Dad Confronts Abortion Protesters

[bears]

I can't understand why anyone would feel there are no circumstances in which an abortion is ok.  Those guys are nuts and I'm not going to even say I understand.  I don't understand them.  If the baby is going to be dead, there isn't much of a point to arguing for the life of that baby and the alternative of forcing that baby to be born is just forcing uneeded trauma on that mother.  I've actually had some of these people tell me that the circumstances I'm talking about don't exsist, seriously...

Of course they exist.  Thats silly.  But again i need to reiterate that those cirumstances exist for less than 1 out of every 150 abortions performed.  

I think if the left would simply admit that abortion is being abused in this country the discourse between pro choice and pro life might be a little different and maybe even a little better.  But that just will not happen.  Even though everyone knows that it is being abused.

[Dos Equis]

I didn't say it should... I said it does.

Don't start going down the retarded "Nazi" line... that shit is played out. No one is Hitler... get over it. You have now lost all credibility.

How exactly does abortion weed out the weak? 

[tu_holmes]

How exactly does abortion weed out the weak? 

The lesser well to do.

Statistically, most abortions are performed on single unwed women... Who will most likely not be able to take care of a child in the manner it's needed... Whether it's because of money or lack of attention due to job requirements to survive.

As such, those children were they not aborted would be the ones most likely to commit crime.

[bears]

I didn't say it should... I said it does.

Don't start going down the retarded "Nazi" line... that shit is played out. No one is Hitler... get over it. You have now lost all credibility.

Or you just refuse to accept that that line of thinking that you so ignorantly display is EXACTLY what it sounds like.  it's a stupid, ignorant defense for abortion that not even the most liberal politician would ever be SO STUPID to repeat in public.  I've lost credibility?  RIDICULOUS.

[tu_holmes]

Or you just refuse to accept that that line of thinking that you so ignorantly display is EXACTLY what it sounds like.  it's a stupid, ignorant defense for abortion that not even the most liberal politician would ever be SO STUPID to repeat in public.  I've lost credibility?  RIDICULOUS.

Dude... What the hell is more conservative then giving people their choice to do what THEY want to do when it does not affect YOU?

You're the liberal trying to get into everyone else's business... not me.

RETARDED STATEMENTS.

[Dos Equis]

The lesser well to do.

Statistically, most abortions are performed on single unwed women... Who will most likely not be able to take care of a child in the manner it's needed... Whether it's because of money or lack of attention due to job requirements to survive.

As such, those children were they not aborted would be the ones most likely to commit crime.

That's a pretty broad brush.  I think you're making at least two assumptions that I'm not sure are correct:

1.  That most women who have abortions are on welfare, not too bright, uneducated, cannot support themselves, etc.  Have you seen stats that show this? 

2.  That a significant number of aborted babies will not be productive members of society.   

[tu_holmes]

That's a pretty broad brush.  I think you're making at least two assumptions that I'm not sure are correct:

1.  That most women who have abortions are on welfare, not too bright, uneducated, cannot support themselves, etc.  Have you seen stats that show this? 

2.  That a significant number of aborted babies will not be productive members of society.   

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/statistics.asp

I'm simply giving the info.

Personally I've never had a child out of wed lock and never aborted any children... My 2 kids are great.

I'm just saying that statistically speaking, these are what is most likely to occur.

[bears]

Dude... What the hell is more conservative then giving people their choice to do what THEY want to do when it does not affect YOU?

You're the liberal trying to get into everyone else's business... not me.

RETARDED STATEMENTS.

i love it.  in your previous post you state that abortion affects us in a positive way by eliminating future welfare cases.  Now you are telling me that abortion does not affect us?  I think in your angry tirade you're getting confused.

I am not out protesting.  So no I am not getting into everyone else's business.  I'm simply stating my opinion which you obviously refuse to accept.  You ignorantly state that killing an unborn baby is OK because they usually fall into a certain demographic and the world is better off without them.  At least Hugo is capable of having a rational discussion about the issue.

