Objective critique about bikini, new WPD and the end of female BB

[Howard]

Words like "ripped", dry, hard, diced, etc...will not be of any use in the WPD. Thats not the criteria thats being drawn up.

Key words would be feminine, athletic, tone, beautiful, graceful, etc...

Bob if womans PHYSIQUE is really put in I would be 100% for it so long as they do regular BB poses.
I keep thinking back to Pumping Iron II, The Woman and how the judges kept rewarding the bigger and more ripped girls over a few years.
It was gradual creep from the 80's into the 90's but it changed and the judges NEVER enforced the feminine standards you outlined.
If we keep the same judges it "MIGHT" not work my friend. Your ideas and standards will only be as good as the judges that adhere to them.

 8)I think some basic urine drug testing would work better and use the actual IFBB rules we already have on the books for judging and banned stubstances.
Who knows, good luck, I sure as hell don't have all the answers and am just a blowhard fan sitting in Ga.

[Chick]

Bob if womans PHYSIQUE is really put in I would be 100% for it so long as they do regular BB poses.
I keep thinking back to Pumping Iron II, The Woman and how the judges kept rewarding the bigger and more ripped girls over a few years.
It was gradual creep from the 80's into the 90's but it changed and the judges NEVER enforced the feminine standards you outlined.
If we keep the same judges it "MIGHT" not work my friend. Your ideas and standards will only be as good as the judges that adhere to them.

 8)I think some basic urine drug testing would work better and use the actual IFBB rules we already have on the books for judging and banned stubstances.
Who knows, good luck, I sure as hell don't have all the answers and am just a blowhard fan sitting in Ga.

It will be in, thats not debatable...it was voted on and approved...

They will do regular poses, just made more feminine...open handed, etc

routines will be routines, up to the competitor to do what they wish to display their physique

quarter turns, mandatory comparisons...

As for drug testing, impractical as you know from our past iscussions, but unnecssary if the judging is done correctly...dont reward a look that doesnt fit, and the girls wont show up with a look that doesnt fit...

Steroids will not help a WP athlete, only insure that they're in the last callout...

[~UN_$ung~]

Words like "ripped", dry, hard, diced, etc...will not be of any use in the WPD. Thats not the criteria thats being drawn up.

Key words would be feminine, athletic, tone, beautiful, graceful, etc...

i think its  a disgrace that you ascribing gender roles to physique competition, that now women have to fit into some sexual archetype in order to compete

and not be judged on their physique development, but on sexuality, and on what men think they should look like

even the words your usin g as criteria, have gender connotation



lucky the IFBB/NPC only have a limited sphere of influence, cause the injustice they are doing to women is profound


will the new bylaws say things like "a true lady never breaks a sweat, and never exerts herself, and walks like she is balancing a phone book on her head"






if the bimbos that populate the IFBB/NPC had any dignity and pride, they would make a statement with a collective exodus from these arcane sexist organizations but they will let themselves get walked on like dumb whores

[Claire]

It will be in, thats not debatable...it was voted on and approved...

They will do regular poses, just made more feminine...open handed, etc

routines will be routines, up to the competitor to do what they wish to display their physique

quarter turns, mandatory comparisons...

As for drug testing, impractical as you know from our past iscussions, but unnecssary if the judging is done correctly...dont reward a look that doesnt fit, and the girls wont show up with a look that doesnt fit...

Steroids will not help a WP athlete, only insure that they're in the last callout...

Are we seriously going with the notion that only the FBB and MBB are the ones doing drugs to get big or get into conditioning.  UMMMMM  very interesting concept to put that out there.  

[Wiggs]

Are we seriously going with the notion that only the FBB and MBB are the ones doing drugs to get big or get into conditioning.  UMMMMM  very interesting concept to put that out there.  

Whether or not other females are on drugs isn't the question or the problem...What is the problem is the IFBB continuing losing money by dragging what has becoming a quite pathetic show of what can't even be considered females unless you saw what was in their pants and even then in most cases you'd question what you just saw....fucking disgusting and pathetic, now you can do you it on your own dime but you won't be rewarded for it.

[ripitupbaby]

I'm more confused than ever now 

I'm starting to lose the distinction between figure and the new WPD, other than the posing.

[MB]

I'm more confused than ever now 

I'm starting to lose the distinction between figure and the new WPD, other than the posing.

There really is no distinction.  If you want to keep it feminine and you want it to look like early '80s female bodybuilding, then figure is about the limit of muscularity.  Fitness, figure, and physique will only be separated by routines, quarter turns, and posing.  Unless the judges allow the WPD to be more muscular than Bob's leading on? 

