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Author Topic: Crystal Cathedral: sign a statement God intends sex only 4 married heterosexuals  (Read 3614 times)
doison
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2011, 12:02:14 AM »

Crystal Cathedral sex covenant stirs controversy
Choir members at the Crystal Cathedral have been asked to sign a statement that God intends sex only for married heterosexuals.
By Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times

The Crystal Cathedral church in Garden Grove is involved in another controversy, this time over a covenant that choir members were asked to sign stating that God intends sex to be between married heterosexuals.

"Crystal Cathedral ministries believes that it is important to teach and model the biblical view," reads the paragraph in the Crystal Cathedral Worship Choir and Worship Team Covenant that has raised the ire of some choir members. "I understand that Crystal Cathedral Ministries teaches that sexual intimacy is intended by God to only be within the bonds of marriage, between one man and one woman."

In a statement Tuesday, Senior Pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman said the covenant is meant to clarify expectations placed on choir members as ministry leaders. But she also offered an apology.

"The church of Jesus Christ at large is grappling with the challenge of reconciling love and adherence to God's word, even those passages that challenge us," she said. "As the church has been engaging in this sensitive dialogue, people that we care for deeply have been hurt. We are sincerelly sorry."

On Wednesday, church founder Robert H. Schuller said he strongly disapproved of the covenant because it goes against what he has built his church upon.

"I have a reputation worldwide of being tolerant of all people and their views," he told the Orange County Register. "I'm too well-educated to criticize a certain religion or group of people for what they believe in. It's called freedom."

The covenant issue is the latest woe for the embattled church, which filed for bankruptcy protection in October. Financial documents related to the bankruptcy case have revealed that relatives and insiders at the church have received hefty payouts and tax allowances.

"In my opinion, I keep thinking that they've made as many mistakes as they can make and they've sank as low as they can sink — and behold, they sink lower," said Don Neuen, who directed the choir for 10 years but resigned in July after Programming Director Gretchen Schuller Penner said she was going to make sure each person was "spiritually and emotionally fit."

He said he believed that meant excluding those who were gay as well as heterosexuals living together out of wedlock.


"I think it's absolutely horrible. It's the antithesis of what Christianity should be," Neuen said. "We should be reaching out and embracing and showing love to all people who are peaceful."

Mindy Kim, a former choir member, said the covenant is an example of how new leadership is eroding the church.

Kim, who sang in the choir for 10 years, said she wouldn't have signed the document.

"The thought of signing it wouldn't even enter into my head," she said. "I would leave."

Church spokesman John Charles said the covenant was not meant to exclude anyone. "We're asking people to follow the teachings of Christianity, and this is what we believe," he said. "We take the biblical view."

"I think [choir members] are taking it as anti-gay when that is not the full intent," he said. "It's anyone who has a promiscuous lifestyle."

Stellar rack on that broad. 
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Butterbean
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2011, 06:31:47 AM »

Remember to whom you are replying.  One that knows the faith you profess and will compare it to your answer(s). 


lol Oh no, I hope I don't get "pwned!"



So what's it all about, Alfie?  No...Really.  What does this article mean to you as a genuine follower of the Christ? 

I've already posted it twice.

You really need me to post it again?

**** that noise.








 Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 06:46:48 PM »

lol Oh no, I hope I don't get "pwned!"



I've already posted it twice.

You really need me to post it again?

**** that noise.








 Cheesy

Sweeeeeeeeet.   Grin Grin Here, let me help you out by "cleaning" it up a bit.  Intercourse that noise.

How's that work for you?  And just so you know its really me, intercourse islam.   Wink Later.
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 06:36:52 AM »

Sweeeeeeeeet.   Grin Grin Here, let me help you out by "cleaning" it up a bit.  Intercourse that noise.


lol  Grin  Tried to think of a way to customize it, including the "Reeves" name..but couldn't think of anything clever.
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« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2011, 06:35:07 AM »

Rev. Robert H. Schuller voted off Crystal Cathedral board

The Rev. Robert H. Schuller has been ousted from the board of directors at the Crystal Cathedral, the Orange County megachurch he built into a televised empire after getting his start preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater, his son said Sunday night.

Schuller, 84, stepped down from the pulpit five years ago and had long before ceded day-to-day control of the Garden Grove ministry, largely to his children and other relatives.

There were conflicting reports about what had taken place between Schuller and the board members. But Robert Anthony Schuller said his father was ousted because he had proposed adding new members to the board, which he described as blighted by conflicts of interest.