[tu_holmes]

i love it.  in your previous post you state that abortion affects us in a positive way by eliminating future welfare cases.  Now you are telling me that abortion does not affect us?  I think in your angry tirade you're getting confused.

I am not out protesting.  So no I am not getting into everyone else's business.  I'm simply stating my opinion which you obviously refuse to accept.  You ignorantly state that killing an unborn baby is OK because they usually fall into a certain demographic and the world is better off without them.  At least Hugo is capable of having a rational discussion about the issue.

I'm saying that it doesn't affect YOU personally. If it does, then I'm sorry for your vagina.

Aren't you a conservative? Don't you believe in the Death penalty and locking people up?

You think that these kids who run the streets and are criminals are not at all a product of the environment in which they are raised?

You think that some of them would not be better off if they had not been born? You think the world wouldn't be?

Really?

You think that just because you're a person you provide some good to the greater good?

If you do, then you are the confused one. I'm being realistic about the world... Sorry it doesn't jive with you.

Some people do not provide anything to the world and are better off not in it.

[Dos Equis]

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/statistics.asp

I'm simply giving the info.

Personally I've never had a child out of wed lock and never aborted any children... My 2 kids are great.

I'm just saying that statistically speaking, these are what is most likely to occur.

You're doing more than giving info.  You're making assumptions that these aborted babies will not be good citizens, productive, etc. 

I don't think the link you provided has reliable statistics.  From the link:

The following material is taken from Appendix Two of Aborted Women: Silent No More by David C. Reardon (Loyola University Press, 1987).

Note, this was a survey of women who had some involvement with Women Exploited By Abortion, a peer support group for women who were experiencing negative post-abortion reaction. Because this is a self-selected sample of the those who had a "bad experience" these findings should not be interpreted as representative of a random sample of all women who have had abortions. What percentage of women have "bad experiences" such as those described herein remains unknown. (See Limitations on Post-Abortion Research: Why We Know So Little for a description of why post-abortion researchers have been unable to come up with even a crude estimate of how many women experience post-abortion problems.)

Despite the fact that this sample cannot be generalized to the whole population, the results do appear to be representative of the experiences of those women who do have difficulties after an abortion. This is a legitimate reference point in and of itself. This study is analogous to studying a group of patients who all becoming ill from, for example, an artificial sweetener. It is proper scientific method to study the symptoms and experiences of this group of "sick" patients. Only then can their "illness" be cataloged and a hypothesis be developed. Only after identifying the primary symptoms could one then go out and survey all users of the artificial sweetener to determine how widespread these symptoms may be. This latter stage is part of our ongoing work. In referring to the findings of this study, then, it would be most appropriate to say, for example, "Of women who report post-abortion problems, 53% felt 'forced' to abort by one or more other people, and 39% report feeling very much 'forced' to abort by others."

[tu_holmes]

You're doing more than giving info.  You're making assumptions that these aborted babies will not be good citizens, productive, etc. 

I don't think the link you provided has reliable statistics.  From the link:

The following material is taken from Appendix Two of Aborted Women: Silent No More by David C. Reardon (Loyola University Press, 1987).

Note, this was a survey of women who had some involvement with Women Exploited By Abortion, a peer support group for women who were experiencing negative post-abortion reaction. Because this is a self-selected sample of the those who had a "bad experience" these findings should not be interpreted as representative of a random sample of all women who have had abortions. What percentage of women have "bad experiences" such as those described herein remains unknown. (See Limitations on Post-Abortion Research: Why We Know So Little for a description of why post-abortion researchers have been unable to come up with even a crude estimate of how many women experience post-abortion problems.)

