MLB talk.

[Grape Ape]

    according to all determining factors he's a shoe in. black ink 42 out of 40 for avg hof er/ gray ink 205 out of 185. hof mon 171 out of 100. only  hof stan. does he fall a little short 46 out of 50. in his top 10 most like,  2 are in the hof don drysdale and dazzy vance and pedro martinez should be a shoein hofer.

I looked at the black ink/grey ink and saw that.  Schilling gets high marks on the black because of leading the league in wins twice, leading in IP, and CG a couple times too.  I don't know though.   He will probably get votes from the Boston Media Machine anyway, just like how they pushed in Rice.

[funk51]

compare him to this guy. who deserves it more? he loses badly in black ink.

[Grape Ape]

compare him to this guy. who deserves it more? he loses badly in black ink.

Wasn't black ink made up by Bill James?   I wonder if any writers actually use it.

[funk51]

Wasn't black ink made up by Bill James?   I wonder if any writers actually use it.

not reaklly sure but ut's a good measure for peak performance as it marks the best in league for that year. i have his book it's a good read discussing baseballs HOF

[2ND COMING]

Braun wins his appeal???

[funk51]

Braun wins his appeal???

i heard he had to take some kind of medication to combat herpes, which caused the positive test. he was too embarrassed to tell anyone at the time. true?? who knows.

[Grape Ape]

Sounds like a technicality.

[Princess L]

Braun wins his appeal???

Sounds like a technicality.

An MLB arbitrator upheld Braun’s appeal of a 50 game suspension for a banned substance. MLB's executive vice president declares that baseball “vehemently disagrees with the decision of the arbitrator"

Do I believe he's guilty?  ABSOLUTELY NO.  There are a couple of questions I have.  First of all, WTH could cause a testosterone reading so absurdly high?  From what I heard, the elevated level was so high that even if he was on test, the number couldn't have possibly been that high.  How long between taking a sample and actually doing the test is acceptable for results to be accurate (given the sample was handled properly)?  The sample was taken on a Saturday.  The "courier" was supposed to immediately ship it FedEx.  Instead, he took the sample home because he said the FedEx office was closed.  So the test wasn't even administered until at least Monday or Tuesday  

So, did he get off on a "technicality"?  Yes.  But there are A LOT of other questions that need answering.

[2ND COMING]

Do I believe he's guilty?  ABSOLUTELY NO.

good one , sugar tits.

[Doug_Steele]

good one , sugar tits.

 

[Grape Ape]

good one , sugar tits.

Yeah, I literally  type a response to that four times this weekend, but didn't feel like getting into it.

[2ND COMING]

Yeah, I literally  type a response to that four times this weekend, but didn't feel like getting into it.

She either:

A: lives in wisconsin

B. has a thing for ryan braun
 
C. both?

[Grape Ape]

Or it was a typo.  I'm going with Wisconsin.

[Princess L]

good one , sugar tits.

Yeah, I literally  type a response to that four times this weekend, but didn't feel like getting into it.

Or it was a typo.  I'm going with Wisconsin.

So explain this to me:

First of all, WTH could cause a testosterone reading so absurdly high?  From what I heard, the elevated level was so high that even if he was on test, the number couldn't have possibly been that high.  How long between taking a sample and actually doing the test is acceptable for results to be accurate (given the sample was handled properly)?  The sample was taken on a Saturday.  The "courier" was supposed to immediately ship it FedEx.  Instead, he took the sample home because he said the FedEx office was closed.  So the test wasn't even administered until at least Monday or Tuesday 

He didn’t gain a single pound.  He literally didn’t get 1/10th of a second faster. His workouts have been virtually the exact same for six years. He didn’t get 1% stronger. He didn’t have any additional power or any additional arm strength. All that is documented.

[Grape Ape]

So explain this to me:

First of all, WTH could cause a testosterone reading so absurdly high?  From what I heard, the elevated level was so high that even if he was on test, the number couldn't have possibly been that high.  

Victor Conte stated that his T/E ratios were 20-1.  Others were as high as 80/1.   Have you seen it confirmed anywhere what his actual T/E level was, or are you drawing your conclusion based heresy?   Has MLB stated the results?  I don't even think they can under the collective bargaining agreement.

