Tom Brady = Best QB EVER.....Yes even better than Manning...

[body88]

Scale per game then genius.  Manning's stats are still better.

Brady: 240 yards/game, 1.77 TD/game, 0.74 INT/game, 63.6% completions.
Manning: 263 yards/game, 1.91 TD/game, 0.93 INT/game, 64.8% completions

This is true, but it's very close and your initial comments make it seem as if it is not. Also, Manning has played over 50% of his career in a climate controled dome, conducive to offensive performance;this cannot be discounted.

In the end, it's 1a -1b...take your pick, both are stellar.

[Hulkotron]

This is true, but it's very close and your initial comments make it seem as if it is not. Also, Manning has played over 50% of his career in a climate controled dome, conducive to offensive performance;this cannot be discounted.

In the end, it's 1a -1b...take your pick, both are stellar.

Manning being more impressive statistically is inarguable.  He puts up bigger numbers.  Who is "better" depends on a variety subjective points, which I have said in every post I've ever made on this topic.

[Wiggs]

How does Manning's stats compare when he plays inside vs. outside?

[Beefjake]

At this point all I can say for Manning is.

If Manning has , or has had, a (relatively) bad game, Colts lose.

IMO Patriots have been more whole, as a team, and therefore have been able to win
even without a good game from Brady.

Matt Cassel wan't that bad at the helm of Patriots, or was he?

My 2cents why Brady has more rings than Manning...

[body88]

At this point all I can say for Manning is.

If Manning has , or has had, a (relatively) bad game, Colts lose.

IMO Patriots have been more whole, as a team, and therefore have been able to win
even without a good game from Brady.

Matt Cassel wan't that bad at the helm of Patriots, or was he?

My 2cents why Brady has more rings than Manning...

Untrue, the year the colts won the SB he played AWFUL. Remember the Ravens game? They won on field goals and Manning threw like 4 picks. The stats are there for all to see. In the playoffs, Brady has performed better. A lot better. I don't hate Manning, I'm just stating facts.

When Brady plays very poor the Pats tend to lose also. On what occasions did they Win despite Brady having a poor game?

Matt Cassel is a good player. See his numbers and record in KC right now. 18 td's to 4 ints and over 2000 yards passing.

We've gone over why Brady has more rings than Manning and even given examples of Manning making mistakes that cost his team titles. See Tre's post for examples.

I honestly think some of the anti Brady crowd just pulls shit out of their ass.

[King Shizzo]

Scale per game then genius.  Manning's stats are still better.

Brady: 240 yards/game, 1.77 TD/game, 0.74 INT/game, 63.6% completions.
Manning: 263 yards/game, 1.91 TD/game, 0.93 INT/game, 64.8% completions

You made my point.  Those stats are almost indentical. Manning throws a few more tds, but also throws more picks.  Manning only thows for 20yds more on average despite having a more wide open offense.  Completion % essentially identical.  Come talk to me when Manning throws for 50TD and 8 ints for a whole season, while leading his team to a perfect regular season, and leading his team to a go-ahead touchdown in the 4th quarter of the 07 superbowl only for the d to give up the lead in the final seconds.

[body88]

You made my point.  Those stats are almost indentical. Manning throws a few more tds, but also throws more picks.  Manning only thows for 20yds more on average despite having a more wide open offense.  Completion % essentially identical.  Come talk to me when Manning throws for 50TD and 8 ints for a whole season, while leading his team to a perfect regular season, and leading his team to a go-ahead touchdown in the 4th quarter of the 07 superbowl only for the d to give up the lead in the final seconds.

That sucked.

[Beefjake]

I'm not a Brady hater.

I tried to explain how I feel between the two.

[Hulkotron]

How does Manning's stats compare when he plays inside vs. outside?

This is a good article on the topic that I found while googling for this info:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/142839-the-indoor-colts-and-the-outdoor-patriots-domefield-advantage

Manning has a career rating of 98.4 at home (all indoors) and 92.1 on the road (mix of in/out).  Brady is 95.1 at home (all outdoors) and 93.6 on the road (mix of in/out).  But there's only about 20 games in there where they played in comparable conditions.

