Author Topic: Are companies that move their production overseas traitors? (Read 4663 times)

whork25 · « **on:** February 09, 2011, 04:46:17 AM »

If they fire the american workers and move their production to China/India/whatever arent they traitors in some way to the US?

They make a communist (in Chinas case) country richer and the US poorer and weaker all for personal gain. And they are already rich so its not like they have to.

Your take on this?

loco · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2011, 04:59:35 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 04:46:17 AM

If they fire the american workers and move their production to China/India/whatever arent they traitors in some way to the US?

They make a communist (in Chinas case) country richer and the US poorer and weaker all for personal gain. And they are already rich so its not like they have to.

Your take on this?

It's tricky. Do you want freedom to do whatever you want with your business? How much freedom do you want? Should the government step in and tell you what to do and what not to do with your business?

American consumers demand low cost products, jobs and freedom too. How do you balance these? They want their cake and they want to eat it too.

whork25 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:03:12 AM »

No easy answer thats for sure

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:11:54 AM »

Thanks to the enviros, law suits, work rules, mountains of regs, growing cost of compliance, etc, doing buisness in this country is becoming impossible for all but the banks, intl firms wh push paper, fast food, etc.

Slapper · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:15:35 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 04:46:17 AM

If they fire the american workers and move their production to China/India/whatever arent they traitors in some way to the US?

They make a communist (in Chinas case) country richer and the US poorer and weaker all for personal gain. And they are already rich so its not like they have to.

Your take on this?

YES!

If you fire American workers and give those jobs to the Chinese you are indeed an economic traitor.

whork25 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:20:14 AM »

Quote from: 333386 on February 09, 2011, 05:11:54 AM

Thanks to the enviros, law suits, work rules, mountains of regs, growing cost of compliance, etc, doing buisness in this country is becoming impossible for all but the banks, intl firms wh push paper, fast food, etc.

Thats simplifying things isnt it?

A lot of companies made plenty of cash in the US, decided to make even more by moving production to the East helping others economy to grow. Thereby making american workers out of work and moving money and production out of the US causing a lot of the problems we have today.

They sold out plain and simple

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:24:42 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 05:20:14 AM

Thats simplifying things isnt it?

A lot of companies made plenty of cash in the US, decided to make even more by moving production to the East helping others economy to grow. Thereby making american workers out of work and moving money and production out of the US causing a lot of the problems we have today.

They sold out plain and simple

Its not as simple as that. Businesses are not pinatas to be whacked by do gooders and their grand schemes of health care,welfare, etc. Business is in business to make money, not be an employment agency.

The fact is that it is not attractive to produce many things here. And its not just money, its the costs of law suits, regulatory compliance, byzantine tax laws requiring armies of accountants, EPA, SHA, DOE, state agencies, departmnents of labor busting balls all the time, bizarre UE rules, growing health care costs, growing energy costs, growing rents, leases, etc.

GigantorX · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:27:13 AM »

Business will move their production/capital etc along the path of least resistance

The businesses aren't the traitors, the traitors are the idiots in D.C. and state governments who have never held a real job, never started a business and never have had to worry about making payroll that are the traitors. Why would the bureaucrats actively make laws, regulations, taxes, fees, paperwork, wild litigation, tax rates and other roadblocks
so that businesses of all sizes (esp. small businesses) actively have to seek to other places to go to, cut payroll, off shore production etc to be able to survive and have a margin that allows them to grow and expand? They\se idiots in D.C. and elsewhere do the things and than have the gall to come after businesses who off shore and expand to other countries.

Why would our public servants, who are supposed to be acting in our best interests, do such things?

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:29:17 AM »

Short answer: yes

Long answer: it isn't that simple, 33 covered a lot of topics well... essentially though, American citizens need to understand that the tradeoff right now for keeping jobs in the US is that they will pay more for goods than if they are shipped overseas. So many Americans complain about "jobs going overseas" yet the single factor they consider when purchasing is almost always price.

whork25 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:32:43 AM »

Good answers everybody

How would you feel if the law mandated that certain goods should be produced in the US in order to sell them in the US?

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:35:57 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 05:32:43 AM

Good answers everybody

How would you feel if the law mandated that certain goods should be produced in the US in order to sell them in the US?

That gets tricky because you are essentially treating business' differently depending on their products, which they already are in many respects. But I don't really favor that, unless it was a very, very limited scope. Any particular goods you are thinking of?

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #11 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:36:50 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on February 09, 2011, 05:29:17 AM

Short answer: yes

Long answer: it isn't that simple, 33 covered a lot of topics well... essentially though, American citizens need to understand that the tradeoff right now for keeping jobs in the US is that they will pay more for goods than if they are shipped overseas. So many Americans complain about "jobs going overseas" yet the single factor they consider when purchasing is almost always price.

Yes, but so long as we keep giving bj's to the chinks for them to buy our debt to finance our ponzi scheme govt deficits, we will continually be flooded with cheap crap.

The govt is the problem here, not the businesses. Do I want domestic production of everything possible? YES! I want factories, drilling, industrial growth, oil exploration, refineries, coal plants, nuke plants, etc.

