Author Topic: High court struggles with funeral protest case  (Read 2713 times)

Hugo Chavez

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 11:28:44 AM »
The bad thing about this is someone will die eventually.You get a father who lost his son in the war and he hears protests at the funeral,its only a matter of time before people die.
why would that be a bad thing?  I'm shocked a few of these guys havn't been pecked off from a distance already.  It's not like they would have a short suspect list to go from lol...

Agnostic007

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »
The Westboro christians assert that due to homosexuality which they consider a sin that justifies death, "god" is punishing the US by killing US soldiers. Essentially they rejoice in the death of Americans because of their religion and their god. Not much different than muslims who cheer when an American dies.

Civilian casualties, on any side, are always horrendous and inexcusable but this case doesn't have to do with civilian casualties, as the Westboro christians care not for civilian casualties but only for homosexuality as a sin and they rejoice in American deaths. Demanding accountability for civilian deaths and atrocities is one thing, applauding the death of US citizens (like the Westboro christians do) is despicable and traitorous. Now, whether "god" would be happy with civilian casualties, probably, given the amount of atrocities committed in the name of religion.

Good post

Soul Crusher

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 11:32:19 AM »
why would that be a bad thing?  I'm shocked a few of these guys havn't been pecked off from a distance already.  It's not like they would have a short suspect list to go from lol...

A cop buddy of mind said that if someone came from out of state and was 200 yards away and took a dude out and was remotely competent at covering tracks, he would get away with it if they took this dude out like that. 

Kazan

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2010, 11:33:07 AM »
your denying that innocent people, children (thousand of them, hundreds of thousands? have been killed and were (american citizens) have their blood on our hands for allowing this immoral unjust war to have taken place

First of all you can stop with the fucking immoral, unjust propaganda bullshit. And exactly how do you know this information on civilian casualties? Were you there? How do you know it wasn't some Al Queda asshole blowing up a market? If you really want I can go back and find the senate bill that authorized regime change in Iraq, I believe it was passed under Clinton. Like I said check Yons website, if you chose not to then don't post a bunch of unsubstantiated information.
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Skeletor

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2010, 11:36:33 AM »
I assume everyone has heard about the Patriot Guard Riders? Probably the best form of action against the Westboro christian scum.
They attend funerals of fallen US soldiers and try to shield the memorial from Westboro defacement.

Soul Crusher

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2010, 11:37:53 AM »
I assume everyone has heard about the Patriot Guard Riders? Probably the best form of action against the Westboro christian scum.
They attend funerals of fallen US soldiers and try to memorial memorial from Westboro defacement.

I really wish a retired sniper would take one of these people out from about 500 yards out and no one ever could ever figure out who did it. 

Agnostic007

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2010, 11:39:28 AM »
I really wish a retired sniper would take one of these people out from about 500 yards out and no one ever could ever figure out who did it. 

I'm thinking all it would take is one or two... the others would suddenly realize 1. They aren't in that big of a hurry to meet their maker and 2. Maybe homosexuality isn't all that big a deal..

Agnostic007

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2010, 11:54:02 AM »
A cop buddy of mind said that if someone came from out of state and was 200 yards away and took a dude out and was remotely competent at covering tracks, he would get away with it if they took this dude out like that. 

If he rented a car, paid cash for his hotel, food, gas, had a weapon that wasn't traceable to him (Stolen and changed hands several times) recovered the brass, wore booties over his shoes, gloves, didn't smoke or drink anything while laying in wait, got to and from the site unseen, disposed of the rifle unseen and NEVER spoke a word to anyone about it, and NO ONE had any prior knowledge of his intent... he or she would be difficult to catch.. 

Dos Equis

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2010, 12:49:52 PM »
First of all you can stop with the fucking immoral, unjust propaganda bullshit. And exactly how do you know this information on civilian casualties? Were you there? How do you know it wasn't some Al Queda asshole blowing up a market? If you really want I can go back and find the senate bill that authorized regime change in Iraq, I believe it was passed under Clinton. Like I said check Yons website, if you chose not to then don't post a bunch of unsubstantiated information.

Thank you.

Dos Equis

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2010, 10:24:35 PM »
Good summary.  I like Ginsburg's question:  Justice Ginsburg neatly summed up the issue in its most basic terms: "This is a case about exploiting a private family's grief, and the question is: Why should the First Amendment tolerate exploiting this Marine's family when you have so many other forums for getting across your message?"

High Court Struggles With Military Funerals Case
by NINA TOTENBERG
October 6, 2010

At an emotional argument before the U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday, the justices struggled with a case testing whether picketers at a military funeral may be sued for inflicting emotional distress on the family of a dead soldier.

The case, Snyder v. Phelps, pits the father of a Marine killed in Iraq against seven religious picketers who demonstrated at the soldier's funeral with signs that read "God hates fags" and "You're going to hell." Though the Marine wasn't gay, the picketers say they were carrying God's message to condemn "sodomite enablers."

