through extensive, grueling training… they have felt the heat of real flames… burns… and lost colleagues in fires.

The option of “billing him after the fact” is not much motivation go to into a fire knowing that you might not come out of it alive.


Well, that's your opinion.  I stand by mine.  I think people like police officers and fire fighters do their jobs in large part because they are public servants.  I think this situation is out of the ordinary.  It is absurd to think that fire fighters maintain some kind of list, receive an emergency call, check their list to ensure the person paid, and only respond to the emergency if the bill is current.  Makes absolutely no sense.

Billing after the fact isn't the motivation to put out the fire.  They should put out the fire because it's the right thing to do.  Billing the person is necessary to ensure everyone doesn't stop paying the fee.  The owner would pay a lot more than $75 for their services.    


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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2010, 02:04:44 PM »
But you have Jesus behind you; most firefighters don't.

 ::)

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2010, 02:05:18 PM »
Shouldnt even enter a firefighters head...Firefighters shouldnt be thinkin about "hmm i wonder if he paid his $75 fee.." no they put out fire...see a fire..put the shit out...do the bullshit paper work later


Yeah.  This.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2010, 02:05:28 PM »
Shouldnt even enter a firefighters head...Firefighters shouldnt be thinkin about "hmm i wonder if he paid his $75 fee.." no they put out fire...see a fire..put the shit out...do the bullshit paper work later


No,they didnt even go out to the guys house because the guy was blacklisted.They went out to the neighbors house when his house was going to burn.Easy way to avoid this,pay the freaking money.So,your saying the guy next door should pay,but its ok this guy doesnt,why would anyone pay then?.If everyone didnt pay,the service is over.They got the service because everyone agreed to pay.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2010, 02:09:05 PM »
PAY THE FREAKING MONEY STUPID F'N FREELOADER!!!!The

Woah...A word from the religious right

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2010, 02:09:42 PM »
Wasn't the deal that the only reason they responded was when the fire threatened to spread to the neighbors?  If so, they probably just received a call and when the dispatch checked the address and saw he had not paid the $75 fee they didn't respond.  Only once the guy who had coverage next door called did they go out and respond.  Is that correct?

I think the bigger issue would need more questions, for example have people commonly not paid the fee but expected the fire put out anyway?  Thereby putting a huge strain on the fire dept to even function.  Also, even IF they attempted to put the fire out, that doesn't guarantee it would have saved the house, pets, etc...  many fires are just barely contained at best and especially in rural communites where it takes a long time to respond. 

but as always, I'm sure this will get massive natl airplay instead of things that actually affect all  of us like, economy, etc...

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2010, 02:10:39 PM »
Woah...A word from the religious right

Ummm,Im not religious,dont know where you got that from.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2010, 02:17:02 PM »
Here is some more follow up information on the whole fire department watching this man's house burn down. I can guarantee you this county will be SUED TO NO END. Now it is revealed the guy has paid the fee for years and this year he somehow overlooked it and because of this his house was allowed to burn. I would like to know how much money raised every year in these fees? Who is getting these fees? Where do these fees go? Did the 911 operator take the time to look up whether or not a person has paid the fee before sending out a truck and do these firemen not take into consideration that these people are THEIR NEIGHBORS whom they have known for years?

Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate
By Brett Michael Dykes



Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn.

Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

VIDEO http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22289135

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism. (See their arguments here, here, here, here and here.)

Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's  laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."

"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."

Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.

"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."
C

bears

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2010, 02:17:41 PM »
Like I posed the question before, its not so simple as that.  What if the guy actually paid but that the payment was lost or not applied correctly? 

I'm sorry - throwing the fire hoses on the house to stop the fire was not such a monumental thing here that they could not have helped him out. 

i was totaly going to say that.  the county is setting themselves up for a ridiculously large lawsuit if they keep this up.  i don't necessarily agree that people who don't pay deserve help but sooner or later they are going to ignore someone who actually did pay.  and then they're fucked.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2010, 02:23:34 PM »
Here is some more follow up information on the whole fire department watching this man's house burn down. I can guarantee you this county will be SUED TO NO END. Now it is revealed the guy has paid the fee for years and this year he somehow overlooked it and because of this his house was allowed to burn. I would like to know how much money raised every year in these fees? Who is getting these fees? Where do these fees go? Did the 911 operator take the time to look up whether or not a person has paid the fee before sending out a truck and do these firemen not take into consideration that these people are THEIR NEIGHBORS whom they have known for years?

Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate
By Brett Michael Dykes



Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn.

Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for fire protection services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the Fire Department's defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

VIDEO http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22289135

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism. (See their arguments here, here, here, here and here.)

Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's  laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."

"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."

Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.

"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."

Here is the problem.If you "overlook" paying your health insurance,car insurance,life insurance,your dropped immeadiately!!!If your a day late on car insurance and get into an accident your screwed.Sorry,there is no such thing as overlooking bills and getting away with it. If you overlook paying your life insurance after paying it for 50 years and if your a day late and die that day,think they will pay off?This is reality!!This guy will go to court and lose ESPECIALLY if those who paid are on the jury.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2010, 02:24:57 PM »
And now the tax assessor will have to declare this property a total lose and vacant of building and lose thousands in assessable value, all over $75. 

This was penny wise and dollar foolish. 

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #140 on: October 06, 2010, 02:28:37 PM »
Here is the problem.If you "overlook" paying your health insurance,car insurance,life insurance,your dropped immeadiately!!!If your a day late on car insurance and get into an accident your screwed.Sorry,there is no such thing as overlooking bills and getting away with it. If you overlook paying your life insurance after paying it for 50 years and if your a day late and die that day,think they will pay off?This is reality!!This guy will go to court and lose ESPECIALLY if those who paid are on the jury.

Could we be in any more agreement?  I think this is a lovefest!  Big hugz!  :-*

Where is that non-bill paying Methyl Mike?   ::)

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #141 on: October 06, 2010, 02:31:59 PM »
Here is the problem.If you "overlook" paying your health insurance,car insurance,life insurance,your dropped immeadiately!!!If your a day late on car insurance and get into an accident your screwed.Sorry,there is no such thing as overlooking bills and getting away with it. If you overlook paying your life insurance after paying it for 50 years and if your a day late and die that day,think they will pay off?This is reality!!This guy will go to court and lose ESPECIALLY if those who paid are on the jury.

good point.   i think this is one of those issues where no one is wrong and everyone is wrong.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #142 on: October 06, 2010, 02:33:15 PM »
I don't think the insurance example works.  If you stop paying your insurance and show up at the ER with an emergency condition, the hospital must treat you.  They can bill you and try and collect later, but anti-patient dumping laws require them to treat anyone who shows up at the ER with an emergency condition, regardless of insurance and/or an ability to pay.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #143 on: October 06, 2010, 02:35:20 PM »
I don't think the insurance example works.  If you stop paying your insurance and show up at the ER with an emergency condition, the hospital must treat you.  They can bill you and try and collect later, but anti-patient dumping laws require them to treat anyone who shows up at the ER with an emergency condition, regardless of insurance and/or an ability to pay.

true.  but thats why we have a health insurance crisis right?

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think
« Reply #145 on: October 06, 2010, 02:41:07 PM »
good point.   i think this is one of those issues where no one is wrong and everyone is wrong.

Wrong.  The guy who failed to pay the bill... is wrong.  >:(

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #146 on: October 06, 2010, 02:41:47 PM »
true.  but thats why we have a health insurance crisis right?

Not that I'm aware of.  I've never seen or heard that uninsured ER visits have caused a health insurance crisis.  

Not sure I completely understand your question?

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #147 on: October 06, 2010, 02:44:37 PM »
Not that I'm aware of.  I've never seen or heard that uninsured ER visits have caused a health insurance crisis.  

Not sure I completely understand your question?

it's my understanding that a big part of the problem is that hospitals collect pennies on the dollar of the amounts that they bill.  if someone is uninsured they just don't pay.

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #148 on: October 06, 2010, 02:56:24 PM »
it's my understanding that a big part of the problem is that hospitals collect pennies on the dollar of the amounts that they bill.  if someone is uninsured they just don't pay.

True, they probably won't pay, but I think that's a different situation.  If a person is just trying to get a routine appointment, preventive care, etc., the hospital won't treat them without insurance.  That doesn't mean the person cannot get medical treatment someplace else, but I don't think that's related to ER visits. 

Sounds like you're talking about insurance companies not reimbursing hospitals/doctors like they should. 

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Re: Firefighters watch as home burns to the ground. What do you guys think?
« Reply #149 on: October 06, 2010, 02:57:56 PM »
And now the tax assessor will have to declare this property a total lose and vacant of building and lose thousands in assessable value, all over $75.  

This was penny wise and dollar foolish.  

I dunno... the story has made national news.  You can bet your ass, if any getbigger is suddenly asked for $75 for FireCare, we'll probably use our McGriddle $ on fire insurance, and pay it early too.

I'd be interested in how many notices he got in the mail.  He "forgot"... I bet there were 3 or 5 notices.