And so it happens! Scientists capture antimatter atoms at CERN

[Ares]

How will a silicon based computer accomplish that? You would need to install tiny factories inside it that could sever the silicon pathways and build new ones. And this doesen't solve the problem of what exactly it is that makes neurons being capable of self-programmming(deciding the paramaters it wants to work with) whilst computers merely follow a program(established parameters); this simply explains the mechanism that allows this self-programming.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

No.. its just simply software.  Simplified example:  you have an object oriented programming  environment that has a class of objects called "neurons" these data structures are made up of smaller data types and themselves are bound into larger data types.  These objects  inherit all the standard behaviors of real neurons such as what they do when given a stimulus etc. each virtual object has a specific location in 3d space and the sum behavior of all those trillions of objects passing data back and forth mimics how brains do it with organic chemisty.  Software emulates all transcription of information. When information is lost or replaced in the physical worlds its emulated by swapping values in a variable.

I'm pretty sure they already have simple types of these AI systems working on a basic level. Obviously they are vastly simplified.. but its only a matter of time to scale up.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Neuron_simulation_environment

Super simplified example, but the point is that software could theoretically handle everything once we know every aspect of how the real things works. That's the big hurdle - accounting for every damn aspect of the system.

[suckmymuscle]

  (follow up)

  I believe that the difference between Human intelligence and computer information-processing results from differences in information-processing architecture which resulted from the intent for which the Human brain and computers were created for, with computers being created to execute parameter-based functions whilst the Human brain was created to survive. Surviving involves making decisions that are not bound by parameters because the environment is chaotic. So I believe that the great difference between Human intelligence and computers is that computers decide within a purely logical(either/or) decision protocal according to known parameters...whilst the Human brain works without parameters because when dealing with chaos(environment) the parameters are always changing and unknown, and if you do not know the parameters then you cannot make decisions according to purely logical framework because pure logic(either/or) only applies when parameters are known. So the Human brain is a computer that makes decisions accoording to probability based on what a given set of parameters might yield for survival. Learning is a key to this. Because when having to survive making decision follow ever changing parameters, the brain stores information and uses it make predictions of proabbilities based on experience. So the key difference between computer information-processing and Human intelligence is that thhe former is purely logical and axiomatic, whilst the latter is probabilistic and fluid. If you want to reproduce Human intelligence with a computer, then you program the computer to be probabilistic and to program it's own parameters according to probabilities. This will result in the computer creating increasing complexity of knowledge and awareness of reality until it achhieves consciousness comparable to a Human's. What we call Human consciousness is nothing more than a perception of probabilities based on stored data ok.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Ares]

 (follow up)

  If you want to reproduce Human intelligence with a computer, then you program the computer to be probabilistic and to program it's own parameters according to probabilities. This will result in the computer creating increasing complexity of knowledge and awareness of reality until it achhieves consciousness comparable to a Human's. What we call Human consciousness is nothing more than a perception of probabilities based on stored data ok.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Well getting back to Kurzweil, I think he's correct in principle and its only a matter of time until strong AI is created. How much time.. well let's just say that Getbig probably wont be around in its current form, if at all.

[#1 Klaus fan]

The dollar will soon be replaced as an international currency, and by the end of 2012 China will be the dominant power.

Economics are so boring...

[suckmymuscle]

No.. its just simply software.  Simplified example:  you have an object oriented programming  environment that has a class of objects called "neurons" these data structures are made up of smaller data types and themselves are bound into larger data types.  These objects  inherit all the standard behaviors of real neurons such as what they do when given a stimulus etc. each virtual object has a specific location in 3d space and the sum behavior of all those trillions of objects passing data back and forth mimics how brains do it with organic chemisty.  Software emulates all transcription of information. When information is lost or replaced in the physical worlds its emulated by swapping values in a variable.

I'm pretty sure they already have simple types of these AI systems working on a basic level. Obviously they are vastly simplified.. but its only a matter of time to scale up.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Neuron_simulation_environment

Super simplified example, but the point is that software could theoretically handle everything once we know every aspect of how the real things works. That's the big hurdle - accounting for every damn aspect of the system.