Hoever, that will never happen so long as we have the current govt we do.

The other problem is that the level of taxation as a whole, and in that i include the compliance and mandate cost imbedded in the cost of goods, is outrageous. $10 parking ticet is now $45, health insurance that used to be $285 a month in now $500 a month, gas that was $2 a gallon is now $3.50 a gallon, propertytaxes that were $2k a year are now 6k a year. so after all is said and done, people have to resort to these cheap crap goods because otherwise, they would not be able to afford anythig at all.

The govt is causing this, not the other way around. You want to solve this, shut the govt down for about 3 years, end class action law suits, get rid of the epa, doe, dol, allow massive coal, oil, ans nuke expansion, etc..

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:37:51 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 05:32:43 AM

Good answers everybody

How would you feel if the law mandated that certain goods should be produced in the US in order to sell them in the US?

No! That is not an answer, but a band aid.

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:45:54 AM »

Another thing - when you hear constant talk of the following:

1. Card check
2. Cap & Trade
3. ObamaCare
4. Food and energy price Inflation due to insane spending by the govt.
5. Local property taxes kyrocketing to fund govt workers' crazy benefits
6. No tort reform
7. No class action lawsuit reform
8. Highest Corporate Income Tax rate in the world.
9. Fed Gov Agencies like the EPA and DOE coming up with insane regs on an almost daly basis.
10. Govt does nothing at the WTO against other countries pirating everything ad maniuplating their currencies to undermine our businesses.

etc etc - what responsible business person is going to produce products in this country and open themselves up to such potential liabilty?

Answer - no one. That is why the economy still sucks, and will suck for long as the eye can see.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #14 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:46:11 AM »

Quote from: 333386 on February 09, 2011, 05:36:50 AM

Yes, but so long as we keep giving bj's to the chinks for them to buy our debt to finance our ponzi scheme govt deficits, we will continually be flooded with cheap crap.

The govt is the problem here, not the businesses. Do I want domestic production of everything possible? YES! I want factories, drilling, industrial growth, oil exploration, refineries, coal plants, nuke plants, etc.

Hoever, that will never happen so long as we have the current govt we do.

The other problem is that the level of taxation as a whole, and in that i include the compliance and mandate cost imbedded in the cost of goods, is outrageous. $10 parking ticet is now $45, health insurance that used to be $285 a month in now $500 a month, gas that was $2 a gallon is now $3.50 a gallon, propertytaxes that were $2k a year are now 6k a year. so after all is said and done, people have to resort to these cheap crap goods because otherwise, they would not be able to afford anythig at all.

The govt is causing this, not the other way around. You want to solve this, shut the govt down for about 3 years, end class action law suits, get rid of the epa, doe, dol, allow massive coal, oil, ans nuke expansion, etc..

I agree with everything you are saying, but I also feel the public is partially to blame. If they would simply suck it up and quit buying SO MUCH of the shit, it would cause companies to rethink their attitudes. I know they can't completly stop, for the reasons you stated, but they can certainly try to discriminate based on where goods are produced, quality, etc.... instead of always the cheapest.

Example: I saw it almost every single day in the fitness industry for 8 yrs. A couple of companies we carried were exclusively made in the US, much better quality and a higher price. People would flat out say, they didn't care if it was produced in the US and buy the cheaper model. Granted some of the reasons the US models were highers are the reasons you listed. But the public has to be held accountable in small part too.

whork25 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:48:36 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on February 09, 2011, 05:35:57 AM

That gets tricky because you are essentially treating business' differently depending on their products, which they already are in many respects. But I don't really favor that, unless it was a very, very limited scope. Any particular goods you are thinking of?

I was thinking of products we already manufacture should be made in the US to be sold in the US. Some products we dont manufacture should not be included of course

loco · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:51:15 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on February 09, 2011, 05:46:11 AM

I agree with everything you are saying, but I also feel the public is partially to blame. If they would simply suck it up and quit buying SO MUCH of the shit, it would cause companies to rethink their attitudes. I know they can't completly stop, for the reasons you stated, but they can certainly try to discriminate based on where goods are produced, quality, etc.... instead of always the cheapest.

Example: I saw it almost every single day in the fitness industry for 8 yrs. A couple of companies we carried were exclusively made in the US, much better quality and a higher price. People would flat out say, they didn't care if it was produced in the US and buy the cheaper model. Granted some of the reasons the US models were highers are the reasons you listed. But the public has to be held accountable in small part too.

I agree! No matter what the government does or does not do, manufacturing products overseas will always be cheaper. The public will always buy the cheapest product, and they don't even care if it took child labor and slave labor to produce it. It's sad, but true. Recent history shows that most people will do the wrong thing most of the time.

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:52:35 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on February 09, 2011, 05:46:11 AM

I agree with everything you are saying, but I also feel the public is partially to blame. If they would simply suck it up and quit buying SO MUCH of the shit, it would cause companies to rethink their attitudes. I know they can't completly stop, for the reasons you stated, but they can certainly try to discriminate based on where goods are produced, quality, etc.... instead of always the cheapest.