Despite the fact that this sample cannot be generalized to the whole population, the results do appear to be representative of the experiences of those women who do have difficulties after an abortion. This is a legitimate reference point in and of itself. This study is analogous to studying a group of patients who all becoming ill from, for example, an artificial sweetener. It is proper scientific method to study the symptoms and experiences of this group of "sick" patients. Only then can their "illness" be cataloged and a hypothesis be developed. Only after identifying the primary symptoms could one then go out and survey all users of the artificial sweetener to determine how widespread these symptoms may be. This latter stage is part of our ongoing work. In referring to the findings of this study, then, it would be most appropriate to say, for example, "Of women who report post-abortion problems, 53% felt 'forced' to abort by one or more other people, and 39% report feeling very much 'forced' to abort by others."

If you have better statistics, I'm all for seeing them.

Most statistics are from either pro-life or pro-choice groups, so if you can find one that is bi-partisan on the issue, I'll be happy to read it.

This was the most down the middle thing I could find at any given time on short notice.

If you can refute it without any bias, i'll be happy to take that into account, however, until then, I stand by my belief that if most abortions are done to those who would grow up in higher crime areas or to parents who do not want them or couldn't take care of them properly, that my assertion is valid.

[bears]

I'm saying that it doesn't affect YOU personally. If it does, then I'm sorry for your vagina.

Aren't you a conservative? Don't you believe in the Death penalty and locking people up?

You think that these kids who run the streets and are criminals are not at all a product of the environment in which they are raised?

You think that some of them would not be better off if they had not been born? You think the world wouldn't be?

Really?

You think that just because you're a person you provide some good to the greater good?

If you do, then you are the confused one. I'm being realistic about the world... Sorry it doesn't jive with you.
Some people do not provide anything to the world and are better off not in it.

FUCK I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START WITH THIS POST.  I am conservative.  No i don't believe that the death penalty is OK.  Your ignorance is becoming more palpable with every post.  Are you saying that the women who get abortions can not effectively raise a child?  Have you ever met a woman who has had an abortion?  I for one do not think that they would take very kindly to that ignorant ass statement.

I know you think that by your posts you are defending some liberal ideology but you're not.  you're simply outing yourself as an insensitive blowhard who thinks he knows whats best for everyone.  You think that the end justifies any means necessary and I do not agree.  Hopefully no one like you ever reaches the oval office  

[tonymctones]

I am all for abortion.

I would rather subsidize 250 bucks for an abortion (even though the rate is about only 1 in 4 are subsidized by some government entity) than to have to pay for welfare for 18 years.

Go Abortions!

PS... less crime too because of them... It's a win/win.

but unless im mistaken youre also for a mans right to walk away which makes sense...you have ppl like straw that dont see the hypocrisey of giving the woman a choice but not the man...not suprising though b/c straw doesnt know exactly what hypocrisey means 

[tu_holmes]

FUCK I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START WITH THIS POST.  I am conservative.  No i don't believe that the death penalty is OK.  Your ignorance is becoming more palpable with every post.  Are you saying that the women who get abortions can not effectively raise a child?  Have you ever met a woman who has had an abortion?  I for one do not think that they would take very kindly to that ignorant ass statement.

I know you think that by your posts you are defending some liberal ideology but you're not.  you're simply outing yourself as an insensitive blowhard who thinks he knows whats best for everyone.  You think that the end justifies any means necessary and I do not agree.  Hopefully no one like you ever reaches the oval office  

You answered two whole questions out of 5 I asked you... You can't start answering because it would cause you to actually think.

If a woman doesn't want a child at the time, and therefore gets an abortion, AT THE TIME, do you think if she couldn't get it, that she would be prepared or have the desire to effectively raise that child? There's a reason why she wants that abortion in the first place genius.\\

So not at the TIME of her abortion, no... she can not effectively raise the child, that's why she gets it.

Yes... I know women who have gotten abortions and because of the time, they could not take care of the child, so they got the abortion... LATER, when they were more prepared, then they had their children.

No, I don't think I know what's best for everyone, that's why I think people should be allowed the CHOICE for themselves.

You are so spacey it's pathetic.

[tu_holmes]

but unless im mistaken youre also for a mans right to walk away which makes sense...you have ppl like straw that dont see the hypocrisey of giving the woman a choice but not the man...not suprising though b/c straw doesnt know exactly what hypocrisey means 

Hell yes I am... If a woman can choose to get rid of the kid, then I should have the same right.