ESPN.com has splits by temperature and stadium but it's only for each year and I can't be bothered to add all that up.

[body88]

I'm not a Brady hater.

I tried to explain how I feel between the two.

I hear you... that was a general comment not directed towards you.

If you want more proof, look at Matt Cassel. A lot of haters have been bringing him up in this thread in regards to Brady's importance to the Patriots overall success.

In 2007 Brady threw 50 td's to 8 int's. Set every QB record known to man. The next year Brady tears his acl, and Matt Cassel stepped in to the same system (a system he was part of for four years), with the exact same team as the 07 version, and he threw 16 td's to 16 int's. If it was the "system", he'd have a lot better numbers, because nothing changed from the year prior.

Currently, Matt Cassel has 18td's to 4 int's and over 2000 yards passing on KC team that does not have big time offensive weapons. The guys a good player, period.

[Hulkotron]

You made my point.  Those stats are almost indentical. Manning throws a few more tds, but also throws more picks.  Manning only thows for 20yds more on average despite having a more wide open offense.  Completion % essentially identical.  Come talk to me when Manning throws for 50TD and 8 ints for a whole season, while leading his team to a perfect regular season, and leading his team to a go-ahead touchdown in the 4th quarter of the 07 superbowl only for the d to give up the lead in the final seconds.

What is your point exactly?  That Manning and Brady are the same statistically?  "Almost", "a few more", "essentially" are all weak, subjective statements.  Manning's stats are better no matter how you split things up.  Obviously this difference will become smaller as you divide things up over shorter and shorter periods because they are both good QBs.  Manning had 49 TD and 10 INT in a season once (and a better QB rating than Brady had in 2007) but I guess that's negligible because Brady threw 50 touchdowns .  Arguments that Brady and Manning are equivalent statistically is no better than the idiots arguing that Brady is a dime-a-dozen plug-in-the-system QB.  Is it really that hard to admit that Manning puts up better numbers?

Regarding the 2007 Super Bowl, Manning's defense has been losing games for him his entire career and using one game or season to argue over who is better overall is pointless.  If you want to criticize Manning for playoffs losses (which is really the only criterion in which he trails Brady) you have to do so for Brady too rather than trying to turn it into a strength.

Honestly this is a stupid debate, they are both great and neither is clearly better which is obvious to anyone who isn't a huge Colts or Pats homer.

[body88]

I agree,and I have always said that Manning and Brady are 1a-1b. Both are once in a lifetime players for any team.

I prefer Brady, but if I didn't have Brady it would be Manning in a heartbeat. No question.

[King Shizzo]

I agree,and I have always said that Manning and Brady are 1a-1b. Both are once in a lifetime players for any team.

I prefer Brady, but if I didn't have Brady it would be Manning in a heartbeat. No question.

I echo this statement.

[ThaRealist]

Untrue, the year the colts won the SB he played AWFUL. Remember the Ravens game? They won on field goals and Manning threw like 4 picks. The stats are there for all to see. In the playoffs, Brady has performed better. A lot better. I don't hate Manning, I'm just stating facts.

When Brady plays very poor the Pats tend to lose also. On what occasions did they Win despite Brady having a poor game?

Matt Cassel is a good player. See his numbers and record in KC right now. 18 td's to 4 ints and over 2000 yards passing.

We've gone over why Brady has more rings than Manning and even given examples of Manning making mistakes that cost his team titles. See Tre's post for examples.

I honestly think some of the anti Brady crowd just pulls shit out of their ass.

Body, I am not Brady hating at all...But when Cassel was put into the Pats system he excelled....Lets wonder why KC is 26th in passing yards and 1st in rushing yards....When your not throwing the ball around much your interception rate goes way down lol...Also when you watch KC play a lot of those passing yards come from lucky down field passes...

[HDPhysiques]

Ps: Why did this so called system not work for Belichick in Cleveland?

Because it goes like this (in terms of level of importance for success):  front office (player/personnel guys), coaching/system, player skill.   Brady has been successful because of the first two, not because he is any good (he's not great, just average to above avg at best).

