Was Mike Mentzer alone ?

[pellius]

mentzer at 19 long before he bucked the system to make more bucks. coe said mentzer  made over a million dollars the year that he died.contoversy creates cash.

I find that hard to believe. I lived near Mentzer at the time of his death and he lived in a fairly modest two bedroom apartment in Redondo Beach. I don't remember the make and model of his car but I can assure you it was not a luxury model nor was it very new.

[funk51]

I find that hard to believe. I lived near Mentzer at the time of his death and he lived in a fairly modest two bedroom apartment in Redondo Beach. I don't remember the make and model of his car but I can assure you it was not a luxury model nor was it very new.

i'm just going by an interview with boyer coe where he is asked about mike mentzers last days.

[mass243]

I find that hard to believe. I lived near Mentzer at the time of his death and he lived in a fairly modest two bedroom apartment in Redondo Beach. I don't remember the make and model of his car but I can assure you it was not a luxury model nor was it very new.

LOL

Not everybody want to show off if they have money.

Look at Warren Buffett. Would you believe that dude is in top 3 of world's richest people? And was actually the world's richest man at one year.
Pretty average and old house. Always had used (not luxury) cars.

Would you think this is a house of world's richest man?


He bought it back in 1956 for 31 500 dollars if I remember correct. Still lives in it.

Newsflash: Not everyone tries to mimic the lifestyle shown in rap videos on MTV (which are not real life BTW)

[MB]

HIT influenced the way nearly everyone trains now.  Most people train each bodypart once per week, which really began with Dorian.  Of course, Dorian was influenced by Arthur and Mike.  Not many use HIT intensity or volume, but HIT frequency is commonplace.  

[bigkid]

LOL at Mentzer making a million dollars the year he died. Complete horseshit.

[Palpatine Q]

HIT influenced the way nearly everyone trains now.  Most people train each bodypart once per week, which really began with Dorian.  Of course, Dorian was influenced by Arthur and Mike.  Not many use HIT intensity or volume, but HIT frequency is commonplace.  

HIT has its place...no doubt.. the recovery aspect of BBung is pretty much HIT inspired....which is great if you are a Natty trainer.....on Gear you can work out every day for two hours and still grow....So its pretty much useless for a pro. Dorian didn't even use a real HIT program. It was conventional training with less sets but heavier weights.  And I love the way a "warmup set" with 315 isn't considered a "set".....puh-leeze  

I notice hit is employed by guys who think they "know better"....to this day Dorian thinks "his workout" is mythical ...

On the other end of the spectrum......dj181 is a HIT er.....nuff said  

[pellius]

LOL

Not everybody want to show off if they have money.

Look at Warren Buffett. Would you believe that dude is in top 3 of world's richest people? And was actually the world's richest man at one year.
Pretty average and old house. Always had used (not luxury) cars.

Would you think this is a house of world's richest man?


He bought it back in 1956 for 31 500 dollars if I remember correct. Still lives in it.

Newsflash: Not everyone tries to mimic the lifestyle shown in rap videos on MTV (which are not real life BTW)

Understood, but by the implication in the post I was responding to  Mentzer sold out for money. He "bucked the system to make more bucks." If he was all about money then it's not a stretch to imagine he'd want to show he was so successful.
 

 

[pellius]

HIT influenced the way nearly everyone trains now.  Most people train each bodypart once per week, which really began with Dorian.  Of course, Dorian was influenced by Arthur and Mike.  Not many use HIT intensity or volume, but HIT frequency is commonplace.  

I think Mentzer/Jones principles are used widely but just not given credit. The frequency in training has dropped considerable since Arnold's days. I believe that guys like Branch and Coleman train with incredible intensity. The main bone of contention is the amount of volume but even then bodybuilders (not all) don't use the 20 sets per body part for major groups like chest, back, quads and maybe 9-12 for arms, hams.... that was common in the 1970s.