How long between taking a sample and actually doing the test is acceptable for results to be accurate (given the sample was handled properly)?  The sample was taken on a Saturday.  The "courier" was supposed to immediately ship it FedEx.  Instead, he took the sample home because he said the FedEx office was closed.  So the test wasn't even administered until at least Monday or Tuesday  

Would this delay cause a spike in T levels?  The collector didn't compromise the results.. The seals and specimen were intact when they arrived at the testing center. There is absolutely nothing about the entire process that would put the results into question.   The only possible explanation that would exonerate Braun is that the sample was tampered with. It has been stated that the triple sealed vial was not tampered with and it would be almost impossible to unseal and reseal. The collector testified that he had the sample in his possession the entire weekend and at no point did Braun argue the actual results or claim that the sample was tampered with.

He didn’t gain a single pound.  He literally didn’t get 1/10th of a second faster. His workouts have been virtually the exact same for six years. He didn’t get 1% stronger. He didn’t have any additional power or any additional arm strength. All that is documented. [/color]

So, by your words, Brauns been working out for six years, and hasn't gotten any stronger or faster?   He needs to fire his trainer, or hire one.

[Princess L]

Victor Conte stated that his T/E ratios were 20-1.  Others were as high as 80/1.   Have you seen it confirmed anywhere what his actual T/E level was, or are you drawing your conclusion based heresy?   Has MLB stated the results?  I don't even think they can under the collective bargaining agreement.

Not sure where Conte is getting his info.  20-1  80-1  
I'm only basing it on what Braun has said which is: The test came back 3X higher than any test test ever conducted.

Would this delay cause a spike in T levels?  The collector didn't compromise the results.. The seals and specimen were intact when they arrived at the testing center. There is absolutely nothing about the entire process that would put the results into question.   The only possible explanation that would exonerate Braun is that the sample was tampered with. It has been stated that the triple sealed vial was not tampered with and it would be almost impossible to unseal and reseal. The collector testified that he had the sample in his possession the entire weekend and at no point did Braun argue the actual results or claim that the sample was tampered with.

Not arguing the sample was tampered with.

So, by your words, Brauns been working out for six years, and hasn't gotten any stronger or faster?   He needs to fire his trainer, or hire one.

Not my words; his


Given what's on the line, you would think MLB would have some mechanism for verifying that players accused of violating rules really did violate the rules.  The truth is that lab technicians make mistakes - which is why doctors often call for a second battery of tests to verify results (in the lay-world)

You'd think that a multi-billion dollar industry would have a more reliable way of processing drug tests than allowing some guy named Dino to stash samples in their home for days before sending them to the lab.  Just saying ...

Anyway, having listened and watched Braun's press conference in its entirety, I tend to believe him, especially since I'm not as convinced as others that labs never make mistakes.

Press conference transcript




"I want to say thanks to (Brewers vice president of communications) Tyler Barnes. I want to say a special thank you to Michael Weiner and the players[..]ociation for supporting me through this situation and through this challenge. I want to thank the entire Milwaukee Brewers organization starting with Mark Attanasio, who truly represents everything that’s good about our game today. I want to thank my teammates, many of whom are here today and have supported me through this entire situation. I want to thank my family, my friends, a lot of other players around the league who have supported me and were there for me and who have stood by me throughout the biggest challenge I’ve ever faced in my life. I also want to thank athletes in other sports who have stepped up, shown their support and been there for me. I want to take a moment to especially thank the fans, all the fans who have supported me as well as the fans who withheld judgment as I respected the confidentiality of this case."

"As I’ve previously stated, this is without a doubt the biggest challenge I’ve ever faced in my life, and it’s made it that much more challenging that I’ve had to deal with it publicly. But I truly view this challenge as an opportunity, just as I’ve viewed every other challenge in my life – as an opportunity. I’ve tried to respect this process, even though the confidentiality of the process was breached early on. I’ve tried to handle the entire situation with honor, with integrity, with class, with dignity and with professionalism because that’s who I am and that’s how I’ve always lived my life.

"If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I’d be the first one to step up and say, ‘I did it.’ By no means am I perfect, but if I’ve ever made any mistakes in my life I’ve taken responsibility for my actions. I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life, that this substance never entered my body at any point.

"I’ve always had tremendous respect for the game of baseball, and part of the reason that I’ve kept quiet throughout the course of this ordeal, and part of the reason why I won’t be able to get into all the details today, is to put the best interests of the game ahead of the best interests of myself. And that hasn’t been easy. There were a lot of times when I wanted to come out and tell the entire story, to attack everybody as I’ve been attacked, as my name’s been dragged through the mud as everything I’ve worked for my entire life was called into question. There were a lot of times I wanted to come out, tell the entire story, but at the end of the day I recognized what’s actually best for the game of baseball and I put that ahead of what was actually best for myself.

