Author Topic: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies  (Read 37121 times)

DK II

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #150 on: September 14, 2011, 06:35:48 PM »
Each day I do the Adonis 100.

I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes.  The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.

If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.

I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.



That means you can do 4 sets of 25 reps with minimal break inbetween with a weight you think you can rep for 10?

Maybe you lie to yourself a bit there?

tbombz

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #151 on: September 14, 2011, 06:36:12 PM »
Complete bullshit in my opinion.  The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume.  There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion. 
for a natural, i think you might be right. but for a juicer overtraining is a very serious problem. hard to explain, i think maybe the drugs make you very sensitive to resistance exercise and in turn some negative feedback loops are created.

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #152 on: September 14, 2011, 06:38:36 PM »


That means you can do 4 sets of 25 reps with minimal break inbetween with a weight you think you can rep for 10?

Maybe you lie to yourself a bit there?
No you missed what I said completely.

I do 10-13.  Rest just barely enough to get another 10-13 to make 25 reps.  Then I May lower the weight, or I may not. If I don`t lower the weight, the reps become less and less and the sets increase.  I don`t care how many sets it takes as the goal is 100 reps.

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #153 on: September 14, 2011, 06:38:52 PM »
No such thing as too much weight training?   So take a weight you can do 10 fairly comfortable reps with, and do 2000 reps each day -- this will help?

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #154 on: September 14, 2011, 06:40:02 PM »
Complete bullshit in my opinion.  The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume.  There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion. 

I strongly disagree. Overtraining exists, althought it's not as common as some people claim because most people don't train hard enough for a long enough time period to get overtrained. They may overreach (overtraining light) but not many normal trainees overtrain. But there are certainly psycho bodybuilders who do overtrain.

The best life time naturals are freaks and can get away with stuff the average lifter can't. And many times these guys lie about their 'supplementation'.

DK II

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2011, 06:41:34 PM »
No you missed what I said completely.

I do 10-13.  Rest just barely enough to get another 10-13 to make 25 reps.  Then I May lower the weight, or I may not. If I don`t lower the weight, the reps become less and less and the sets increase.  I don`t care how many sets it takes as the goal is 100 reps.

Ah ok, got you.

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2011, 06:41:38 PM »
Yep, I've seen  them all and while it looks cool to throw around big weight in the end by the time you are 45 you are a complete mess of injuries. Extreme size comes from hormones anyway so why not enjoy training till you are old.

this ^
b

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2011, 06:59:43 PM »
Bump for the bump and full exaustion of the muscle.

Correct Training - recovery - Correct Hormones - plus Correct Diet  8)

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #158 on: September 14, 2011, 07:01:22 PM »
for a natural, i think you might be right. but for a juicer overtraining is a very serious problem. hard to explain, i think maybe the drugs make you very sensitive to resistance exercise and in turn some negative feedback loops are created.
experience led me to a similar conclusion

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #159 on: September 14, 2011, 07:43:28 PM »

there is nothing special about reaching failure. what makes a muscle grow is time under tension and progressive overload.  over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets. one set to failure is ok and can work but the idea is to get your muscle able to lift heavy weight for a bunch of sets in multiple rep ranges. whats going to be bigger, a muscle that can do one set to failure at 10 reps with 300lbs or a muscle that can do 10 easy sets of 6 with 300lbs.  the muscle capable of doing multiple sets will be bigger than the one which can only do one set.


I agree with the concept of TUT being a far more accurate method than counting reps (though it is not practical). Your muscles don't count numbers but it does know (metaphorically speaking) how long it is under tension. If you do, say 8 reps on the bench without fully locking out your muscle are under constant tension during that set. If instead you lock out after each rep and pause for a second or so that is quite different. But TUT, in and of itself is not enough, it is a necessary but insufficient condition for stimulating an adaptive reponse. If I pick up a five pound dumbbell and curl it for five minutes I don't think it will stimulate an adaptive response in regard to stimulating size and strength, then if I took a 45 lb dumbbell and crank out 10 clean reps failing to get the 11th.

And you are quite right that "over working a muscle by pushing it to failue repeatedly only inhibits your bodies ability to grow as it has to deal with the damage caused by those sets."
The operative phrases here are "repeatedly" and "over working" which  is the reason the training sessions are kept brief and allowing for sufficient recovery. And this varies from individual to individual, age, life styles, etc. To make a blanket statement that it takes x number of days for a muscle to grow and recover doesn't seem accurate. Even if you take identical twins, better yet clones, but all one does is lift weights and lays around all day and sleeps 10-12 hours a night as opposed to his unfortunate twin who works construction 12 hours a day in the hot sun and sleeps six hours a day. And this assumes that calories are NOT the same but that the more active individual consumes far more so that his caloric surplus matches his twin.  
 
also, and this is a key point, just because your not pushing your muscle to the point of failure, does not mean the weight was easy to lift or that your muscle hasnt been taxed/stimulated.  every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. more reps without over training= more growth.  the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form, but not to tax your cns and muscle fibers to the point where they have to focus on repairing damage instead of growing.

This corresponds to your initial point that "there is nothing special about reaching failure." It is special in the sense that you are working more intensely than if you were to stop, say, two reps from failure. And, yes, it does not mean that the weight was easy to lift (though you could say "easier" of that your muscle "hasn't been taxed/stimulated." Mentzer addressed this possibility. Who is to say that it ONLY takes 100% momentary maximal effort? Maybe it's 95% or 90%? Maybe even just 70%? I think even you, yourself, suggested, 85%(?). But the problem is, how do you measure it? How do you know if you are working at 92% of your maximum effort? Mentzer propose that you can only accurately measure two values of intensity: Zero and a 100.
But unlike zero percent of intensity which I think can be measured exactly; 100% is still a subjective evaluation. There's 100% of effort and there's 100% of effort with Jones pointing a pistol at your head as he allegedly did to Viator. But it's still measured much more accurately than some midrange percent of intensity of effort.