When I say I follow the basic fundamental principles laid out by Mentzer it doesn't mean I do one set per bodypart every two weeks. But I still follow the principles of intensity and less frequency and sets than the normal bodybuilding routine. For example, I did legs yesterday, I did one set of squats with a weight that I could barely get 9 reps out of. I stop when I really start bending over. I rack it and stand there and take 5 deep breaths and bang out as many more as I can, in this case 4 reps, rack it again, 5 deep breaths, got another two reps, drop the weight 50lbs did another 10, racked it and did body weight squats until I was on my back sucking wind. Has my quads grown any? Not in the last 20 years. Do I think it would grow if I did a more bodybuilding routine? No, because I tried that. I find that doing a more traditional bodybuilding routine where I rest a minute or two between sets much less intense and much easier. Pushing yourself so that you're gasping for air is no fun. But I do it simply because it keeps me in much better condition. Much better shape to do other things where conditioning is at a premium. To me resistance training isn't always about getting bigger muscles. In fact, at my age it hardly even an issue.

BTW, after I got my breath it was one drop set of leg curls, one set on the hacks to failure with force reps (I force them out pushing on my knees), followed by another set of bodyweight squats and then a set of stiff leg dead lifts, all without a break to complete the leg routine.

[suckmymuscle]

And yes his training advices when he retired were crazy.

  In his "consolidation routine" he advocated doing one set every two weeks! This advice would only be recommended for an extreme ectomorph recovering from surgery who is doing physiotherapy and that's it. It is severe undertraining for everyone else.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[tommywishbone]

I find that hard to believe. I lived near Mentzer at the time of his death and he lived in a fairly modest two bedroom apartment in Redondo Beach. I don't remember the make and model of his car but I can assure you it was not a luxury model nor was it very new.

Near that time Mike had a White 1996 Jaguar XJ6. I know because I had one too.

[wes]

Pellius,that`s not HIT bro,that`s a Giant-Set.

[tbombz]

I think Mentzer/Jones principles are used widely but just not given credit. The frequency in training has dropped considerable since Arnold's days. I believe that guys like Branch and Coleman train with incredible intensity. The main bone of contention is the amount of volume but even then bodybuilders (not all) don't use the 20 sets per body part for major groups like chest, back, quads and maybe 9-12 for arms, hams.... that was common in the 1970s.

When I say I follow the basic fundamental principles laid out by Mentzer it doesn't mean I do one set per bodypart every two weeks. But I still follow the principles of intensity and less frequency and sets than the normal bodybuilding routine. For example, I did legs yesterday, I did one set of squats with a weight that I could barely get 9 reps out of. I stop when I really start bending over. I rack it and stand there and take 5 deep breaths and bang out as many more as I can, in this case 4 reps, rack it again, 5 deep breaths, got another two reps, drop the weight 50lbs did another 10, racked it and did body weight squats until I was on my back sucking wind. Has my quads grown any? Not in the last 20 years. Do I think it would grow if I did a more bodybuilding routine? No, because I tried that. I find that doing a more traditional bodybuilding routine where I rest a minute or two between sets much less intense and much easier. Pushing yourself so that you're gasping for air is no fun. But I do it simply because it keeps me in much better condition. Much better shape to do other things where conditioning is at a premium. To me resistance training isn't always about getting bigger muscles. In fact, at my age it hardly even an issue.

BTW, after I got my breath it was one drop set of leg curls, one set on the hacks to failure with force reps (I force them out pushing on my knees), followed by another set of bodyweight squats and then a set of stiff leg dead lifts, all without a break to complete the leg routine.

your admitting your training is for cardio, not muscle gain


muscle gaining is done by long rest between sets, high volume, high frequency,and staying far away from failure.



of course the flipside is that if you do go to failure, then yes mentzers training is the way to go. cuz your body cant handle multiple sets to failure and it will need time to recover from the damage inflicted by going to that point.  one set to failure sparks growth for sure though. 

[suckmymuscle]

muscle gaining is done by long rest between sets, high volume, high frequency,and staying far away from failure.

  There are so many wrong things with this statement.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[pellius]

Pellius,that`s not HIT bro,that`s a Giant-Set.

I define HIT as having the following attributes: lower frequency (in comparison to traditional routines: 3-4 days max/week),  lower duration (not going over an hour), progression (trying to exceed your previous performance and varying the stimulus) and lastly, and most importantly and most neglected, is intensity -- training hard, pushing yourself, stimulating an adaptive response. I just don't understand how one can think they will improve if they are continuously doing things that are relatively easy. When I reach positive failure on a set, defined as not being able to complete another full rep in good form, that's when the set really begins for me. Often times when eeking out the last rep and I will say to myself, "OK, now it begins."