"I could have never, ever envisioned being in this position today discussing this subject with you guys. But I truly believe that everything in life happens for a reason. I learned a long time ago to stop questioning life. I believe that everything that’s thrown at us we’re able to handle, and there’s a reason for it. I have yet to figure out exactly what the reason for this is, but I don’t question that.

"I’ve always stood up for what is right. Today is about everybody who’s been wrongly accused, and everybody who’s ever had to stand up for what is actually right. Today isn’t about me, it isn’t just about one player – it’s about all players. It’s about all current players, all future players and everybody who plays the game of baseball.

"Despite the fact there have been many inaccurate, erroneous and completely fabricated stories regarding this issue, I’ve maintained the integrity of the confidentiality of the process. There’s never been a personal medical issue, I’ve never had an STD. Many of the stories that were erroneously reported by the initial network continue to live on, and it’s sad and disappointing that this has become a PR battle and that people continue to leak information that’s inaccurate.

"I will continue to take the high road because that’s who I am, and that’s the way that I’ve lived my life. We won because the truth is on my side. The truth is always relevant, and at the end of the day the truth prevailed. I am a victim of a process that completely broke down and failed the way it was applied to me in this case. As players, we’re held to a standard of 100 percent perfection regarding the program, and everybody else[..]ociated with that program should be held to the same standard. We’re a part of a process where you’re 100 percent guilty until proven innocent. It’s opposite of the American judicial system – it’s not an innocent until proven guilty situation. So if we’re held to that standard, it’s only fair that everybody else is held to that exact same standard. With what’s at stake – this is my livelihood, this is my integrity, this is my character, this is everything that I’ve worked for in my life being called into question – we need to make sure that we get it right. If you’re going to be in a position where you’re 100 percent guilty until proven innocent, you can’t mess up. And today’s about making sure that this never happens to anybody else who plays this game.

"The system in the way it was applied to me in this case was fatally flawed. The initial test result in question was on Oct. 1. It was a playoff game. I was made aware of the positive test result on Oct. 19, at which point I had a conversation with the players[..]ociation. I expressed to them that I have not done anything that could have possibly led to this test result. I told them that I promise you on anything that’s ever meant anything to me in my life – the morals, the values, the virtues by which I’ve lived in my 28 years on this planet – I did not do this. I told them that I would be an open book. I opened up my life to them. I told them I would be more than happy and willing to take any and every test to prove that I did not do this.

"You know, the entire process has really been frustrating for me. It’s been an extremely difficult, challenging time in my life. But at the end of the day, I know the truth. My friends, family, teammates, Milwaukee Brewers organization and everybody who knows me knows the truth. At the point that I told the players[..]ociation about the positive test, they told me that the test result was three times higher than any number in the history of drug testing. We’ve had this program since, I believe, 2003 or 2004. I don’t know how many tens of thousands of tests there have been. But the fact that there’s a single number that’s three times higher than any number in the history of drug testing made me question the validity of the result. At that point, I was able to prove to them through contemporaneously documented recordings that I literally didn’t gain a single pound. When we’re in Milwaukee we weigh in at least once or twice a week. I was able to prove that I literally didn’t gain a single pound. Our times are recorded every time we run down the line, first to third, first to home. I literally didn’t get one-tenth of a second faster. My workouts have been virtually the exact same for six years. I didn’t get one percent stronger. I didn’t work out any more often. I didn’t have any additional power or any additional arm strength. All of those things are documented contemporaneously, and if anything had changed, I wouldn’t be able to go back and pretend like it didn’t change.

"I initially took a humanistic approach and explained to them, ‘I’m 27 years old, I’m just entering my prime, I have a contract guaranteed for nine more years. I’ve been tested 25 times over the course of my career, at least three times this season prior to this test, and an additional time when I signed my contract, including an extensive physical, blood test – everything you could imagine. I’ve never had any issue. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and they said, ‘That’s great, we believe you. In fact, the other side believes you. None of this makes any sense to anybody.’ At that point they explained to me the way that the process works, and that the burden of proof falls on us to be able to prove objectively what caused the positive test result, or what could have went wrong during the process that could have possibly led to the positive test result.

"So at that point, we start looking into the process. It states in the Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment program that all samples shall be taken immediately to FedEx on the day they’re collected absent unusual circumstances. The reason that this is important, typically the only two people in the world who know whose sample it is are us, the donor, and the collector, who receives our urine samples. In my case there was an additional third person, the son of the collector, who just so happened to be the my chaperone on the day that I was tested. The day of the test we had a 1 o’clock game. I provided my sample at about 4:30. There were two other players who provided their samples that day within 10 minutes of mine. The collector left the field at about 5 o’clock. There were at least five FedEx locations within five miles of the stadium that were open until 9 p.m. and an additional FedEx location that was open for 24 hours. There were upwards of 18 or 19 FedEx locations that were open between the ballpark and his house that he could have dropped the samples off at.