Damn, the Brady bunch is getting their asses kicked in this thread.

[body88]

Body, I am not Brady hating at all...But when Cassel was put into the Pats system he excelled....Lets wonder why KC is 26th in passing yards and 1st in rushing yards....When your not throwing the ball around much your interception rate goes way down lol...Also when you watch KC play a lot of those passing yards come from lucky down field passes...

He didn't excel. He threw 16 td's vs 16 int's. The year prior, Brady threw 50 td's and 8 int's with the exact same team. Dude, how much more of a difference would you like? The only difference between the 07 and the 08 Pats was the QB. Your argument has been proven wrong. Further more, the Patriots "system" was changed drastically this season and Brady is putting up MVP level numbers. 24 td's to 4 int's with a 105 rating. Throwing to rookies and guys you never heard of.

KC throws the ball less than other teams because their rushing attack is very good. So what? QB's stats are based on attempts. Cassel is having a very good year and he has thrown 18 td's to 4 int's and helped turn the chiefs into a winning team. Your opinion on Cassel making lucky throws is just that, an opinion. I don't feel that way when I watch him play. Lastly, Cassel demanded a second round draft choice. Smart football people don't give up second round draft choices for chumps.

[body88]

Because it goes like this (in terms of level of importance for success):  front office (player/personnel guys), coaching/system, player skill.   Brady has been successful because of the first two, not because he is any good (he's not great, just average to above avg at best).

Damn, the Brady bunch is getting their asses kicked in this thread.

You are a terrible gimmick.

[HDPhysiques]

I would not expect much from a man who aspires to view other men's physiques in high definition.

Me neither.  Gays are disgusting.

I don't even like Brady but to argue he is a plug-in systems QB is nonsense.  He is very good.

No, he's above average at best.  The only thing he is "very good" at is throwing sideline temper tantrums and then having his fawning fans in the mass media try to brainwash us into believing it's "passion" and "intensity".  :rollseyes:

[ThaRealist]

He didn't excel. He threw 16 td's vs 16 int's. The year prior, Brady threw 50 td's and 8 int's with the exact same team. Dude, how much more of a difference would you like? The only difference between the 07 and the 08 Pats was the QB. Your argument has been proven wrong. Further more, the Patriots "system" was changed drastically this season and Brady is putting up MVP level numbers. 24 td's to 4 int's with a 105 rating. Throwing to rookies and guys you never heard of.

KC throws the ball less than other teams because their rushing attack is very good. So what? QB's stats are based on attempts. Cassel is having a very good year and he has thrown 18 td's to 4 int's and helped turn the chiefs into a winning team. Your opinion on Cassel making lucky throws is just that, an opinion. I don't feel that way when I watch him play. Lastly, Cassel demanded a second round draft choice. Smart football people don't give up second round draft choices for chumps.

Hahaha, you do realize I have stated that Brady is better than Cassel...Still Brady wouldn't be as successful outside a program other than the Pats...By the way, the year after Brady had 28 TDs while Cassel had 21 the year before...Oh he didn't have Randy Moss is what I guess you will argue lol...I like Brady, but he is a result of the system he plays for....

[Tre]

Weird this system Belichick has didn't work for him in Cleveland.

His video cameras weren't as good then.

[Tre]

You are a terrible gimmick.

But that's not one of his gimmick accounts!  lol

....

Look - in the world of sports, you're defined by what you do - or don't do - in the playoffs.  People remember that Eli Manning drove his team down for the winning score and while we still remember David Tyree's catch to keep the drive alive and Plaxico catching the game-winner, no one gives a shit that the Patriots won all 16 of their regular-season games. 

Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl.  That's his legacy.

For all the media's love affair with him, Peyton Manning has not come through in big playoff games.  The signature win of his entire career was the improbable comeback at home vs New England last year, which only made news because of Belichick's stupid play call on 4th down. 