Often one gets caught up in semantics. If you are not doing one set per body part and training each muscle group once every 10-14 days then you are not doing HIT. To me volume training is anything over 9 sets/body part. Jones use to say "Train your muscles anaerobically and train your body aerobically." That why he had Casey jump from one exercise to another with little or no rest. You call it giant sets. When I did shoulders last Saturday, after warming up, I did dumbbell laterals starting with a weight that I got six good reps on, followed by some partials, and worked my way down the rack without stopping until I hit the 15 pounders. You call that giant sets and I call it drop sets. Same thing in my mind. I almost always do partial on my last set. It use to be called burns. The fellas over on IronMan call it X-reps. Whatever.  

BTW, I am of the belief that training in this manner, training your muscles anaerobically and your body aerobically, is NOT the idea training protocol for muscle hypertrophy. Boyer Cole commented that moving so fast you didn't give your body enough time to recover so that you can really push the muscles (not the cardiovascular system). He also mentioned, and this may be even more important, is just spend a bit of time psyching up. Focusing and visualizing. Winding up and building momentum. If you got 8 reps the last time you want to get the 9th rep or die trying.

I believe that circuit training, giants set, or whatever; is best for athletic conditioning and the most productive use of your time for general health and fitness. No need to separate strength training and cardiovascular conditioning. For strength and muscle hypertrophy you have to slow down the pace some and really focus on moving weight.  

[PJim]

your admitting your training is for cardio, not muscle gain


muscle gaining is done by long rest between sets, high volume, high frequency,and staying far away from failure.



of course the flipside is that if you do go to failure, then yes mentzers training is the way to go. cuz your body cant handle multiple sets to failure and it will need time to recover from the damage inflicted by going to that point.  one set to failure sparks growth for sure though. 

Finally, something we can agree on.

[Reeves]

Mentzer, while no genius was a very smart man as was Arthur Jones before him.  If you think about it, HIT makes perfect sense.  Doing the most with the least  is an  economically sound  way to train but  you have to realize that with HIT you are essentially doing the most intense workout in an effort to economize your time while maximizing your gains.

It is pretty much a fact that you can train long or train hard, but not both.  This is not to say that volume training is not difficult, but rather that it is not as intense as HIT. 

There may well be no right or wrong way to train, but for many there is a better way and that would be HIT.  For many... Not "all". 

[chess315]

he also benefited from the fact that the workouts in the magazines where so far over training for a natural bodybuilder his system would at least give reasonable gains where the weider system would not before I touched a steroid in my youth I even went as far to get pre 1960s training info to see exacty what some one not juicing would train like. I am even convinced some one one low dose juice would be almost better served on a full body routine or a b split

[wes]

I define HIT as having the following attributes: lower frequency (in comparison to traditional routines: 3-4 days max/week),  lower duration (not going over an hour), progression (trying to exceed your previous performance and varying the stimulus) and lastly, and most importantly and most neglected, is intensity -- training hard, pushing yourself, stimulating an adaptive response. I just don't understand how one can think they will improve if they are continuously doing things that are relatively easy. When I reach positive failure on a set, defined as not being able to complete another full rep in good form, that's when the set really begins for me. Often times when eeking out the last rep and I will say to myself, "OK, now it begins."

Often one gets caught up in semantics. If you are not doing one set per body part and training each muscle group once every 10-14 days then you are not doing HIT. To me volume training is anything over 9 sets/body part. Jones use to say "Train your muscles anaerobically and train your body aerobically." That why he had Casey jump from one exercise to another with little or no rest. You call it giant sets. When I did shoulders last Saturday, after warming up, I did dumbbell laterals starting with a weight that I got six good reps on, followed by some partials, and worked my way down the rack without stopping until I hit the 15 pounders. You call that giant sets and I call it drop sets. Same thing in my mind. I almost always do partial on my last set. It use to be called burns. The fellas over on IronMan call it X-reps. Whatever. 

BTW, I am of the belief that training in this manner, training your muscles anaerobically and your body aerobically, is NOT the idea training protocol for muscle hypertrophy. Boyer Cole commented that moving so fast you didn't give your body enough time to recover so that you can really push the muscles (not the cardiovascular system). He also mentioned, and this may be even more important, is just spend a bit of time psyching up. Focusing and visualizing. Winding up and building momentum. If you got 8 reps the last time you want to get the 9th rep or die trying.