"When FedEx received the samples, it then creates a chain of custody at the FedEx location where he eventually brought my sample to. It would have been stored in a temperature-controlled environment, and FedEx is used to handling clinical packaging. But most importantly, you then would become a number and no longer a name. So when we provide our samples, there is a number and no longer a name[..]ociated with the sample. That way there can’t be any bias – whether it’s with FedEx, while it’s traveling, at the lab in Montreal, in any way – based on somebody’s race, religion, ethnicity, what team they play for, whatever the case may be. As players, the confidentiality of this process is extremely important. It’s always been extremely important, because the only way for the process to succeed is for the confidentiality and the chain of custody to work.

"Why he didn’t bring it in, I don’t know. On the day that he did finally bring it in, FedEx opened at 7:30. Why didn’t he bring it in until 1:30? I can’t answer that question. Why was there zero documentation? What could have possibly happened to it during that 44-hour period? There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened.

"I want everybody to ask themselves this question: if you guys went to go get a physical, something you’ve done 20-25 other times in your life, and three weeks later and told you that you were terminally ill with a disease, and it made no sense to you. ‘I feel perfectly fine, nothing’s any different than it’s ever been, this doesn’t make any sense,’ and you look back at the process and you find out that your doctor decided to take your urine sample home for a 44-, 48-hour period, there’s no documentation as to what happened. You don’t know if he left it in the trunk of his car, you don’t know where it could have been or what could have potentially happened to it during that period of time. I can[..]ure you that you would never go back to that doctor, and you would demand a re-test.

"When our samples get to the lab in Montreal, they literally handle them like it’s a nuclear weapon. Everything is documented, everything is recorded. Anybody who enters the room where the samples are stored, their names are recorded, they sign for it, they write the time that they’re there. The model of the refrigerator they’re stored in is recorded, the temperature it’s stored at is recorded. Every time they move it, it’s all documented. Contemporaneously documented, and that’s important, again, with what’s at stake – our livelihoods, our integrity, everything we’ve ever worked for in our lives, it’s extremely important that there isn’t room for human error or systematic error.

"We spoke to biochemists and scientists and we asked them, ‘How difficult would it be to tamper with somebody’s sample?’ And their response was that, ‘If they were motivated, it would be extremely easy.’ Again, that’s why it’s so important to get it out of the hands of the only person in the world who knows whose sample it is. As soon as it gets to FedEx, they don’t know whose sample it is. As soon as it gets to the lab, they don’t know whose sample it is. That’s why it’s extremely important.

"Ultimately, as I sit here today, the system worked because I am innocent, and I was able to prove my innocence. After today I look forward to returning my focus to the game of baseball, being able to get back with my teammates, allowing my life to return to some sense of normalcy and focusing on helping our team get back to the post-season.

I’ll try to answer all of your questions, but please respect the fact that I can’t get into many details of the process because it’s supposed to be confidential, and because of potential ongoing litigations and the fact that I am considering all my legal options. There may be some questions I can’t answer.

[Grape Ape]

Not sure where Conte is getting his info.  20-1  80-1  
I'm only basing it on what Braun has said which is: The test came back 3X higher than any test test ever conducted.

I guess Conte's seen 80-1 in test results.  The 20-1 which he said was Braun's I can't verify where he got the info.  The 3x comment are Braun's words.  In essence, we have nothing from MLB so it all needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Given what's on the line, you would think MLB would have some mechanism for verifying that players accused of violating rules really did violate the rules.  

They do.  The players get tested by one of the best labs in the country and they have extremely strict collecton procedures.  Braun even states it in he press conference that you posted.

The truth is that lab technicians make mistakes - which is why doctors often call for a second battery of tests to verify results (in the lay-world)[/color]

Has anyone, including the Braun camp, said the lab made a mistake?

You'd think that a multi-billion dollar industry would have a more reliable way of processing drug tests than allowing some guy named Dino to stash samples in their home for days before sending them to the lab.  Just saying ...