[johnnynoname]

Like most men, I enjoy looking at a pretty, sexy girl in a skimpy bikini.
The new bikini division and woman's figure comprised at least 2/3 of the entrants at the recent NPC nationals.
These new divisions seem popular and have fit, attractive females featured on stage.
So what's the problem? Simple. It isn't BODYBUILING. It's a swimsuit contest.
The majority of those on stage at this years NPC nationals were NOT bodybuilders.

Both male and female bodybuilders have used more extreme levels of drugs, starting in the 1960's with moderate usegage.
With the top female pros this increase in androgenic compounds have caused the top place winners to look less female.
Despite this UN- natural* look, the judges kept picking the big freaky girls over more feminine ones.
Bob Chick is right, this result has plenty of places to put the blame.

The reality is that this UN-natural* look is the direct result of extreme drug use. ( *spelling intended for effect)
If you stopped the extreme drug use, you wouldn't get the extreme androgenic look.
The females could be on stage as flexing BODYBUILDERS and not some diluted down version of it.

I know that i'm coming in out of nowhere and not following up on all the replies made on this thread but i need to reiterate that this is a thread where a "Straight" man is complaining about there being a "swimsuit contest" at a male bodybuilding show



AGAIN- "Straight" man!!!!!

[ripitupbaby]

I am assuming that this new division will be a good home for LW bodybuilders.

But the part that's confusing me is that alot of figure competitors who do well now in figure are being posted up as examples of potential WPD physiques...along with pics of some 80s/retro FBB physiques.  But the figure competitors are already bigger and harder than the 80s FBBs.  Yet the WPD is supposed to be a step up from figure but a step down from BB?

[johnnynoname]

A STRAIGHT FUCKING MAN!!!!!!!!!

[Howard]

I am assuming that this new division will be a good home for LW bodybuilders.

But the part that's confusing me is that alot of figure competitors who do well now in figure are being posted up as examples of potential WPD physiques...along with pics of some 80s/retro FBB physiques.  But the figure competitors are already bigger and harder than the 80s FBBs.  Yet the WPD is supposed to be a step up from figure but a step down from BB?

I would consider going to NABBA and jumping ship on the NPC if I was a female bodybuilder. They just threw FBB under the buss.

[Howard]

I know that i'm coming in out of nowhere and not following up on all the replies made on this thread but i need to reiterate that this is a thread where a "Straight" man is complaining about there being a "swimsuit contest" at a male bodybuilding show



AGAIN- "Straight" man!!!!!

I am a closet schmoe and secretly want some she beast to pound me up the kiester with a big strap on while she insults my manhood 

LOL, not really,
The issue is % of time on stage . At this yrs nationals we had over 300 bikini and figure entrants and it took over 3hrs before we had the fist male BB on stage...and it was the NPC National bodybuilding meet and it was at least 2/3 NON bodybuilding.

[Vince B]

Look at the complete mess in both men's and women's bodybuilding because of stooges like Bob Chick. They could do drug testing but they choose not to. The government should shut down the IFBB and Pro Division for not testing for banned substances. That is the first requirement - strict testing for banned substances both at comps and out of comp.

Femininity is a psychological construct. This so-called quality doesn't exist in nature. We can only imagine the nonsense that will happen in the new physique division. Get rid of all breast implants. That should solve many of the aesthetic problems. Bob thinks posing with open hands is feminine? What a joke. Obviously the IFBB has learned absolutely nothing over the last 50 years.

Costumes have to be considered. Whoever chose the female ones used in bodybuilding did a bad thing for women's aesthetics. There is an area on the women above the thighs that has little or no muscle. So why reveal this area with high cut costumes?

If you collect a bunch of knuckleheads to judge contests with criteria made by stooges then you have a recipe for a complete disaster. I like the part where Bob states that it takes time for competitors to know how to look for the judges. Yeah, that is beautiful Bob! Maybe we can have official stooges going around telling the gals how they are progressing and if they are too much.

[~UN_$ung~]

Look at the complete mess in both men's and women's bodybuilding because of stooges like Bob Chick. They could do drug testing but they choose not to. The government should shut down the IFBB and Pro Division for not testing for banned substances. That is the first requirement - strict testing for banned substances both at comps and out of comp.

Femininity is a psychological construct. This so-called quality doesn't exist in nature. We can only imagine the nonsense that will happen in the new physique division. Get rid of all breast implants. That should solve many of the aesthetic problems. Bob thinks posing with open hands is feminine? What a joke. Obviously the IFBB has learned absolutely nothing over the last 50 years.

