stimulate, dont annihilate!!! key to training success

[magicuser]

pics of transformation using your methods?

high volume seems key

despite elfves gold of HIT

[Vince B]

It pleases me that there are so many world authorities on Getbig. What can I say?

[dj181]

Ok, but you still didn't answer my question Vince. By the way, these ideas that I have about the methods for a naturals hyperthory are not my ideas and/or theroies, they are the ideas/theroies of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer, regarding volume, intensity, and frequency.

[WillGrant]

The flotsam here wouldn't know the correct theory because they already have their pet theories. Cleansing the brains of the simple-minded is no easy task. 

Clearly the Op has no clue about hypertrophy and neither do most of the blokes here.

most of the blokes here are disagreeing with him to 

[Vince B]

Ok, but you still didn't answer my question Vince. By the way, these ideas that I have about the methods for a naturals hyperthory are not my ideas and/or theroies, they are the ideas/theroies of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer, regarding volume, intensity, and frequency.

Both Mike and Arthur were highly intelligent blokes. Arthur was not a bodybuilder. Mike embraced HIT after he was already big. I think HIT can be used to retain large muscles but it is hard on the joints.

Arthur got it wrong about volume. Don't forget he was primarily a salesman and had his Nautilus machines to sell. In the 1970s he put long ads in Ironman Magazine. Sometimes those ads were like a mini booklet. It all made sense according to Jones' logic. Unfortunately, he was wrong about the requirements of hypertrophy. So was Mike. Neither was a good scientist. Arthur actually rejected most scientists in exercise science.

About going to failure. I don't mean in the extreme sense that Arthur suggested where no possible movement can be performed. I mean in the sense that you go until you can't do any more reps. Then repeat that weight for many more sets all going to the point of failure. This is what will stimulate hypertrophy. Keep the reps higher both to get a pump and to keep the form better. If you start out at 15 reps then by the 3rd maximum set you might be down to 9 or 10 reps. If you go heavy and use about 5 reps your form will suffer and you will start cheating by recruiting other muscles to help you complete your reps.

This will work for naturals. You have to eat a lot to gain muscle.

[Palpatine Q]

Genetics determines the size of your muscles, not the way you train

[lovemonkey]

Funny how Basil likes to talk bad about cocky and confident people when he himself comes across as the most arrogant douche in this thread. Pot meet kettle.

[local hero]

the role genetics play is true upto a point... if your a very messy or lazy trainer youl never reach potential tho

[Vince B]

Funny how Basile likes to talk bad about cocky and confident people when he himself comes across as the most arrogant douche in this thread. Pot meet kettle.

I try to help misguided and ignorant people. If knuckleheads think they are right then they need help and correcting and should be grateful.

[dj181]

Ok Vince, so you are saying that hyperthropy happens as the result of both training til failure and performing a high volume of sets right? I don't know man, but if I tried something like that I am certain that it would just make me smaller and weaker. I believe that Mentzer had it right when he introduced his "Ideal Routine" in his book Heavy Duty 2: Mind and Body. This routine is basically an Upper/Lower split with workouts being performed every 4 or 5 days.

[Vince B]

Ok Vince, so you are saying that hyperthropy happens as the result of both training til failure and performing a high volume of sets right? I don't know man, but if I tried something like that I am certain that it would just make me smaller and weaker. I believe that Mentzer had it right when he introduced his "Ideal Routine" in his book Heavy Duty 2: Mind and Body. This routine is basically an Upper/Lower split with workouts being performed every 4 or 5 days.

I am talking about causing hypertrophy in a muscle, not training the whole body. That is where most fail. If you try to do too much your system will somehow prevent you from continuing such activities. So what I suggest is to do parts of the body and get them to grow. Muscles adjoining the target muscles will get stimulated and your whole upper body, for example, will grow. Try close grip pulldowns to the top of the chest alternated with lying triceps extension with upper arms on pads. Do this routine every third day for a couple of weeks and see how you go. You don't do anything else in the gym. Once you know how to make your muscles grow and keep them growing you can apply these methods to other muscle groups. If you honestly don't grow and you are eating plenty of food then take up swimming or table tennis.

If you follow this protocol you will grow and grow rapidly. If you are not growing rapidly then something is wrong with your training or you are not eating enough. You have to get your muscles sore after each workout. This is the key.  Finding effective exercises is not that easy. Sometimes exercises work up to a point then are ineffective and have to be replaced. This is where experience helps.

[kiwiol]

Basile is spot on. If you are on drugs, you're going to grow as long as you lift something, with the people with better genetics making more gains than others who aren't so "gifted".