"My father wanted to add board members, and they didn't want that because they would lose control," said the younger Schuller, who was himself voted off the board three years ago. "They kicked him off. ... I feel bad for him because he's had to watch his life's work go down the toilet the last three years."

The elder Schuller, who had been a non-voting but influential member of the board with the title chairman emeritus, could not be reached for comment.

Jim Coleman, president of Crystal Cathedral and the husband of Robert H. Schuller’s daughter, declined to comment when reached by telephone Sunday night. His wife, Sheila Schuller Coleman, took control of the church more than two years ago, marking a family schism that has dogged the ministry, culminating in its bankruptcy.

Several longtime church members and officials said Sunday that they found Robert H. Schuller’s departure from the board startling -- and an unsettling reminder that the church’s leadership and finances are in chaos.

"It’s an unusual thing," said Jim Case, a former board member who also confirmed Schuller’s ouster. "It surprises me." He said the board’s decision was part of an ongoing "power grab."

Dory Bauler, 82, of Laguna Woods, has been a church member since 1972. She called the news of Schuller's departure, "the most heartbreaking thing in the world."


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« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 05:27:04 AM »

Rev. Robert H. Schuller voted off Crystal Cathedral board

The Rev. Robert H. Schuller has been ousted from the board of directors at the Crystal Cathedral, the Orange County megachurch he built into a televised empire after getting his start preaching from the roof of a drive-in theater, his son said Sunday night.

Schuller, 84, stepped down from the pulpit five years ago and had long before ceded day-to-day control of the Garden Grove ministry, largely to his children and other relatives.

There were conflicting reports about what had taken place between Schuller and the board members. But Robert Anthony Schuller said his father was ousted because he had proposed adding new members to the board, which he described as blighted by conflicts of interest.

"My father wanted to add board members, and they didn't want that because they would lose control," said the younger Schuller, who was himself voted off the board three years ago. "They kicked him off. ... I feel bad for him because he's had to watch his life's work go down the toilet the last three years."

The elder Schuller, who had been a non-voting but influential member of the board with the title chairman emeritus, could not be reached for comment.

Jim Coleman, president of Crystal Cathedral and the husband of Robert H. Schuller’s daughter, declined to comment when reached by telephone Sunday night. His wife, Sheila Schuller Coleman, took control of the church more than two years ago, marking a family schism that has dogged the ministry, culminating in its bankruptcy.

Several longtime church members and officials said Sunday that they found Robert H. Schuller’s departure from the board startling -- and an unsettling reminder that the church’s leadership and finances are in chaos.

"It’s an unusual thing," said Jim Case, a former board member who also confirmed Schuller’s ouster. "It surprises me." He said the board’s decision was part of an ongoing "power grab."

Dory Bauler, 82, of Laguna Woods, has been a church member since 1972. She called the news of Schuller's departure, "the most heartbreaking thing in the world."

How do you get booted from your own church?
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chadstallion
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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2011, 06:07:37 AM »

after Fred Swann left as organist it has gone down hill, musically speaking.
and it has a world famous pipe organ....what a waste.
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 11:15:52 PM »

Robert H. Schuller, wife resign from Crystal Cathedral board
The action stems from a breakdown in talks over financial claims against the church that the Schullers filed in Bankruptcy Court. For the first time in its history, there is no Schuller on the board.
By Nicole Santa Cruz and Howard Blume, Los Angeles Times

Embroiled in a legal dispute with the church he founded, Robert H. Schuller and his wife have resigned from the international board of the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove.

The resignations are a result of a breakdown in negotiations over financial claims against the church that the Schullers filed in Bankruptcy Court.

Schuller; his wife, Arvella; their daughter Carol Schuller Milner; and her husband, Timothy Milner, allege that the church owes them money for copyright infringement, intellectual property violations and unpaid contracts.

"We cannot continue to serve on the board in what has become an adversarial and negative atmosphere especially since it now seems that it will not be ending any time soon," Arvella Schuller said in a statement Saturday.

Sorting through competing financial claims has delayed $12.5 million in payments to some church creditors and could threaten the church's ability to continue its ministries, including the "Hour of Power" broadcasts.

The Schullers' resignation marks the end of an era. For the first time, no family member is serving on the board of the church that Robert Schuller founded 42 years ago.

The financially ailing church sold the Crystal Cathedral campus to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange in February for $57.5 million. Payment to creditors was expected this spring, but because some claims are for unknown amounts and the Milners and Schullers have not agreed to establish a payment reserve, vendors cannot be paid until those amounts are determined by the court, said Nanette Sanders, attorney for the creditors.

