Steve Reeve's weight guidlines Natty. Gh15, accurate?

[NarcissisticDeity]

I said he was a drug pig because that is what he was. early in his career he experimented but later on it went beyond experimentation (after he stopped competing and got older).

You sound like him 

Reeves 100% natural if you have proof to the contrary I'll entertain it 

the fucking guy was 6'1" and 215lbs , if he was 6'1" and 240lbs back in the 40s then one might raise an eyebrow but he wasn't even exceptionally big for his time , Park was 225lbs

[slaveboy1980]

Ziegler was the first to use testosterone in this country , this was before Dianbol and it was deemed useless at that time , this can be proven , prove to me test was available and used in the 1940s for strength athletes , don't give me stories and an all encompassing ' it was available ' default excuse

Performance enhancing drugs in strength athletes in the United States started with Doctor John Ziegler in late 1954 early 1955 years AFTER Reeves retired , to claim he had access to an experimental drug and used it before Ziegler is just bullshit , I deal in facts and anyone claiming to predate Ziegler , Ciba and Hoffman and York better put up of shut up.

I don't need to prove shit to you and we both know you just googled and copy and pasted that shit.  

I already know the story of ziegler and his experimentation , so no need to preach to the choir. I read about it long ago.

doctors were prescribing testosterone back in the 40s so you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

[slaveboy1980]

I would also like to point out that i never limited my argument to reeves competitive years. so don't put words in my mouth.

[Dokey111]

Reeves got the secret alien nazi anabolics when he was in the Phillippeans.  They saved him from malaria.  He mixed them with his gelatine and they created everything, if you look at pictures of Reeves when he was younger he looks like an emaciated pee wee herman.

[slaveboy1980]

You sound like him 

Reeves 100% natural if you have proof to the contrary I'll entertain it 

the fucking guy was 6'1" and 215lbs , if he was 6'1" and 240lbs back in the 40s then one might raise an eyebrow but he wasn't even exceptionally big for his time , Park was 225lbs

the argument goes beyond his bodyweight. it's obvious you don't understand the mentality of bodybuilders.

[Voice of Doom]

Just reinforces what I already knew...time to lose 10 pounds....

[NarcissisticDeity]

I don't need to prove shit to you and we both know you just googled and copy and pasted that shit.  

I already know the story of ziegler and his experimentation , so no need to preach to the choir. I read about it long ago.

doctors were prescribing testosterone back in the 40s so you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Thanks for proving you can't back up your claims 

I didn't google that shit either I knew that shit for a long time now. like I said put up or shut up and your response? doctors were prescribing test back in the 40s , your word isn't proof , there is a reference about test esters in strength & health in 1938 it means shit

what matters is who started using test in the United States for strength athletes and I found NO ONE until Ziegler , read up about York and Bill March there is detailed evidence that proves they were the first ones , not vague reference and bullshit claims

[gh15]

narcsist,, i told you you going to bring out my hyenas lol and you did,,actually this slaveboy is teaching you a lesson ,,he actually argument well and with 2-3 posts made you look like a newbe which ...you are,,bercause you have no experience with hormones,,hormones do not mean size only ,,some fellas take hormones inroder to maintain size when dieting ,,some take it for strength ,,some take it for body composition ,,some take it to LOSE WEIGHT,,it depends on many variables,,but to be honest with you ,,you gotta save your pride and crowl back into the hole you came from because this is a losing arguments,,

you want to belieev in heros,,wake up my friend,,its 2010 wake up,,the heros are not bodybuilders lol

gh15 approved

[First Blood]

you've done a lot of reading on the scene back in the 40-50s? then you'd know anabolics weren't even created until the 1956 years AFTER Reeves retired , and they weren't even used on bodybuilders at first , they were used on weightlifters , the earliest references to bodybuilders using steroids I've seen is 1960 , do yourself a favor and keep reading and not gh15s posts either that's not proof

one of the books I read on the subject is called testosterone dreams. it states that testosterone was used in the 1940s so bodybuilders could definately also get their hands on it.

[JP_RC]

GH15 you are so full of shit.  5 - 6% BF you are out of your mind.

You know what they say about liars, the curse of being a liar is that you can never believe anyone.  Too bad for you GH.

gh15 already posted he is a pathological liar....its hard to believe what someone says after they claim that.

[First Blood]

here is some more info about the book I mentioned:

http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/article/testosterone_dreams

Testosterone became a charismatic drug during the 1940s because it promised sexual stimulation and renewed energy. Physicians described the optimal effect of testosterone drugs as a feeling of “well-being,” a term that has been used many times since the 1940s to characterize their positive effect on mood. In the early 1940s testosterone was hailed in pharmaceutical advertising as a mood-altering drug whose primary purpose was the sexual restoration and reenergizing of aging males. It appeared at that time that an inexpensive supply, widespread demand, and favorable medical opinion would soon produce a major market for testosterone products.