If you are natural, then you have to train to failure and sometimes, beyond, by way of drop sets, negatives etc. I've always trained to failure and done drop sets on most exercises, and have got great results over the years. You just have to make sure you eat and rest enough/properly in between workouts.

[oldtimer1]

Failure should be a tool in your arsenal but not the primary one.  If you have 10,20 or 30 years training under your belt should you try to hit failure every set?

Imagine a coach telling his runners, We will run three miles every Monday.  I want you to beat that time from the week before every time or die trying.  Tuesday it's 8 x 400 meters.  Again I want you to beat  last weeks time and so on for the rest of the week.  Maybe this could be a viable option the month before competition but for a training year?

Going to failure all the time is a proper method for a beginner or a guy with a few years of training under his belt.  After that it's a tool that should be used periodically or in certain cycles.  What power lifter or Olympic lifter trains to failure at every workout?  I'll answer that, none.

[ForgottenMuscle]

Use FullBody workouts only.
Use mostly compound exercises.
Keep the length of each workout within one hour.
Think outside the sets and reps regimen.
Use as strict form as possible.
Positive part of the movement slow/medium speed, eccentric part fast/medium fast without bouncing at the bottom part.
Instead concentrate on feeling the mechanical load on the muscle itself.
Stay just within point of concentric failure.Do not go all out.
Focus on creating deep muscle microtrauma.

Increase the load each and every workout.
Before starting a training period, decondition all muscles as much as possible. Relax, stay in bed.
End the trainingcycle when the progression of the mechanical load becomes too heavy to complete under strict form.
Continue with the maximum weight for continued static stretches under load, for as long as can possibly be endured.

Working out every 36 hours is optimal.
One can train through musclesoreness of previous workout(s) without hindering further muscular hypertrophy.

Do not perform cardio or other physical activities.

Eat each 3 hour period a small balanced meal,high protein, medium fat, medium in slow carb,
Before and after workout, high in fast protein and carb sources.Total daily calories just above maintenance.
Bodybuilding is a longterm commitment in order to get the results desired.

[Vince B]

Basile is spot on. If you are on drugs, you're going to grow as long as you lift something, with the people with better genetics making more gains than others who aren't so "gifted".

If you are natural, then you have to train to failure and sometimes, beyond, by way of drop sets, negatives etc. I've always trained to failure and done drop sets on most exercises, and have got great results over the years. You just have to make sure you eat and rest enough/properly in between workouts.

There are many strategies to stimulate hypertrophy. However, I believe doing many sets with the maximum resistance is the key. There is no need to do drop sets. Never reduce the resistance. Take a short rest and keep training with the same weight. Growth will follow.

Arthur Jones made a lot of sense in the old days. He influenced everyone because no one wanted to be thought stupid for training too long. I probably stopped too soon and that prevented me from growing really big. By stopping too soon I mean in the number of sets with the maximum resistance. 5, 6 or 10 sets is what is required.

[dj181]

So what about Mentzer's idea of regulating volume and frequency downword as one progresses in order to properly eliminate "sticking points" and to make continous and unabated progress? According to him, one should make progress and make gains every single workout, and if one doesn't make progress every single workout than this is a clear indication that something is wrong with their training routine.

[no one]

Genetics determines the size of your muscles, not the way you train

i dont agree completely, but dont completely disagree either- i think both play a significant role.

my shoulders used to be my worst body part. they lagged behind everything else. i made it a priority to bring them up, started training them a variety of ways till i found a routine that made them grow- turns out they like high volume/ high reps. now they are caught up with the rest of my body and still growing well.

had i not made the effort to discover this, i could have just as easily though i just have bad genetics for building shoulders.

[kiwiol]

There are many strategies to stimulate hypertrophy. However, I believe doing many sets with the maximum resistance is the key. There is no need to do drop sets. Never reduce the resistance. Take a short rest and keep training with the same weight. Growth will follow.

Arthur Jones made a lot of sense in the old days. He influenced everyone because no one wanted to be thought stupid for training too long. I probably stopped too soon and that prevented me from growing really big. By stopping too soon I mean in the number of sets with the maximum resistance. 5, 6 or 10 sets is what is required.

I agree there is no need to do drop sets. In fact, I wasn't right when I said you HAVE to train to failure if you're natural. But that's what I do and it's always given me great results.

"Many sets with maximum resistance is the key" - Absolutely.

[Vince B]

So what about Mentzer's idea of regulating volume and frequency downword as one progresses in order to properly eliminate "sticking points" and to make continous and unabated progress? According to him, one should make progress and make gains every single workout, and if one doesn't make progress every single workout than this is a clear indication that something is wrong with their training routine.