Either both parties can choose to not have to take care of the child, or neither can.

The fact it can be all up to "her" pisses me off to no end.

[tonymctones]

Hell yes I am... If a woman can choose to get rid of the kid, then I should have the same right.

Either both parties can choose to not have to take care of the child, or neither can.

The fact it can be all up to "her" pisses me off to no end.

agreed and agreed...

[Dos Equis]

If you have better statistics, I'm all for seeing them.

Most statistics are from either pro-life or pro-choice groups, so if you can find one that is bi-partisan on the issue, I'll be happy to read it.

This was the most down the middle thing I could find at any given time on short notice.

If you can refute it without any bias, i'll be happy to take that into account, however, until then, I stand by my belief that if most abortions are done to those who would grow up in higher crime areas or to parents who do not want them or couldn't take care of them properly, that my assertion is valid.

No, I'm not going to look for stats to refute your assumptions.  You should be able to step back and look at how broad your comments are.  I'm not calling you Hitler at all, but if you take yourself out of the equation for the sake of discussion, bears does make a valid point.  Saying that abortions weed out the week does come right out of the Nazi playbook.  (No, I'm not calling you a Nazi.)    

With some exceptions, it doesn't really matter to me what the source is, if the information is reliable.  That link you provided by its own admission is not reliable.  

[tu_holmes]

No, I'm not going to look for stats to refute your assumptions.  You should be able to step back and look at how broad your comments are.  I'm not calling you Hitler at all, but if you take yourself out of the equation for the sake of discussion, bears does make a valid point.  Saying that abortions weed out the week does come right out of the Nazi playbook.  (No, I'm not calling you a Nazi.)    

With some exceptions, it doesn't really matter to me what the source is, if the information is reliable.  That link you provided by its own admission is not reliable.  

Sure, but that's like saying that putting criminals away in prisons are as well... It's really the same shit.

You think that society is better off without them... You're trying to say that I'm just trying to weed out undesirable people... No.

I'm saying that people should have the choice to determine whether or not they are themselves capable of making a desirable child / adult / person on their OWN.

[Dos Equis]

Sure, but that's like saying that putting criminals away in prisons are as well... It's really the same shit.

You think that society is better off without them... You're trying to say that I'm just trying to weed out undesirable people... No.

I'm saying that people should have the choice to determine whether or not they are themselves capable of making a desirable child / adult / person on their OWN.

I don't agree with that comparison.  Criminals have made a conscience decision to break the law.  They're adults who were given an opportunity to be good citizens, and failed.  You can't make those assumptions about all aborted babies. 

Just to reiterate from the link you provided:  "Because this is a self-selected sample of the those who had a "bad experience" these findings should not be interpreted as representative of a random sample of all women who have had abortions."

[tu_holmes]

I don't agree with that comparison.  Criminals have made a conscience decision to break the law.  They're adults who were given an opportunity to be good citizens, and failed.  You can't make those assumptions about all aborted babies. 

Just to reiterate from the link you provided:  "Because this is a self-selected sample of the those who had a "bad experience" these findings should not be interpreted as representative of a random sample of all women who have had abortions."

Potential parents make a conscious decision when they realize they do not have the desire or the resources to be a proper parent.

Yes... It's a self selected sample... but it's what we got.

If someone has a better sample, I'm all for it.

[bears]

You answered two whole questions out of 5 I asked you... You can't start answering because it would cause you to actually think.

If a woman doesn't want a child at the time, and therefore gets an abortion, AT THE TIME, do you think if she couldn't get it, that she would be prepared or have the desire to effectively raise that child? There's a reason why she wants that abortion in the first place genius.\\

So not at the TIME of her abortion, no... she can not effectively raise the child, that's why she gets it.

Yes... I know women who have gotten abortions and because of the time, they could not take care of the child, so they got the abortion... LATER, when they were more prepared, then they had their children.