Example: I saw it almost every single day in the fitness industry for 8 yrs. A couple of companies we carried were exclusively made in the US, much better quality and a higher price. People would flat out say, they didn't care if it was produced in the US and buy the cheaper model. Granted some of the reasons the US models were highers are the reasons you listed. But the public has to be held accountable in small part too.

I agree, that is where the public needs to be better educated on these issues, however, my guess is that is as likely to occur as my winning the lottery.

The Showstoppa · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:53:58 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 05:48:36 AM

I was thinking of products we already manufacture should be made in the US to be sold in the US. Some products we dont manufacture should not be included of course

gotcha. I think as long as we deregulate and take some of the financial/taxation burden off of the US companies, it could work fine. Allow business' to be more competitive, and with each other, not some labor pool in SE Asia where people make $100 a yr..... they will never be able to compete with that and maintain the standard of living we currently enjoy.

Think about this. I wonder how many foreign countries have the personal storage facilities that we do where people can store their accumulated shit? We've bought into the "gotta have this to be happy/success" to such a large degree that we are often buying and keeping shit that we will never use and PAYING to store it !!! $:-\$

whork25 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2011, 05:58:53 AM »

Quote from: The Showstoppa on February 09, 2011, 05:53:58 AM

gotcha. I think as long as we deregulate and take some of the financial/taxation burden off of the US companies, it could work fine. Allow business' to be more competitive, and with each other, not some labor pool in SE Asia where people make $100 a yr..... they will never be able to compete with that and maintain the standard of living we currently enjoy.

Think about this. I wonder how many foreign countries have the personal storage facilities that we do where people can store their accumulated shit? We've bought into the "gotta have this to be happy/success" to such a large degree that we are often buying and keeping shit that we will never use and PAYING to store it !!! $:-\$

I agree completely. Making it easier for companies is one part of the coin labor cost is another

Slapper · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:37:37 AM »

Quote from: loco on February 09, 2011, 05:51:15 AM

I agree! No matter what the government does or does not do, manufacturing products overseas will always be cheaper. The public will always buy the cheapest product, and they don't even care if it took child labor and slave labor to produce it.[...]

Yes, but that's not the job of the public, that's the job of the American companies outsourcing their manufacturing to these Third World countries. These companies have the duty to make sure their products are produced in an ethical manner. For example, if you go overseas on vacation, let's say to Thailand, and find out that the local custom is to molest women on the bus... you, as an American tourist, know better, hence you do not such a thing.

And this is what makes these outsourcing waves the more mindbogglingly irritating, because when you extrapolate similar situations to the business world all the ethics and humanity take a backseat to profit. It's like the new wild west. And you know that the majority of Americans are so blindly faithfull to whatever their media outlets tell them that if it doesn't show up on Dateline it ain't happening. And Dateline is surely NOT going to show it to you. Hence it ain't happening. It's a vicious circle.

whork25 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2011, 06:59:10 AM »

Thank you

Some times i think big companies have it easy. They move production overseas fucking over the workers and tax payers and its always the government who gets the blame because they make it hard on the companies.

I agree that some of the stuff the government is mandating towards small companies are just plain stupid but these companies we are talking about are already filthy rich.

Soul Crusher · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2011, 07:22:09 AM »

Like I said, our govt is to blame for this mess, not business.

OzmO · « **Reply #23 on:** February 09, 2011, 07:56:06 AM »

No, otherwise we wouldn't have a free enterprise system in the USA.

If our government wanted to keep business in the US, they should increase taxes for those companies who ship jobs overseas and provide real incentives for those who stay. But that will be a cold day in hell. Lol

Slapper · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2011, 08:01:01 AM »

Quote from: whork25 on February 09, 2011, 06:59:10 AM

Thank you

Some times i think big companies have it easy. They move production overseas fucking over the workers and tax payers and its always the government who gets the blame because they make it hard on the companies.

I agree that some of the stuff the government is mandating towards small companies are just plain stupid but these companies we are talking about are already filthy rich.

Well, the government is to blame because they are supposed to intercede on behalf of the American People. They don't. That's why they get the blame. We all know that Big Business, regardless of country, time period, or any other circumstance, WILL ALWAYS act agains The People because there will be a day in which they have to choose between profit and persons, and profit always wins.

So, when it comes to Big Business, their game will always be to complain about being overtaxed, that way any debate about the subject will ALWAYS start from there. Does it matter that Big Business is not overtaxed? Nope. 'Cause it ain't on Dateline! Americans are so simple minded that they do not understand that 95% of the information that gets fed to them is really propaganda. Nothing else.

Does American Big Business pay more in taxes than Big Business in Chile or France or China? Yes, but that's because their profits are THAT much bigger. So, if you make 100 units of profit and pay out 30 in taxes is STILL much fucking better than making 30 units of profit and paying 9 units in taxes. The reason? You do the math!

To all the "patriots" who are in favor of shipping jobs to China: Sell your shit in China!