I believe that circuit training, giants set, or whatever; is best for athletic conditioning and the most productive use of your time for general health and fitness. No need to separate strength training and cardiovascular conditioning. For strength and muscle hypertrophy you have to slow down the pace some and really focus on moving weight.   

Good stuff bro,I feel the same way..............my work ethic in the gym is second to none.

I train as heavy as possible for the reps I`m shooting for,very little rest between sets,,extend sets by doing half reps at the end and at times static holds,lots of intensity techniques,etc. etc.

Getting old is a bitch but training hard is not for the faint of heart.

[Dr Dutch]

I always hear this but it is just patently wrong. Although I've injured virtually every part of my body beginning from my big toe, ankle, calf, knee... all the way to my skull I have never ever injure myself training with weights and I've been using and following the general principles of Jones and Mentzer for 30 years.

You're a stuntman or what ? 

[mass243]

You're a stuntman or what ? 

Or just runs his mouth too much   

[Matt C]

Yes he was..........built his main bulk on high volume for decades, and lots of gear.

In the DVD he made for GMV "Mike & Ray Mentzer: In The Gym", he said that some of the protocols prescribed to people only work for genetics freaks on steroids.  Well...what was Mike exactly? 

My review for the DVD is on my site, Bodybuilding Pro.  Just Google Mike & Ray Mentzer: In The Gym DVD review and it will be on the first page.  Good DVD to be honest, but I objected to that comment as Mike was kind of selling a fantasy to some people while denouncing others who do so.

[Tito24]

was he alone when he died?

[Doug_Steele]

In the DVD he made for GMV "Mike & Ray Mentzer: In The Gym", he said that some of the protocols prescribed to people only work for genetics freaks on steroids.  Well...what was Mike exactly? 

My review for the DVD is on my site, Bodybuilding Pro.  Just Google Mike & Ray Mentzer: In The Gym DVD review and it will be on the first page.  Good DVD to be honest, but I objected to that comment as Mike was kind of selling a fantasy to some people while denouncing others who do so.

Matt, are you trying to be the next Ron? 

[wes]

It must feel good to be an industry insider huh Matt?

[JP_RC]

I think Mentzer/Jones principles are used widely but just not given credit. The frequency in training has dropped considerable since Arnold's days. I believe that guys like Branch and Coleman train with incredible intensity. The main bone of contention is the amount of volume but even then bodybuilders (not all) don't use the 20 sets per body part for major groups like chest, back, quads and maybe 9-12 for arms, hams.... that was common in the 1970s.

When I say I follow the basic fundamental principles laid out by Mentzer it doesn't mean I do one set per bodypart every two weeks. But I still follow the principles of intensity and less frequency and sets than the normal bodybuilding routine. For example, I did legs yesterday, I did one set of squats with a weight that I could barely get 9 reps out of. I stop when I really start bending over. I rack it and stand there and take 5 deep breaths and bang out as many more as I can, in this case 4 reps, rack it again, 5 deep breaths, got another two reps, drop the weight 50lbs did another 10, racked it and did body weight squats until I was on my back sucking wind. Has my quads grown any? Not in the last 20 years. Do I think it would grow if I did a more bodybuilding routine? No, because I tried that. I find that doing a more traditional bodybuilding routine where I rest a minute or two between sets much less intense and much easier. Pushing yourself so that you're gasping for air is no fun. But I do it simply because it keeps me in much better condition. Much better shape to do other things where conditioning is at a premium. To me resistance training isn't always about getting bigger muscles. In fact, at my age it hardly even an issue.

BTW, after I got my breath it was one drop set of leg curls, one set on the hacks to failure with force reps (I force them out pushing on my knees), followed by another set of bodyweight squats and then a set of stiff leg dead lifts, all without a break to complete the leg routine.

I also like training with short rest periods, I don't notice any less muscle stimulation from it than when I did longer rest periods and I'm in better shape. Antagonistic supersets are great.

 In his "consolidation routine" he advocated doing one set every two weeks! This advice would only be recommended for an extreme ectomorph recovering from surgery who is doing physiotherapy and that's it. It is severe undertraining for everyone else.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

I agree completely.
Personally I like training each body part  twice a week, doing onely 1 set every 2 weeks would be severe undertraining.