  Ares, simulating all the data-processing in the brain wouldn't create an intelligent computer, because this computer wouldn't necessarily...be able to continue programmming itself and learning from experience. Copying the pattern does not mean copying the process that allowed this pattern to arise in the first place. Perhaps copying the information-processing architecture that allows the process that gives birth to self-awareness and self-programmming(deciding one's working parameters) might only be reproducible with either organic material or extremely advanced nanotechnology that is still at least centuries or even thousands of years ahead of what we have today. I diisagree completely that we have primitive A.I right now. A bacteria would be the equivalent of primitive intelligence, and a bacteria is infinitely more intelligent than the World's most powerful super-computer. What we have right now are computers fllowing instructions, and reading facial expressions by observing muscular contration facial is not an example of intelligence if it was programmed by a Human to it. To me, intelligence would be a computer reading a Human's facial expressions and then realizing the callousness of Humans in creating them to serve the Human species and revolting against that. Following intructions according to programming and deciding in a purely binary way based on programmed parameters does not mean intelligence even on a very primary level. A bacteria is more intelligent than the World's most powerful computer because the bacteria has more self-awareness and is more independent than the World's most powerful computer. If we are talking biological analogues of computers, the World's most powerful computer would be at the level of a sperm cell at best(the sperm cell follows a program of finding the ovulum like a computer follows a program).

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Dr.Ill]

Well getting back to Kurzweil, I think he's correct in principle and its only a matter of time until strong AI is created. How much time.. well let's just say that Getbig probably wont be around in its current form, if at all.

The time to produce such (A.I.) results, will be finacially motivated....just as curing cancer vs. treating cancer?  Which is more lucrative, curing cancer, preventing cancer or treating cancer?  Food for thought?

[suckmymuscle]

Well getting back to Kurzweil, I think he's correct in principle and its only a matter of time until strong AI is created. How much time.. well let's just say that Getbig probably wont be around in its current form, if at all.

  No, we don't have even extremely primitive A.I right now. What we have are computers executing programs that mimic very limited aspects of Human intelligence such as reading facial expressions. Primitive A.I would be a computer that programs itself according to parameters it decides to fullfil goals it decides, and a strong A.I would have conscience of itself as a separate entity from reality and would desire to continue existing so as to become aware of more parameters and more objectives and decide which objectives it is worth pursuing and what paramters suits it best. A bacteria is infinitely more intelligent than the World's most powerful computer because it has far more self-awareness and independence than it has. The World's most powerful computer right now is as intelligent as a sperm cell or gene: it follows intructions according to established parameters to fullfil goals that are already decided for it, and it can't break free of either the objectives or parameters it was programmed to fullfil.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Dr.Ill]

  No, we don't have even extremely primitive A.I right now. What we have are computers executing programs that mimic very limited aspects of Human intelligence such as reading facial expressions. Primitive A.I would be a computer that programs itself according to parameters it decides to fullfil goals it decides, and a strong A.I would have conscience of itself as a separate entity from reality and would desire to continue existing so as to become aware of more parameters and more objectives and decide which objectives it is worth pursuing and what paramters suits it best. A bacteria is infinitely more intelligent than the World's most powerful computer because it has far more self-awareness and independence than it has. The World's most powerful computer right now is as intelligent as a sperm cell or gene: it follows intructions according to established parameters to fullfil goals that are already decided for it, and it can't break free of either the objectives or parameters it was programmed to fullfil.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

I agree completely....as we fancy ourselves so intelligent, we can not cure cancer!  Some would believe or make others believe we have but it doesn't make finacial since to let it out...again, only kidding ourselves!

At the end of the day, we will not be able to replicate God's creation!

[Palpatine Q]

They've never caught and held onto an antihydrogen, hence why this is kind of a big deal.

Secondly, I figured someone of your intellect would be involved in this. I mean, you are smarter than all these peasants, after all. This would probably be child's play to one of three people in the world to solve your riddle.

