question for christians, AGAIN...

[Agnostic007]

I struggled tremendously with this topic for some time.  I've had countless discussions about it with friends and I really never  reached clarity with it until a friend sent me this video.  Check it out as Chan lays it out pretty cut and dry:

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One of the main reasons that Chan is speaking out in this manner is most likely because of what Rob Bell has proposed in "Love Wins".  Bell's premise begins with "God cannot be all powerful and all loving and not eventually save everyone".  His conclusion is that God CANNOT be all loving and all powerful if he DOES NOT eventually save everyone. Another premise is along the lines of "The doctrine of an eternal Hell is not Biblical and it has been misinterpreted for the last 2,000 years by the majority".  Another premise that is implied is that "No one deserves eternal punishment."  Bell concludes professing that a new kind of Christianity is coming, like one that has never been seen.   

I wouldn't worry about Bell so much as I would ourselves, but that's the context of Chan's video.  Chan points out very well that what chance do we have in knowing the true God if we refuse to let God speak above our desires and wants whenever they conflict with Scripture.  Tim Keller does a strong job of speaking to this in The Reason for God -- he says that we are prone to creating a Stepford God, like the Stepford Wives of the movie from a few years ago.  He reasons, if God is supreme to us, then there must be times where we are deeply challenged by his ways. 

This right here is the dangerous edge we are walking next to, not just Bell.  Do you want a "revolution" more than Christ? Do we want a new "Christianity" more than Christ? Do we want to see reconciliation, healing, joy, all things made new more than we want Christ himself? Does our longing for Heaven ultimate rest in a desire to be in the presence of God? Are you worshiping the creation and not the creator Himself?

If Christ is not ultimately supreme in our affections and desires then in my personal experience, and in watching others, that's exactly when we begin to create a self-created version of Christ.  That's when we begin to say things like, "Well, I don't understand this and I refuse to believe God knows what he's doing so I will either ignore it or create an opinion that is outside of Scripture". 

So when I think about Hell I think less about how people don't deserve it and I think more about how I deserve it.  I think about how I've earned it.  And then I think about how undeserving I am of Christ's love, his rescuing me, and I am absolutely grateful.  Not because of what I've done, but because of what he's done.  That doesn't make me feel better about myself, it makes me feel better about him and my identity in him.  This produces joy but a true joy that is overflowed from him.

I cannot begin to presume to know what God's ultimate plan is, I can only hope that He is revealed to me and I can share that with every else that comes into my life.

Im curious, what have you done to deserve an eternity in hell?

[Deicide]

I wonder if some people truly truly would choose hell/separation from God for eternity and these are the people that God allows to go to hell.  Even our faith (believers) is a gift from God, and since He knows the heart, perhaps the gift is given to those that would want to believe? 

I used to agonize over the thought of anyone not going to heaven but reading many of the posts on this website I do think that some people may truly not wish to spend eternity w/God.  It makes me think of bowl judgments in Revelation that are being poured out and men are still cursing God.  Imo, the people going through that are not ignorant of what is happening but still curse God.

If you don't think something is real then you usually don't worry about it. Or is this directed at people who actually in believe in the Christian god?

[Reeves]

Get lost pecker head

You have a wonderful economy with words. I eagerly await your next mumbling utterance with, if not great anticipation, at least the hope that you will prove to be a lesser disappointment than usual.

While some drank deeply from the fountain of knowledge, others were content with a cup.  Still others had but a swallow of the wondrous waters and then there was you.  You?  You merely "gargled".

[Hugo Chavez]

You have a wonderful economy with words. I eagerly await your next mumbling utterance with, if not great anticipation, at least the hope that you will prove to be a lesser disappointment than usual.

While some drank deeply from the fountain of knowledge, others were content with a cup.  Still others had but a swallow of the wondrous waters and then there was you.  You?  You merely "gargled".

Hi Jag

[Dos Equis]

Isn't that just one massive oxymoron?

Nope.

[Deicide]

Nope.

Religious faith has nothing to do with common sense, in fact it requires that you do not use common sense.

[Dos Equis]

Religious faith has nothing to do with common sense, in fact it requires that you do not use common sense.

No it doesn't.  It requires a great deal of common sense.  It's the belief in nothing that doesn't require a whole lot of brain power IMO.

[Deicide]

No it doesn't.  It requires a great deal of common sense.  It's the belief in nothing that doesn't require a whole lot of brain power IMO.

Who believes in nothing? I don't know anyone...including myself. I believe in plenty of things just no gods.

[Dos Equis]

Who believes in nothing? I don't know anyone...including myself. I believe in plenty of things just no gods.

What's sort of amusing is the people with your mindset who can't just believe in nothing (talking from a faith standpoint), but have to ridicule people of faith.  The bulk of the atheist movement is centered around ridiculing religion.

[Deicide]

What's sort of amusing is the people with your mindset who can't just believe in nothing (talking from a faith standpoint), but have to ridicule people of faith.  The bulk of the atheist movement is centered around ridiculing religion.