Costumes have to be considered. Whoever chose the female ones used in bodybuilding did a bad thing for women's aesthetics. There is an area on the women above the thighs that has little or no muscle. So why reveal this area with high cut costumes?

If you collect a bunch of knuckleheads to judge contests with criteria made by stooges then you have a recipe for a complete disaster. I like the part where Bob states that it takes time for competitors to know how to look for the judges. Yeah, that is beautiful Bob! Maybe we can have official stooges going around telling the gals how they are progressing and if they are too much.

does the pathos ever end.........


lonely old misanthrope

[ripitupbaby]

I would consider going to NABBA and jumping ship on the NPC if I was a female bodybuilder. They just threw FBB under the buss.

Nah... I like the direction that we're talking about for FBB, and I'm pretty sure that there's somewhere for me to compete in the IFBB.  I saw a statment from Jim Manion that said there will be open-handed BB posing and no shoes in this division... so this is promising.

[bigmike99]

i think its  a disgrace that you ascribing gender roles to physique competition, that now women have to fit into some sexual archetype in order to compete

and not be judged on their physique development, but on sexuality, and on what men think they should look like

even the words your usin g as criteria, have gender connotation



lucky the IFBB/NPC only have a limited sphere of influence, cause the injustice they are doing to women is profound


will the new bylaws say things like "a true lady never breaks a sweat, and never exerts herself, and walks like she is balancing a phone book on her head"






if the bimbos that populate the IFBB/NPC had any dignity and pride, they would make a statement with a collective exodus from these arcane sexist organizations but they will let themselves get walked on like dumb whores

100% correct

[Chick]

Are we seriously going with the notion that only the FBB and MBB are the ones doing drugs to get big or get into conditioning.  UMMMMM  very interesting concept to put that out there.  

Thats not up for debate....

It's a certain LOOK thats being put on display, no one is throwing stones, or insinuating that the only ones using any supps are FBBers...

The CRITERIA will dictate what look is rewarded, I can guarantee you that taking gear will NOT help to meet the criteria of the new division...

[Howard]

Thats not up for debate....

It's a certain LOOK thats being put on display, no one is throwing stones, or insinuating that the only ones using any supps are FBBers...

The CRITERIA will dictate what look is rewarded, I can guarantee you that taking gear will NOT help to meet the criteria of the new division...

Well Bob, if anyone can turn the sport around , you can, Not sure if this will work but I wish you the best.
I won't judge again and enjoy lifting and being in the gym, but won't offer any support for the new IFBB/NPC myself.

[homonunculus]

I"ll toss this in here, especially since I see that Bob is reading this...

Does the IFBB, IFBB Pro League or the NPC (any of them) have a MISSION statement?...   The names of these organizations suggest a purpose that would be embodied in respective Mission Statements.

At the risk of stating the oh so obvious, "Bodybuilding" and "Physique" suggest that these concepts would likely be clearly defined, governed, and/or the focus of the organization(s), as described eloquently by the mission statement (or a statement of purpose, or something of the like....)  Sounds to me like something the Weiders might have done.  (I've seen a Vision statement, but it really addresses lifestyle, not so much competition.)

If you've got a well-written mission statement (that's revised appropriately as needed), this kind of waxing and waning about basic things like what are essentially the RULES of the competition (physique criteria) don't occur:  Can you imagine if referees just started awarding a 4 point shot to guys who could hit a jumper from behind the half-court line?...  ("Wow, that was better than a three pointer - give those guys an extra point for that!"  ) This isn't much different that the slowly creeping physique definitions in women's BB'ing... UNLESS, for instance, the mission statement supports the maximum development in terms of muscularity of women...    (With a mission statement, even unusual questions that might be relevant now that might not have been 30 years ago, like even whether women bodybuilders are classified or defined as "women" biologically (chromosomes?...) or simply by being female in gender, could be answered if there is a mission statement which addresses this, one way or another.  Mission statements are nice reference points when you're not sure what the hell to do...)

So, the philosophical complaints ("This physique shit ain't bodybuilding") vs. business arguments ("Hey, promoters with more entries can hold more shows so bring in the bikini competitors") could be a hell of a lot more easily resolvable by whether or not new divisions fall within the Mission statement.  A mission statement that clearly defines bodybuilding might dictate that Bikini just isn't what the NPC is about, for instance...