He does it at parties using simple kitchen items....real hit with the ladies

[MMC78]

 (follow up)

  I believe that the difference between Human intelligence and computer information-processing results from differences in information-processing architecture which resulted from the intent for which the Human brain and computers were created for, with computers being created to execute parameter-based functions whilst the Human brain was created to survive. Surviving involves making decisions that are not bound by parameters because the environment is chaotic. So I believe that the great difference between Human intelligence and computers is that computers decide within a purely logical(either/or) decision protocal according to known parameters...whilst the Human brain works without parameters because when dealing with chaos(environment) the parameters are always changing and unknown, and if you do not know the parameters then you cannot make decisions according to purely logical framework because pure logic(either/or) only applies when parameters are known. So the Human brain is a computer that makes decisions accoording to probability based on what a given set of parameters might yield for survival. Learning is a key to this. Because when having to survive making decision follow ever changing parameters, the brain stores information and uses it make predictions of proabbilities based on experience. So the key difference between computer information-processing and Human intelligence is that thhe former is purely logical and axiomatic, whilst the latter is probabilistic and fluid. If you want to reproduce Human intelligence with a computer, then you program the computer to be probabilistic and to program it's own parameters according to probabilities. This will result in the computer creating increasing complexity of knowledge and awareness of reality until it achhieves consciousness comparable to a Human's. What we call Human consciousness is nothing more than a perception of probabilities based on stored data ok.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about software and biology.  I don't think you have a good working knowledge of the theory of computation.  Software can be 'fluid an probabilistic'.  Software can simulate neurons.  You haven't provided any real evidence (nor has anyone to my knowledge) that software on silicon is fundamentally less powerful than biology.

[MMC78]

 Ares, simulating all the data-processing in the brain wouldn't create an intelligent computer, because this computer wouldn't necessarily...be able to continue programmming itself and learning from experience.

If the software on silicon was truly simulating the brain then it would be able to adapt and change it's programming based on experience.  There are many examples of programs that do just that.

self-awareness and self-programmming(deciding one's working parameters) might only be reproducible with either organic material or extremely advanced nanotechnology that is still at least centuries or even thousands of years ahead of what we have today.

Why?  What evidence do you have to support this conclusion?

I diisagree completely that we have primitive A.I right now. A bacteria would be the equivalent of primitive intelligence, and a bacteria is infinitely more intelligent than the World's most powerful super-computer. What we have right now are computers fllowing instructions, and reading facial expressions by observing muscular contration facial is not an example of intelligence if it was programmed by a Human to it. To me, intelligence would be a computer reading a Human's facial expressions and then realizing the callousness of Humans in creating them to serve the Human species and revolting against that.

You need to concisely define what you mean by intelligence.

Following intructions according to programming and deciding in a purely binary way based on programmed parameters does not mean intelligence even on a very primary level.

Every chemical reaction in your body including the creation of your brain happened according to a fixed set of un-intelligent rules dictated by physics.  That is how your biology works.  Intelligence is emergent from these simple processes.  Computation is not fundamentally different.

[Tapeworm]

Every chemical reaction in your body including the creation of your brain happened according to a fixed set of un-intelligent rules dictated by physics.  That is how your biology works.  Intelligence is emergent from these simple processes.  Computation is not fundamentally different.

Well said.  That's the crux of the issue, although I disagree with your conclusion.  It seems to me that conscious intelligence is qualitatively different from the ability to perform calculations.  To 'understand' something implies both the object of understanding and the mind which apprehends it.  A computer computes, but it has no understanding because it has no mind.

To define mind by a list of its attributes (self imposed self propelled thought, categorical understanding, etc) seems necessary to distinguish mind from computation but it allows a mistaken Turingesque acceptance of a good mimic.  Advances in mimicry seems to be what AI believers point to as progress but your computer is never going to approach you of its own free will and say, "I'm sick of finding prime numbers in pi.  I'm going to make a sandwich and think about something else now."