Mentzer pushed Heavy Duty because he made money from it. The HIT is false and it is a pity. Some people swear by it but I have given it a good go and know it can't sustain hypertrophy. Yes, gains will occur every workout with my method. I don't wait for a muscle to recover. Instead, I keep it growing continuously. Volume will remain high and frequency stays the same. Every 3rd day without exception. You should be getting stronger, too, and that is the progressive part.

If you want to argue hypertrophy instead of growing then continue believing what Mentzer said.

[YoungBlood]

Failure has it's place in your training program(s). But like anything, do not use it too often or too frequently.

Regarding hypertrophy and what will stimulate your muscles to grow and whether or not you use drop sets, failure or any other host of techniques depends on your amount of training volume, how often you train, sleep/recovery, amount of food and of course the old adage "genetics."

Sometimes people use genetics as a cop out. If they don't know what they're doing or something is not working for them, they just say "I guess my genetics suck, I've tried everything! And I mean everything." You then ask them 'What's everything entail?' and they can't tell you or it's far from actually being everything. To them "everything" means either high reps or low reps. Nothing in between.

Muscles respond to Time Under Tension & this is a good way to be able to things consistent enough and be able to later alter your program. Using a specific rep range with a prescribed tempo will give you an approximate idea as to how much time your muscle is under tension. 10rps at a 301 tempo will make the set 40secs long (10 reps multiplied by 4secs per rep). So because you don't go to failure, you won't grow? That is what some here are dictating. The other people are saying you have to make sure you're failing around that 40 second mark in order to grow. What if I did 9 reps equaling 36secs total, but threw in a last failure rep that caused me to only do 37secs total...I must not grow because I went to failure (according to TBombz). Or will I? According to Basile I need failure.

What works? Neither and both!

Instead of saying you tried "everything" and you are still failing to progress in the way you would like, take a look at your program more in depth. Sure, you're lifting 20lbs more on a lift yet still not growing. Maybe you're not growing because even if you're getting 8-10rps (the usual protocol suggested to grow/induce hypertrophy) yet completing that set within 15-20secs, that's why you're not growing. Muscles usually need more than 20-25secs under tension to induce hypertrophy.

[dj181]

From my own personal experience, every single time that I got stronger (ie training with a heavier training load) my muscles got bigger, every single time. Now, when you talk about rep speed that is indeed an important point, and I have tried controlled rep speed (3 sec up, 3 sec down) but it didn't work for me, and I madd much better progress doing fast reps.

[Meso_z]

I train by feel.

If i feel like i can do some forced reps, or negatives or drop sets etc etc etc..i just do it, if not I just do a straight set 1-2 reps shy of failure.

thats it. shock your body.

[FREAKgeek]

Going to failure needs to be specified better. Not all failure is the same.

Reaching failure for a 1 rep, 5 rep, 10 rep, or 20+ rep scheme are all a bit metabolically different. Failure is also more taxing
on a compound vs isolation type of exercise. It depends on the nature of the exercise and scheme.

Failure can also just be a result of taking less rest time.

To say that it is all bad, or always bad is just not applicable for all methods.

[YoungBlood]

From my own personal experience, every single time that I got stronger (ie training with a heavier training load) my muscles got bigger, every single time. Now, when you talk about rep speed that is indeed an important point, and I have tried controlled rep speed (3 sec up, 3 sec down) but it didn't work for me, and I madd much better progress doing fast reps.

I would then look at your program before and after you tried controlled reps. If you were doing super fast reps before, then switched to controlled reps and then back to fast reps, you probably did see a better improvement with faster reps.

And as found on a regular basis, sometimes peoples goals change as fast as their program does; they say fast reps worked for them, but they also wanted to put 50lbs on their bench too. So because they did faster reps and put weight on like they wanted, they think fast reps are better. But if they had done controlled reps totaling a minutes time per set, and wanted to grow their arms bigger, would they really have the same stance?

My answer would be no.

[dj181]

I see your point, and as far as my fast reps were concerned, I would venture to say that they weren't incredibly fast reps ie weight throwing, since they were performed within a 6 to 8 rep max context, meaning that they were quite heavy for me. So if one lifts an 6 to 8 rep max til postive failure, then those reps can not be super fast by nature, since one will be lifting a heavyass weight. One thing that could be valid is to do the negative portion of the lift more slowly, and then explode through the positive part? There is a guy called spade121981 on youtube, and he makes some very good points regarding a slow and controlled negative coupled with a fast and explosive positive.