I'll be PC here and say that at this point, it really does seem that creating new divisions (women's physique in the NPC) when old ones seem to fall out of favor (e.g., women's BB'ing) suggest that the organizations (NPC) might just be lacking in guiding principles that demand support and definition of the nature of the endeavor it proposes to govern.  In other words, when the governing body of a particular endeavor can't decide what that endeavor actually is and stick to its guns, something's bass-ackwards.  OTOH, if the NPC is just generally about creating competitive arenas / divisions for body comparison (without a focus on development beyond the ordinary), then heck, make 15 divisions if folks will step up to compete.  Literally, without a mission statement, there could just as easily be a "hottest redhead" award and a "best buttocks award," etc. like at a wet T-shirt contest, and it might fit within the parameters of the NPC without guiding principles stamped out in black and white.

Anyone know if such a mission statement / statement of purpose once existed, does exist or, heck, might even be something the powers that be would consider deriving?... 

-Scott

[Chick]

I"ll toss this in here, especially since I see that Bob is reading this...

Does the IFBB, IFBB Pro League or the NPC (any of them) have a MISSION statement?...   The names of these organizations suggest a purpose that would be embodied in respective Mission Statements.

At the risk of stating the oh so obvious, "Bodybuilding" and "Physique" suggest that these concepts would likely be clearly defined, governed, and/or the focus of the organization(s), as described eloquently by the mission statement (or a statement of purpose, or something of the like....)  Sounds to me like something the Weiders might have done.  (I've seen a Vision statement, but it really addresses lifestyle, not so much competition.)

If you've got a well-written mission statement (that's revised appropriately as needed), this kind of waxing and waning about basic things like what are essentially the RULES of the competition (physique criteria) don't occur:  Can you imagine if referees just started awarding a 4 point shot to guys who could hit a jumper from behind the half-court line?...  ("Wow, that was better than a three pointer - give those guys an extra point for that!"  ) This isn't much different that the slowly creeping physique definitions in women's BB'ing... UNLESS, for instance, the mission statement supports the maximum development in terms of muscularity of women...    (With a mission statement, even unusual questions that might be relevant now that might not have been 30 years ago, like even whether women bodybuilders are classified or defined as "women" biologically (chromosomes?...) or simply by being female in gender, could be answered if there is a mission statement which addresses this, one way or another.  Mission statements are nice reference points when you're not sure what the hell to do...)

So, the philosophical complaints ("This physique shit ain't bodybuilding") vs. business arguments ("Hey, promoters with more entries can hold more shows so bring in the bikini competitors") could be a hell of a lot more easily resolvable by whether or not new divisions fall within the Mission statement.  A mission statement that clearly defines bodybuilding might dictate that Bikini just isn't what the NPC is about, for instance...

I'll be PC here and say that at this point, it really does seem that creating new divisions (women's physique in the NPC) when old ones seem to fall out of favor (e.g., women's BB'ing) suggest that the organizations (NPC) might just be lacking in guiding principles that demand support and definition of the nature of the endeavor it proposes to govern.  In other words, when the governing body of a particular endeavor can't decide what that endeavor actually is and stick to its guns, something's bass-ackwards.  OTOH, if the NPC is just generally about creating competitive arenas / divisions for body comparison (without a focus on development beyond the ordinary), then heck, make 15 divisions if folks will step up to compete.  Literally, without a mission statement, there could just as easily be a "hottest redhead" award and a "best buttocks award," etc. like at a wet T-shirt contest, and it might fit within the parameters of the NPC without guiding principles stamped out in black and white.

Anyone know if such a mission statement / statement of purpose once existed, does exist or, heck, might even be something the powers that be would consider deriving?... 

-Scott

I'm a little unclear, are you suggesting a mission statement?

[tom joad]

I'm a little unclear, are you suggesting a mission statement?

hahaha

[homonunculus]

I'm a little unclear, are you suggesting a mission statement?

I KNEW there was a reason you were made Athlete's rep, Bob. 

-S

[homonunculus]

I'm a little unclear, are you suggesting a mission statement?

I guess we've also answered the question (or what was left of it) as to whether is there IS a mission statement for the NPC, IFBB or IFBB Pro League...  <sigh>

I do thank you for the time and energy you put into the sport, in many ways, Bob...

-Scott

[kmhphoto]

The difference between someone having a Hany Rambod or George Farrah in their corner and doing everything themselves can be the difference between 1st and 10th place...that's kind of sad when you think about it...Put in 12-16 weeks of prep and it's all down the tube cause Hany or George did or didn't dry you out...

Although their clients are happy with the contribution the "guru's" make I haven't seen one of them setting a new standard in conditioning or consistency.
Yate, Levrone, Ray, Sonbaty, Priest and many others all had conditioning that would match anyone on stage today and
they also all had off days which is something the Guru's have not been able to prevent in the current crop of pro's,