The Schuller family insisted Saturday that they did not want to delay payments to creditors. They blamed the current church leadership for halting discussions.

The family received word Tuesday that there would be no further negotiations, Carol Schuller Milner said.

"This could be a long deal," she said in an interview Saturday. "That's why we feel bad for the creditors too."

"We've been hoping there was another way," Schuller Milner said. "It will continue to be a long and probably painful time."

She added that her parents were "baffled" by the breakdown in talks.

A spokesman for the church was not immediately available to respond, but its board has generally sided with the committee of creditors, which has filed objections to the Schuller and Milner claims.

The creditors committee has alleged that the church ministry, of which family members are a part, has borrowed money from an endowment fund and continued to receive generous salaries and perks even as the church struggled financially.


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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 08:51:38 AM »

Schuller, family to be paid a fraction of millions they sought
The court gives the family slightly less than $700,000. The daughter of the Crystal Cathedral founder describes the ruling on intellectual property, copyright infringement and contract violations as a 'travesty.'
By Nicole Santa Cruz, Los Angeles Times

Robert H. Schuller — the founder of Crystal Cathedral and the face of the globally watched "Hour of Power" television program — and his family will be paid just a fraction of the millions they sought from the preacher's bankrupt ministry.

Schuller's daughter, Carol Milner, described Monday's ruling on intellectual property, copyright infringement and contract violations as a "travesty" that leaves the family no choice but to "start liquidating everything."

"It's an avoidance of responsibility for an organization to not take care of those who have gone before them. It's tragic," she said. "But sometimes tragedies speak louder than other stories."

Schuller alone had sought $5 million, and additional claims from the family — some that did not state specific amounts — would have pushed the family's demand far higher. The court gave the family slightly less than $700,000.

The ruling marks a final chapter in the financial unraveling of a ministry that once made Schuller a powerhouse in American Christianity.

The bankruptcy was "long and painful for everyone involved, and our congregation is ready to move on," said John Charles, the chief executive of Crystal Cathedral.

The ministry, which is now estranged from Schuller and has struggled to fill collection plates, will vacate the glass-panned cathedral in Garden Grove next summer and hold services in a Catholic church.

Monday's ruling out of Los Angeles bankruptcy court also clears the way for Crystal Cathedral's remaining creditors — some of them small-time vendors who helped stage the church's opulent Christmas and Easter services — to collect on more than $12 million they claim they are owed by the Garden Grove-based ministry.

Because of the Schuller family claims, creditors were delayed payments. Now the creditors could be paid off before the end of the year, said Nannette Sanders, an attorney who worked on the case.

"It's the result we had hoped for," Sanders said.

Other creditors chose not to wait for the closure of the 2010 bankruptcy, and some — such as the Riverside County business that provided the camels, donkeys and sheep for the church's Christmas pageant — have sold their claims to firms that purchase debt.

Wes Lassen, a contractor from Running Springs who is owed about $2,100 for services he performed three years ago, said the money will help him "substantially."

"It might actually keep me in business another year," he said.

The ruling cut short a10-day trial focused on unpaid contracts and copyright infringement claims filed by Schuller, his wife, Arbela, his daughter and his son-in-law.

Judge Robert N. Kwa wrote that Schuller will receive about $600,000 because he failed to prove that intellectual property and copyright violations took place. Less than $100,000 will be divided by other family members.

As attorneys read the lengthy ruling in court Monday, Schuller and his wife held hands and waited silently.

In the 55-page ruling, Kwa referenced Schuller's testimony earlier this month in which the pastor, 86, said that the Crystal Cathedral never infringed on his intellectual property rights. Schuller appeared to not remember when he founded the "Hour of Power" and also said he was still on the board of directors for the Crystal Cathedral.

The ministry, once known for its showy services and uplifting sermons, filed for bankruptcy protection in 2010, citing $50 million in debt.

The claims led to Schuller and his wife's resignation from the ministry's board of directors. Within days, his daughter, then the senior pastor, left the church to start her own ministry, effectively severing all ties that the founding family had to the church.

"We love the Schullers and wish them well," Charles said.
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2012, 09:29:27 AM »

Adam and Eve wasn't married
and they only had sons
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2012, 11:33:01 AM »

their magnificent pipe organ is worth more than that, alone. Plus their music library.
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2012, 11:45:36 AM »

and they only had sons

Gen 5:3-5

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.



PIP Reeves
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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2012, 12:20:16 PM »

Gen 5:3-5

When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.