The picketers, all members of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., traveled with their pastor, Fred Phelps, to Maryland to demonstrate at the funeral of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who died in Iraq. They have picketed at hundreds of other military funerals in recent years, preaching their message that the casualties of war are God's punishment for society tolerating, and even embracing, homosexuality.

Context

Cpl. Snyder's father, Albert Snyder, sued the picketers for intentional infliction of emotional distress and won a $5 million judgment, but a federal appeals court threw out the award, declaring that even outrageous and offensive opinion is protected by the First Amendment right of free speech.

Inside the courtroom, Snyder's lawyer, Sean Summers, told the justices that "if context ever matters, it matters at a funeral." But some justices pointed out that the picketers had obeyed all police instructions and stood 1,000 feet away from the church. Moreover, they noted that part of Snyder's emotional distress claim involves a derogatory Internet posting that he came across a month after the funeral.

"Suppose there had been no funeral protest, just the Internet posting," asked Justice Antonin Scalia. "Would you still have had a claim for damages?"

Summers answered yes, because of the "personal, targeted epithets directed at the Snyder family."

Moreover, he contended that just because the picketers were in compliance with the criminal law does not mean they are immune to lawsuits for civil damages.

Drawing The Line

A Marine's father sued picketers who held objectionable signs at services for his son, other troops.
Justice Stephen Breyer noted that Snyder had not seen the picketers' signs at the funeral, that he only saw the signs when he viewed TV coverage afterward. So, the justice asked, where do we draw the line on when you can sue for damages, and when you can't? It was a refrain heard repeatedly throughout the argument.

Summers repeatedly contended that the private, targeted nature of the speech is what makes it unprotected by the First Amendment.

But Chief Justice John Roberts wondered obliquely whether it was the content of the speech that was objectionable. "So you have no objection to a sign that said get out of Iraq?" Summers replied that he indeed would have no objection to such signs carried by picketers at a funeral.

Justice Scalia pounced on that answer, observing, "So the intrusion upon the privacy of the funeral isn't really what you are complaining about."

Justice Sonia Sotomayor moved back to the line-drawing dilemma asking: If you were a Marine and I went up to you, objecting to the Iraq war, and I said that "you are perpetuating the horrors" of that war, would the Marine have grounds to sue?

Summers first said yes, then no.

Free Speech

Justice Elena Kagan noted that the court has long been protective of even outrageous opinions because to impose damages based on a jury's tastes, likes or dislikes is to undermine the whole idea of free speech. Why, she asked, wouldn't a general statute that simply bars demonstrations within 500 feet of a funeral take care of the problem?

Justice Samuel Alito interjected that a law like that wouldn't bar someone from coming up to Snyder at the funeral and spitting in his face. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg caustically pointed out that "you would have to be a lot closer than the law allows to spit in someone's face."

If Summers, representing Snyder, had a difficult time of it, Margie Phelps, representing the picketers, faced even tougher questioning. Phelps is the daughter of Pastor Phelps, the lead picketer in the case. And the justices threw one hypothetical after another at her.

First Amendment

"Suppose your group or some other group picks a wounded soldier and follows him around, demonstrates at his home, his workplace, at his church," postulated Justice Kagan. Suppose in doing that, they are saying offensive and outrageous things similar to those spouted by the protesters in this case. Does that soldier have a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress?

Phelps answered that "any nonspeech activity like stalking, importuning, being confrontational" could indeed justify a damage suit.

Kagan followed up, asking whether there could be a claim for demonstrations, without disruption, at a person's home, workplace or church. Phelps said that in that case, there would be no basis for a lawsuit.

Justice Ginsburg neatly summed up the issue in its most basic terms: "This is a case about exploiting a private family's grief, and the question is: Why should the First Amendment tolerate exploiting this Marine's family when you have so many other forums for getting across your message?"

Phelps argued that if demonstrators abide by the law's requirements for time, place and manner of their protest, they know when they are acting legally. The notion of exploitation, however, is so wide open, she said, that it provides "no principle of law to guide people as to when they could or could not" protest.

Publicity

Chief Justice Roberts noted that the protesters here had selected the funeral as a demonstration site to get publicity for their cause. Does that matter, he asked?

No, Phelps said flatly, because every speaker tries to get maximum exposure for his cause.

Taking another tack, Justice Alito observed that the picketers' argument "depends on the proposition that this is speech on a matter of public concern," and he posed yet another hypothetical: What if someone believes that African-Americans are inferior and then berates an African-American on the street with epithets of racial hatred?

While contending that "the issue of race is matter of public concern," Phelps conceded that "approaching an individual up close to berate them gets you out of the zone of [First Amendment] protection."

What Is Appropriate?

Justice Anthony Kennedy, however, seemed to reject Phelps' conception of what constitutes a matter of public concern. "In a pluralistic society," anything can "turn into a public issue," he noted, while at the same time suggesting that can't be enough to justify allowing protesters to follow people around with pickets.