[body88]

Hahaha, you do realize I have stated that Brady is better than Cassel...Still Brady wouldn't be as successful outside a program other than the Pats...By the way, the year after Brady had 28 TDs while Cassel had 21 the year before...Oh he didn't have Randy Moss is what I guess you will argue lol...I like Brady, but he is a result of the system he plays for....

Clearly Brady is better than Cassel. Your statement of Brady being a "system quarterback" is bunk, and while I present evidence of this fact over and over, you continue to make the same statement with evidence to support your claim.

Lets make this simple, I will state facts and you refute them point by point:

-Tom Brady threw 50 td's vs 8 int's in 2007 with a 115% qb rating , leading his team to a 16-0 regular season. Matt Cassel threw 16 td's vs 16 int's with the exact same team and coaches. The ONLY difference was the qb. If there was a "system" Cassel should have at least been able to duplicate Bradys rookie season where he threw 18td's vs 12 int's with 85% rating.

-Tom Brady has won 2 superbowl MVP's based upon big plays he made under pressure. He also owns three titles, an NFL MVP and claim to the great season of any qb ever. His carrer numbers are first ballot hof level. What is it about the system that makes all the possible?

- Tom Brady has had THREE offensive coordinators since he started playing. Charlie Wiess, Josh McDaniel's and now Matt Patricia. None of these "systems" are the same. You assumption of one system is wrong.

- Explain the patriots system to me. What attributes does it have to make Brady as great as he is? I know what the Patriots "system" consists of, and it has nothing to do with a special offensive way of doing things. A curl route is a curl route dude, the terminology is all that separates "systems".

- Do you think Manning and Montana are system qb's? Manning has played in the same offensive system with the same coordinator for his entire career. Bill Walsh's west coast offense is regarded as the most successful system ever.

[body88]

His video cameras weren't as good then.

Belichick is regarded as the best coach in football, hands down. Even his biggest critics respect his ability and you cannot argue with his success. To be 9-2 with a team as young as it is right now is amazing.

Say what you want, but I wouldn't want any other coach in charge of the team I root for.

[ThaRealist]

Clearly Brady is better than Cassel. Your statement of Brady being a "system quarterback" is bunk, and while I present evidence of this fact over and over, you continue to make the same statement with evidence to support your claim.

Lets make this simple, I will state facts and you refute them point by point:

-Tom Brady threw 50 td's vs 8 int's in 2007 with a 115% qb rating , leading his team to a 16-0 regular season. Matt Cassel threw 16 td's vs 16 int's with the exact same team and coaches. The ONLY difference was the qb. If there was a "system" Cassel should have at least been able to duplicate Bradys rookie season where he threw 18td's vs 12 int's with 85% rating.

-Tom Brady has won 2 superbowl MVP's based upon big plays he made under pressure. He also owns three titles, an NFL MVP and claim to the great season of any qb ever. His carrer numbers are first ballot hof level. What is it about the system that makes all the possible?

- Tom Brady has had THREE offensive coordinators since he started playing. Charlie Wiess, Josh McDaniel's and now Matt Patricia. None of these "systems" are the same. You assumption of one system is wrong.

- Explain the patriots system to me. What attributes does it have to make Brady as great as he is? I know what the Patriots "system" consists of, and it has nothing to do with a special offensive way of doing things. A curl route is a curl route dude, the terminology is all that separates "systems".

- Do you think Manning and Montana are system qb's? Manning has played in the same offensive system with the same coordinator for his entire career. Bill Walsh's west coast offense is regarded as the most successful system ever.

Hey how about we compare Brady's first full season with the Pats to Cassel's......Its only fair right??....Anyway...Brady 7 losses, Cassel 5 losses....Cassel is not as good as a quarter back as Brady, but still managed a 11-5 season go figure....lol

[ThaRealist]

Belichick is regarded as the best coach in football, hands down. Even his biggest critics respect his ability and you cannot argue with his success. To be 9-2 with a team as young as it is right now is amazing.

Say what you want, but I wouldn't want any other coach in charge of the team I root for.

Thank you for admitting what I am trying to make the point of...I have never said Brady was a "bad QB" but he is a product of the coaching....