No, I don't think I know what's best for everyone, that's why I think people should be allowed the CHOICE for themselves.

You are so spacey it's pathetic.

TU you're a fucking birdbath .  YOU ARE SO FUCKING TYPICAL IT MAKES ME WANT TO VOMIT. 

You are the definitely the voice of this new generation.  You are devoid of any moral standing or backbone on this issue.  You can rationalize any killing of any unborn baby.  Back in 1973 everyone, conservatives AND liberals, were in agreement that there should at least be a reason to kill an unborn baby. 
Now it has come to the point where if the baby was killed, that is reason enough.  Do me a favor and think a little further past the tip of your own nose for a second.  You are relieving every person from any personal responsibility towards any life that they create.  THAT IS WRONG.  How you don’t see that just proves how vapid you really are. 
Personally I feel bad for our new generation of young men who have to come up in this world.  what I will tell my sons is that sex is for adults.  If you want to do adult things.  be ready to accept adult consequences.  its people like you who ruin kids by making them devoid of any real responsibility.   Why should these kids worry about pregnancy when they hear every day on their television set that it is OK to have an abortion.  They are hearing over and over again that what they created is not a life.  its just tissue.  why should they feel any responsibilty towards a piece of tissue?  I honestly feel bad for this generation.  we have bunch of parents who are teaching them not to take responsibility for their actions and to villify anyone who thinks that they should.  sad.

[Kazan]

Personally I think abortion is an abhorrent and barbaric practice, and if asked would advise anyone against it. On the other hand each person has to make the decision for themselves and accept the consequences of said actions.

[Straw Man]

Hell yes I am... If a woman can choose to get rid of the kid, then I should have the same right.

Either both parties can choose to not have to take care of the child, or neither can.

The fact it can be all up to "her" pisses me off to no end.

it's all up to her because she's the one who has to take all the risk (including death) of being pregnant

too bad there is not a way to transfer the fetus to the father and let him carry it and give birth

then both parties would be equal

until then the woman has the extra option because she has the extra burden

[Hugo Chavez]

you're treading very dangerous ground there man.  Are you going to tell a woman that the woman next to her can have an abortion but she cannot?  

The fact is you either have to let everyone or no one.  Currently we let everyone.

Just one more question on this.  So, if the laws on abortion were written to your liking, it would be illegal even for a mother to abort when a doctor has determined the mothers life is in danger from the pregnancy? You would be ok with forcing things like ectopic pregnancies to continue.  All or nothing right?

[bears]

Just one more question on this.  So, if the laws on abortion were written to your liking, it would be illegal even for a mother to abort when a doctor has determined the mothers life is in danger from the pregnancy? You would be ok with forcing things like ectopic pregnancies to continue.  All or nothing right?

Why is it that pro choice people always try to put words in my mouth?

In a previous post I EXPLICTLY STATED that in cases of rape/incest, danger to the mother's health, or if the kid is just so damn young, I think abortion is a viable, MORAL option.

When I say all or nothing what I mean is that you cannot enforce a law that examines abortion on a case by case basis.  It is logistically impossible.  Every person that gets an abortion can give you a reason that killing the baby is better than them not having it.  You cannot possibly weed out the people who deserve abortions from those who do not.  Fuck, if someone is thinking about killing their baby, should they then raise it?  

So to answer your question, in my perfect world, men and women would take responsibility for the lives that they create. If something were to happen similar to the case that this thread was originally talking about, then I believe that an abortion is acceptable.

Roe v Wade was passed for this reason.  So that people in those kinds of situations had an option.  The law has been abused by people who think along the same lines as TU in that abortion is NOT a last resort.  It is now a form of birth control.  

And TU takes it a step further and wants to present abortion as something that contributes to the greater good of society.  It is this line of reasoning (if thats what you want to call it) that I take issue with.   This is exactly what conservatives were worried about back in 1973.  Liberals told them that they were fucking nuts and that there is no way that our country's moral compass would ever reach that kind of low.  Well look where we are now.