PIP Reeves

ok I did not know that, so who was Seths mother?
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2012, 02:08:20 PM »

ok I did not know that, so who was Seths mother?

Eve

Gen 4:25
Adam made love to his wife again and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”

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« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2012, 02:35:20 PM »

Eve
Gen 4:25
Adam made love to his wife again and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.”

thanks for that, again i didnt know that but
so Adam and Eve started out having two sons, one killed the other so they (adam and eve) copulated again to aquire another son. Im still trying to make the jump to the next generation ... can you enlighten me further because  its centuries yet before imaculate conception and virgin birth become available ?
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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2012, 02:48:22 PM »

thanks for that, again i didnt know that but
so Adam and Eve started out having two sons, one killed the other so they (adam and eve) copulated again to aquire another son. Im still trying to make the jump to the next generation ... can you enlighten me further because  its centuries yet before imaculate conception and virgin birth become available ?

I think this is what you mean?:

Through Mary's lineage:

Luke 3:23-38
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse,

the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,

the son of Salmon,[d] the son of Nahshon,

33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]

the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob,

the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,

the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu,

the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,

the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan,

the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,

the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,

the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.





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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2012, 02:51:49 PM »

Through Joseph's lineage starting w/Abraham (I think Matthew was written to the Jews so it was important to show them the Messiah came from Abraham):

Matthew1:1-17
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

4 Ram the father of Amminadab,

Amminadab the father of Nahshon,

Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

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« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2012, 03:11:32 PM »

and they only had sons


actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race
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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2012, 08:01:03 AM »


actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race

please.
it's a biblical story.
the point isn't to be literal.
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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2012, 08:10:02 AM »

please.
it's a biblical story.
the point isn't to be literal.

perhaps but so many people quote it as literal when it suits their opinion
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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2012, 11:54:29 AM »


actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race


Their sisters.
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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2012, 12:26:45 PM »

Their sisters.

thank you
incest the game all the family can play with Gods blessing ?
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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2012, 01:42:33 PM »

Through Joseph's lineage starting w/Abraham (I think Matthew was written to the Jews so it was important to show them the Messiah came from Abraham):
Matthew1:1-17
This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

4 Ram the father of Amminadab,

Amminadab the father of Nahshon,

Nahshon the father of Salmon,

5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,

Obed the father of Jesse,

6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.



From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)?  

Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?
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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2012, 02:05:50 PM »

From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)? 

Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?

I just finished a book that addresses everything you note here.  It was midway through the book so I'll locate the passage and post it here....thx!!
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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2012, 09:08:27 PM »

Homosexuality is against the natural order of things.  Animals may try and fuck each other in the wild, but animals are stupid.

I see. It's against the natural order of things, but when animals do it that doesn't prove your statement wrong. It just proves that animals are "stupid." Roll Eyes


Oh wait, by association, homosexuals must be stupid too.

Well, they do talk with that funny lisp. So clearly!  Roll Eyes


Two men cannot make a baby together.  Neither can two women.  It takes two of the opposite sex, retard.  That is nature, that is natural.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You are asserting that the only legitimate use of sex is procreation, and it should be used only for that purpose. Right? So if a woman has her ovaries removed because of cancer, no sex for her. If a man has a vasectomy or has his testicles removed because of cancer, no sex for him. After all, a woman without ovaries can't conceive, and a many without testicles can't impregnate a woman.

Why isn't sex for the sake of sex (i.e. for the pleasure derived from it) acceptable in your view?


Homosexuality is despised by all the major faiths/religions of the world, even the Dali Lama is against it.

And your point is?


Me?  I'm an atheist, and I find homosexuality in men or women to be disgusting and against the natural order of things. 

Why are you giving us your opinion on the subject? Why should we care what some random idiot posting online thinks about sex in general and homosexuality in particular? 


I don't believe in a God, gods, goddesses or a heaven and hell, but I do know that men fucking each other in the ass is disgusting and does not produce children.

OK, and? Why is your lack of belief in deities, heaven and hell relevant? Who cares what you find icky? Who cares what does or doesn't produce children? Why do you care about what other men do with their cock and where they deposit their sperm?


Neither will a strap-on pounding between two women make babies.

Well now, let's not be hasty. That might work. They could dip the strap-on in a cup of man-juice from their friendly neighborhood sperm bank before the pounding.


You are such a nellie.

That sounds just like what I'd expect a nellie to say. Are you sure you aren't frustrated because your various holes aren't getting the attention they so sorely need? (pun intended)
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