The first public advocate of testosterone therapy for aging men was the popular science journalist Paul de Kruif, whose manifesto The Male Hormone was published with some fanfare in 1945. Excerpted in Reader’s Digest and promoted by a full-page review in Newsweek (“Hormones for He-Men”), The Male Hormone was in some respects a prophetic book. The potential market for a rejuvenating male hormone seemed to be enormous: “How many millions of American males, not the men they used to be, would flock to the physicians and the druggist, a bit shame-faced and surreptitious, maybe, but hopeful, murmuring: ‘Doc, how about some of this new male hormone?’”

Testosterone did not become a mass market drug in the 1940s due to the sexual conservatism of most American physicians and the society they served. The belief that testosterone was a stimulating drug made it a potential threat to sexual morality as well as a promising therapy. Sensational coverage had given the male hormone a quasi-pornographic image that its female counterpart estrogen had never acquired. Commenting on testosterone’s unsavory reputation in 1946, Science Digest reported that “the uninformed continue to believe that the sole use of this innocent chemical is to turn sexual weaklings into wolves, and octogenarians into sexual athletes.”

The 1940s also saw the use of testosterone therapy as an experimental “cure” for homosexuality. The medical view of homosexuality as a type of endocrine deficiency made the use of testosterone propionate to reverse homosexual orientation virtually predictable. As one physician in 1940 put it: “If homosexuality is merely the result of an endocrine disturbance, the prospect for its cure must be excellent today.”

The idea that the bodies of homosexuals contained less male hormone and more female hormone than those of heterosexuals first appeared in 1935. By 1940 a number of investigators were confident enough in their ability to assay hormone levels to claim that homosexuality was rooted in abnormal sex hormone ratios rather than the psychological complexes hypothesized by Freud and others. “It seems,” one research team wrote, “that the constitutional homosexual has a different sex hormone chemistry than the normal male.” The fallacy of this therapeutic rationale became evident soon enough. Testosterone propionate combined with chorionic gonadotropin was not curing homosexuals, even in studies that encouraged belief in the drug and did not compare its effects with those of a placebo. In fact, it was becoming increasingly clear that androgens did not reverse but actually intensified homosexual libido, so that “sometimes instead of helping one gets a worsening of the condition.”

Prescription for women?
Testosterone drugs were also the favored pharmacological technique of the 1940s for treating sexual “frigidity” in women. Testosterone propionate ointment could be applied to the vulva or clitoris to increase genital sensitivity. Testosterone could be injected or pellets implanted under the skin to intensify libido. By 1943 testosterone propionate was reported to be in widespread use to treat women with sexual and other endocrine disorders

[JP_RC]

narcist ,,if you could see reality and back off the computer and be balanced which you are not lol you woudl see that it is you that is looking like nuts lol every one here and anywhere will tel you im right ,,there are seriosu bodybuilder here that will tell you to yoru face gh15 is right because i am ,,there is no proof persay and no reduction of anything,,today guys use insulin and say they are natural ,,today guys use test say they are natural,,steve reeves experiemented with testosterona like i always said ,,never changed my mind ,,its just how it was,,

sorry your hero is reduced to reality infront of your face,,i cant control your mental problems  my friend

gh15 approved

As far as I remember Lee Priest and Milos think you're full of shit and some people over at MD that know about this also thought you were full of it when you were posting with your "nordic" gimmick.
I'll wait for your list of pro bodybuilders and 'gurus' that agree with you.

[JOHN MATRIX]

never seen that one before. guy was a fucking genetic marvel

[NarcissisticDeity]

one of the books I read on the subject is called testosterone dreams. it states that testosterone was used in the 1940s so bodybuilders could definately also get their hands on it.

There you go , test was used in the 40s so therefore bodybuilders could get it , YOU drawing your own conclusions. I can prove to you Ziegler started using test on strength athletes see the difference?

again there is a brief reference to testosterone esthers in Strength & Health magazine in 1938 , this means what? guys were using? that's not evidence that wishful thinking

[NarcissisticDeity]

here is some more info about the book I mentioned:

http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/article/testosterone_dreams

And the part where competitive bodybuilders using it? where Reeves got it , how much he used , what it did for him ? I mean this proves nothing to many people want him so badly to be on drugs and I don't get it

The history of testosterone in strength athletes in the United States begins with Ziegler in 1954 , I've yet to read of anyone who predates this anyone who claims otherwise is just full of shit.

[First Blood]

There you go , test was used in the 40s so therefore bodybuilders could get it , YOU drawing your own conclusions. I can prove to you Ziegler started using test on strength athletes see the difference?

again there is a brief reference to testosterone esthers in Strength & Health magazine in 1938 , this means what? guys were using? that's not evidence that wishful thinking

but that is what I have been saying all the time? I never claimed I had hard evidence that reeves took testosterone during the 40s. I don't believe anyone does. It just my opinion and does make sense to me. maybe not to you, but it does to me and obviously others too.

but what I did show you that testosterone was around in the 40s, you claimed that ziegler was first with experimenting with the stuff and that is incorrect.