Maybe some do but it's a waste of time, people will believe what they believe and some of us (including myself) are such that we cannot believe.

[Agnostic007]

What's sort of amusing is the people with your mindset who can't just believe in nothing (talking from a faith standpoint), but have to ridicule people of faith.  The bulk of the atheist movement is centered around ridiculing religion.

I guess it's a matter of perception. I percieve the bulk of atheists quietly going about their business while there are some vocal atheists who are concerned that the religious people will continue to trod on their right not to participate in a religion.

[Agnostic007]

You have a wonderful economy with words. I eagerly await your next mumbling utterance with, if not great anticipation, at least the hope that you will prove to be a lesser disappointment than usual.

While some drank deeply from the fountain of knowledge, others were content with a cup.  Still others had but a swallow of the wondrous waters and then there was you.  You?  You merely "gargled".

You have a penchant for using a lot of words to say nothing at all. I prefer economy to gluttony.

[Deicide]

I guess it's a matter of perception. I percieve the bulk of atheists quietly going about their business while there are some vocal atheists who are concerned that the religious people will continue to trod on their right not to participate in a religion.

Texas is very religious, isn't it?

[Dos Equis]

I guess it's a matter of perception. I percieve the bulk of atheists quietly going about their business while there are some vocal atheists who are concerned that the religious people will continue to trod on their right not to participate in a religion.

That may be true.  I'll bump a thread or two when I get a chance where I posted links and stories about how active atheist groups are (annual conventions, magazines, TV, books, etc.).  

I think everyone has the right to practice any religion, or no religion, and should be left alone to do whatever it is they want (within the confines of the law).  

[Agnostic007]

Texas is very religious, isn't it?

Yes, but Christ like...probably no different than anywhere else

[Deicide]

Yes, but Christ like...probably no different than anywhere else

NYC is not like that.

[Agnostic007]

NYC is not like that.

I mean yes religious.. christ like...no so much

[Reeves]

You have a penchant for using a lot of words to say nothing at all. I prefer economy to gluttony.

Give it up wishy washy boy.  "Gluttony"?  What I serve is prime rib while you dish up shitloaf.  Agnostic?  FTN.

[probound2]

Act 24:15

"And I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

[Emmortal]

Act 24:15

"And I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

The resurrection of the wicked does not insinuate they will rise to eternal life with God, all still must be judged.

Daniel 12:2
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

[Agnostic007]

Give it up wishy washy boy.  "Gluttony"?  What I serve is prime rib while you dish up shitloaf.  Agnostic?  FTN.

I checked you're recent posts out of curiosity. I've never noticed you before you chimed in this discussion with no positive contribution, just an unprovoked insult on one of the members of the discussion. Turns out I was unable to find ANY post where you actually contributed anything other than insults. You remind me of that old guy at the office, every office has one, where he is always negative, always chiming in with sarcastic comments, nothing positive to say ever, and never really adds anything meaningful to a conversation. I'd suggest counseling but you are too far gone to believe you need any professional help..(Vicious cycle I know) but in the interim, please go away until you think of something that actually contributes to a discusson.. ok?

[Reeves]

I checked you're recent posts out of curiosity. I've never noticed you before you chimed in this discussion with no positive contribution, just an unprovoked insult on one of the members of the discussion. Turns out I was unable to find ANY post where you actually contributed anything other than insults. You remind me of that old guy at the office, every office has one, where he is always negative, always chiming in with sarcastic comments, nothing positive to say ever, and never really adds anything meaningful to a conversation. I'd suggest counseling but you are too far gone to believe you need any professional help..(Vicious cycle I know) but in the interim, please go away until you think of something that actually contributes to a discusson.. ok?

Would you like me to call you a Waaaaaaaaaambulance?  I am positive where I think I should be and have been so in the past, that you were incapable of finding supportive evidence does not surprise me in the least.  Get over it or get used to disappointment, young feller.


Here allow me to be "positive".  I am positive that your mental age is somewhere centered around the age of puberty or thereabouts.  This would account for your inability to make up your mind (you are an agnostic, correct?)  There... Feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel better?  I don't, but perhaps you do.  Latter, kiddo. 

[Agnostic007]

Would you like me to call you a Waaaaaaaaaambulance?  I am positive where I think I should be and have been so in the past, that you were incapable of finding supportive evidence does not surprise me in the least.  Get over it or get used to disappointment, young feller.


Here allow me to be "positive".  I am positive that your mental age is somewhere centered around the age of puberty or thereabouts.  This would account for your inability to make up your mind (you are an agnostic, correct?)  There... Feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel better?  I don't, but perhaps you do.  Latter, kiddo. 

Thanks for making my point.. have a nice day. 

[Reeves]

Thanks for making my point.. have a nice day. 

I'm trying.  Thank, man! 

[Agnostic007]

I'm trying.  Thank, man! 

I have to retract my earlier statement. I was surfing GetBig in the G&O section and found a contribution from you.. my bad