Justice Breyer, citing the right to be let alone, noted the First Amendment does not bar state damage suits when they are appropriate. But what is appropriate?

The justice again said he was "looking for a line."

Phelps replied that "there must be some actual physical sound, sight, intrusion if you are talking about invasion of privacy."

Justice Sotomayor inquired, what is the line between strong opinion on a public issue and personalizing it to create "hardship for an individual?"

That is the question facing the court — and Wednesday's argument gave few hints on how the justices will resolve it. It did appear, though, that some justices who just months ago expanded the right of free speech to allow corporations to spend unlimited amounts in candidate elections are looking for a way to limit the rights of picketers at funerals.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130379867

Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2010, 06:25:47 PM »
First of all you can stop with the fucking immoral, unjust propaganda bullshit. And exactly how do you know this information on civilian casualties? Were you there? How do you know it wasn't some Al Queda asshole blowing up a market? If you really want I can go back and find the senate bill that authorized regime change in Iraq, I believe it was passed under Clinton. Like I said check Yons website, if you chose not to then don't post a bunch of unsubstantiated information.

im not defending democrats you ignorant bastard

we caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people with our immoral  fake "war on terror"

bottom line
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George Whorewell

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2010, 06:44:29 PM »
im not defending democrats you ignorant bastard

we caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people with our immoral  fake "war on terror"

bottom line

First of all, who is "we" you ignorant fucktard?

Secondly, what does the war on terror have to do with Iraq?

Finally, I recommend that you stop sniffing glue and trolling getbig to find pics of chemically enhanced geriatric females. Clearly, the two or three brain cells that you have left are evaporating.

Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2010, 07:29:29 PM »
First of all, who is "we" you ignorant fucktard?

Secondly, what does the war on terror have to do with Iraq?

Finally, I recommend that you stop sniffing glue and trolling getbig to find pics of chemically enhanced geriatric females. Clearly, the two or three brain cells that you have left are evaporating.

we the people of the us, the ones responsible for all these innocent deaths.....  :-\

face it its hard
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George Whorewell

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 07:32:44 PM »
So the people of the US are responsible for civilian deaths in any country where the US government decides to engage in military action?

You're not too bright are you?

Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2010, 07:54:01 PM »
US government decides to engage in military action

last time i checked this was a democracy, we the people are the government.

the blood is on our hands face it
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Kazan

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2010, 06:30:14 AM »
im not defending democrats you ignorant bastard

we caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people with our immoral  fake "war on terror"

bottom line

I mention Clinton because he happened to be POTUS when the bill was passed and that somehow translates into you defending democrats? And you call me an ignorant bastard?

Really? We caused the death of hundreds of thousands, provide proof or shut your pie hole.

And its a "fake" war now? Again provide proof.
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Kazan

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2010, 06:31:55 AM »
last time i checked this was a democracy, we the people are the government.

the blood is on our hands face it

Really? Last time I checked we live in a representative republic.

Here's an idea have a fucking clue about the US governmental system.

I thought the public school system sucked, but you have really opened my eye's just how useless it really is.
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George Whorewell

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2010, 06:43:56 AM »
Im starting to suspect this POS is a Muslim or terrorist sympathizing leftist. He is using the same warped logic that terrorists use to excuse killing civilians on purpose.

Kazan

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2010, 06:46:24 AM »
Im starting to suspect this POS is a Muslim or terrorist sympathizing leftist. He is using the same warped logic that terrorists use to excuse killing civilians on purpose.


He's just another clueless lib trying to sound intelligent. And just like Obama uses all vague, lofty language with zero proof to back up his claims.
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Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2010, 09:19:41 AM »
Really? Last time I checked we live in a representative republic.

yep

that's a democratic system you ignorant bastard

hard to face the fact that were personally responsible (you and me) for so many civilian casualties  :-\
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Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2010, 09:20:40 AM »
Im starting to suspect this POS is a Muslim or terrorist sympathizing leftist. He is using the same warped logic that terrorists use to excuse killing civilians on purpose.

simmer down now
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Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2010, 09:22:34 AM »
this is logical:

were attacked by saudis yet we invade a country that posed absolutely no threat to us causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the process.

thats very moral  :-X
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Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2010, 09:31:38 AM »
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

there you go

these innocent civilians would be alive today if not for our invasion of their country.

 :-X

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

let me guess, those are all inaccurate lib sources though.... try and find some way to weasel out of the responsibility, you can't.  the blood is on our hands, how christian of us...
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George Whorewell

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2010, 09:49:56 AM »
This is Blackens worst gimmick yet. Sheer stupidity and ignorance personified.

Cy Tolliver

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Re: High court struggles with funeral protest case
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2010, 09:51:08 AM »
Im starting to suspect this POS is a Muslim or terrorist sympathizing leftist. He is using the same warped logic that terrorists use to excuse killing civilians on purpose.

we sure liberated these poor kids....  :-X














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