[NarcissisticDeity]

narcsist,, i told you you going to bring out my hyenas lol and you did,,actually this slaveboy is teaching you a lesson ,,he actually argument well and with 2-3 posts made you look like a newbe which ...you are,,bercause you have no experience with hormones,,hormones do not mean size only ,,some fellas take hormones inroder to maintain size when dieting ,,some take it for strength ,,some take it for body composition ,,some take it to LOSE WEIGHT,,it depends on many variables,,but to be honest with you ,,you gotta save your pride and crowl back into the hole you came from because this is a losing arguments,,

you want to belieev in heros,,wake up my friend,,its 2010 wake up,,the heros are not bodybuilders lol

gh15 approved

Again there is NO argument just a bunch of morons claiming to have information they can't possibly have. You and him both , claiming Reeves was 5% bodyfat and on test , test tablets and insulin in the 1940s LMFAO the only lesson you and him are teaching me if how stupid you are. well you did that a long time ago and he's outed himself now

[gh15]

As far as I remember Lee Priest and Milos think you're full of shit and some people over at MD that know about this also thought you were full of it when you were posting with your "nordic" gimmick.
I'll wait for your list of pro bodybuilders and 'gurus' that agree with you.

lee and i hate eachother with passion,,he is a liar the worst in history of bodybuilkding one of the worst,,and mishko...well mishko talk for himself with his action of arrested every monday and friday he go with the flow btu he very well know im right,, who the fuck is nodic? gimik? do you think i hav etime to get gimicks my friend ,,if i had a dime for how many times every one immitate me proclaimingto be me trying to get in touch with me ,,trying to ask for my advice ,,and trying to say gh15 send me or said so,, id be even richer than what i am now,,

the reality of things is the any professional face to face if really know you will tell you gh15 is the real deal ,,and reason im anonimous is because my life would be at risk otherwise,,there is no friend in bodybuilding you need ot know it,,absolitly no friend,,there are a lot of fellons though...

gh15 approved

[gh15]

Again there is NO argument just a bunch of morons claiming to have information they can't possibly have. You and him both , claiming Reeves was 5% bodyfat and on test , test tablets and insulin in the 1940s LMFAO the only lesson you and him are teaching me if how stupid you are. well you did that a long time ago and he's outed himself now

atleast your answweer are shorter now thanks god lol

[NarcissisticDeity]

but that is what I have been saying all the time? I never claimed I had hard evidence that reeves took testosterone during the 40s. I don't believe anyone does. It just my opinion and does make sense to me. maybe not to you, but it does to me and obviously others too.

but what I did show you that testosterone was around in the 40s, you claimed that ziegler was first with experimenting with the stuff and that is incorrect.

I know no one has any evidence but gh15 is trying to pass off his opinion as fact , which is laughable. it makes NO sense to me because he doesn't fit the timeline and what we do know about athletes and drugs

you didn't show me testosterone was around in the 40s and it was used in strength athletes not in the least , keep trying on that one.


This is what we do know , no speculation , no vague references , no internet personas empty claims

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections. By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes only, before that time. De Kruif himself made no connection between testosterone and possible athletic applications - his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to improve the vitality and health of aging men and those with specific conditions.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to testosterone, and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before this - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was using it for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

For these reasons it can be stated with some certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using testosterone or steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he competed at 214 pounds when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, he weighed 215 when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.

[dj181]

Someone made the point that there is a huge difference between 10% and 7%, and that is a very true statement. And as I said before Reeves wasn't sitting at no 10%, try 6-7%

[First Blood]

I know no one has any evidence but gh15 is trying to pass off his opinion as fact , which is laughable. it makes NO sense to me because he doesn't fit the timeline and what we do know about athletes and drugs

you didn't show me testosterone was around in the 40s and it was used in strength athletes not in the least , keep trying on that one.


This is what we do know , no speculation , no vague references , no internet personas empty claims

I already read that, I believe over at ironage.us.

I get the feeling anything I dig up you will dismiss. I did most definately show you a source that testosterone was around in the 40s. you claimed it wasn't so you were wrong about that no matter how you try to twist things. I didn't claim I could show that testosterone was used by strength athletes in the 40s (you made that up), I did claim it was around in the 40s and it was.

and I never claimed that I had proof that reeves used, so your argumentation is very dishonest.

please don't lump together the arguments of different people.

edit: I also know that there were clinics in europe were you could get testosterone during the 40s.

[First Blood]

to summarize:

was testosterone around in the 40s : yes
did strength athletes use it (in the 40s): I can't prove they did but I believe so.
did reeves use it: I can't prove that he did but I believe so.

this was my last post in this thread.   

[el numero uno]

Gh15 use "lol" a lot lately

[NarcissisticDeity]

to summarize:

was testosterone around in the 40s : yes
did strength athletes use it (in the 40s): I can't prove they did but I believe so.
did reeves use it: I can't prove that he did but I believe so.

this was my last post in this thread.   

to summarize: did you prove anything? NO are you basing any of your beliefs on facts? NO