Please read the attached and let me know what you think that "Dino" did that was wrong and what impact it had on the test results:

On October 1, 2011, I collected samples from Mr. Braun and two other players. The CDT collection team for that day, in addition to me, included three chaperones and a CDT coordinator. One of the chaperones was my son, Anthony. Chaperones do not have any role in the actual collection process, but rather escort the player to the collection area.
I followed the same procedure in collecting Mr. Braun’s sample as I did in the hundreds of other samples I collected under the Program. I sealed the bottles containing Mr. Braun’s A and B samples with specially-numbered, tamper-resistant seals, and Mr. Braun signed a form certifying, among other things, that the specimens were capped and sealed in his presence and that the specimen identification numbers on the top of the form matched those on the seals.
I placed the two bottles containing Mr. Braun’s samples in a plastic bag and sealed the bag. I then placed the sealed bag in a standard cardboard Specimen Box which I also sealed with a tamper-resistant, correspondingly-numbered seal placed over the box opening. I then placed Mr. Braun’s Specimen Box, and the Specimen Boxes containing the samples of the two other players, in a Federal Express Clinic Pack. None of the sealed Specimen Boxes identified the players. I completed my collections at Miller Park at approximately 5:00 p.m. Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday.
Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3. In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office. The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident.

The FedEx Clinic Pack containing Mr. Braun’s samples never left my custody. Consistent with CDT’s instructions, I brought the FedEx Clinic Pack containing the samples to my home. Immediately upon arriving home, I placed the FedEx Clinic Pack in a Rubbermaid container in my office which is located in my basement. My basement office is sufficiently cool to store urine samples. No one other than my wife was in my home during the period in which the samples were stored. The sealed Specimen Boxes were not removed from the FedEx Clinic Pack during the entire period in which they were in my home. On Monday, October 3, I delivered the FedEx Clinic Pack containing Mr. Braun’s Specimen Box to a FedEx office for delivery to the laboratory on Tuesday, October 4. At no point did I tamper in any way with the samples. It is my understanding that the samples were received at the laboratory with all tamper-resistant seals intact.



http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...ight/#comments

Anyway, having listened and watched Braun's press conference in its entirety, I tend to believe him, especially since I'm not as convinced as others that labs never make mistakes.[/color]

Press conference transcript

I don't think anyone's said labs never make mistakes.  I just don't see anyone saying it here.  All we've seen is Braun getting his case over turned because of a technicality.

[funk51]

So explain this to me:

First of all, WTH could cause a testosterone reading so absurdly high?  From what I heard, the elevated level was so high that even if he was on test, the number couldn't have possibly been that high.  How long between taking a sample and actually doing the test is acceptable for results to be accurate (given the sample was handled properly)?  The sample was taken on a Saturday.  The "courier" was supposed to immediately ship it FedEx.  Instead, he took the sample home because he said the FedEx office was closed.  So the test wasn't even administered until at least Monday or Tuesday 

He didn’t gain a single pound.  He literally didn’t get 1/10th of a second faster. His workouts have been virtually the exact same for six years. He didn’t get 1% stronger. He didn’t have any additional power or any additional arm strength. All that is documented.

this guy was on PEDS., i'm just saying

[2ND COMING]

So a.j. burnett was practicing bunting a took a ball to the eye. Fractured orbital out 8 weeks. Yeah..

[funk51]

10 teams playoffs for mlb 2012. 1 game wildcard game. i think it's good because wild card team will be forced to burn top pitcher for this game. phillies probably would have beat cards if this was in effect for last year.

[Grape Ape]

Personally, I think this is horrible, and MLBs going to get heavily criticized when the first 82 win team knocks out a 95 win team in a one game playoff.

I think it cheapens the integrity of the 162 game season.  I feel the same way about the 3 out of 5 division series.

[funk51]

Personally, I think this is horrible, and MLBs going to get heavily criticized when the first 82 win team knocks out a 95 win team in a one game playoff.

I think it cheapens the integrity of the 162 game season.  I feel the same way about the 3 out of 5 division series.

i agree with you on the 3 out of 5 every round should be 4 of 7. but i like a wildcard to be at every diasavantage possible to earn it's spot as it is wildcard has little dissadvantage than 102 win team.... in football guys get beat up for an extra game at least wildcard weekend.

[funk51]

albert p tells angels not to use billboard saying he is the man in respect  to stan the man.

[Grape Ape]

i agree with you on the 3 out of 5 every round should be 4 of 7. but i like a wildcard to be at every diasavantage possible to earn it's spot as it is wildcard has little dissadvantage than 102 win team.... in football guys get beat up for an extra game at least wildcard weekend.

You make valid points, and I guess I can concede that it's the penalty for being a Wildcard.    But, being a Yankee fan, often it takes a ridiculous amount of wins to win that division, and I'd hate to see even Tampa win 96 games and get eliminated by a Cleveland type team.

[funk51]

lenny dykstra gets 3 years in state prison. : and shows  no remorse to the victims.