And I don't think it make intuitive sense that every single time you rep a weight you are stimulating growth. In fact, this is disproved everywhere at every time at all gyms  throughout the world. I've trained in a lot of different gym throughout my 39 years of continuous training and the vast majority of the trainees in there don't look like they've ever exercised a day in their life. Say, your best bench lift is 315 lbs for 8 reps. But instead you just do one to two reps every time you bench. Do you think you'll make any progress at all?

"the idea is to push yourself, lift heavy, do a mixture of rep ranges, keep good form"

Yes: intensity, progression, and varying the stimuli.



pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #160 on: September 14, 2011, 07:52:21 PM »
Thanks. I feel that deadlifts steal alot of energy from your overall recovery pool and don't necessarily give the growth that you could believe just from looking at poundages.

I agree from a bodybuilding perspective. I do believe it has considerable value in real world conditions. Everyone at some time or another will be required to pick up something heavy from the ground. So once a week, on back day, I very reluctantly, and always under protest, do one warm up set at 135 lbs (6 reps) and then another set with 225lbs for as many reps as I feel like. I don't go balls to the wall on this or pay attention to progression. And my grip isn't the traditional deal lift staggered grip. Both palms face my shins.

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #161 on: September 14, 2011, 07:53:36 PM »
nope dont read his site im speaking from personal experience and what i see in the gym.  i actually think naturals are probably better off training to failure repeatedly.

Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #162 on: September 14, 2011, 07:56:32 PM »
Yeah I guess I'd be a lot bigger if I trained a body part twice a week and lowered my reps to under 12.

Holy shit! That's not how I pictured you at all. I always pictured you as sort of a younger looking Arthur Jones minus the guns (as in firearms).

Very impressive.

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #163 on: September 14, 2011, 07:57:43 PM »
Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.
I find the complete opposite of that to be true. 

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #164 on: September 14, 2011, 07:58:56 PM »
Interesting post.  Many believe you MUST damage the muscle so that it "rebuilds bigger than ever."  This is repeated everywhere, but I think is just another unfounded prejudice.

It never made sense to me this whole "tearing and damaging the muscle" so that it will buildup even stronger. I've had muscle tears before and when it fully healed it certainly didn't get any bigger or stronger.

Disgusted

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #165 on: September 14, 2011, 08:05:03 PM »
From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are.  You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.

Depends on what you are talking about. I know most do not like to hear this, but if you are natural then you are going to stop growing eventually, the end. NO I mean the END!!! Yeah but what if I? NO THE END!!!!!!!  So when this happens there is really no point in doing anything more than it takes to maintain your size.

There is also no logical reason to think that if you are natural that you have to "train more". Steroids do not work because you train less or more. People who are natural always seem to try and condone what they do based on the opposite of what people who use steroids do. There is nothing wrong with mixing things up for fun sake if you enjoy training, but keep things in perspective and realize that what you are doing is not stimulating any new growth. People who are truely natural will never make any gains past a certain point and if they do it's bacause of drugs. I love how some of these so called naturals try and explain how they gained X amount of muscle for this years show after being natural for years. Well, last year I trained real hard this year I trained reeeeeally hard, I ate more protein, I slept more, I trained a new way. How bout I doubled my Anadrol dose.

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #166 on: September 14, 2011, 08:06:16 PM »
Good solid build.... Scrath that. Great build.

Thanks for not putting in that "for your age" qualifier. I still don't think of myself as 51 years old. I certainly don't act it though I'm not sure that's a good thing. I mean, I'm flirting with a 17 yr old at work. She even asked me if I would "do her" if she were legal. I said that I would "Do her" and "Do her hard. Very hard." Then she said I would have to wait until November. lol!

When her dad, who is about five years younger than me, came by to pick her up and said "Hi!" to me like he does everyday. It just felt different. Poor guy. That's why I'm glad I don't have kids. Especially a daughter.

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #167 on: September 14, 2011, 08:07:38 PM »
I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way.  I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.

BINGO!

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #168 on: September 14, 2011, 08:09:39 PM »
Each day I do the Adonis 100.

I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes.  The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.

If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.

I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.

thanks for sharing, pansy. who the fuck- if your little 'system' works- would want to look anything remotely close to you anyway.

:D
b

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #169 on: September 14, 2011, 08:13:46 PM »
From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are.  You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.

But you just contradicted yourself when you put in the qualifier "4-7 day a week range." Basile once suggested that if you could, training 8 hours a day everyday would be good. I personally got zero progress when I was doing the 6day/wk training each body part three times per week. And this was in my late teens early twenties -- supposedly my peak recovery years. I'm convinced that training just 3x/wk is what has keep me so consistent over the decades. Even 4x/wk was too much and I'd get burned out after about a month. I can't believe just one extra day (and really not much more actual training/sets) made such a difference.

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #170 on: September 14, 2011, 08:15:56 PM »
Depends on what you are talking about. I know most do not like to hear this, but if you are natural then you are going to stop growing eventually, the end. NO I mean the END!!! Yeah but what if I? NO THE END!!!!!!!  So when this happens there is really no point in doing anything more than it takes to maintain your size.

There is also no logical reason to think that if you are natural that you have to "train more". Steroids do not work because you train less or more. People who are natural always seem to try and condone what they do based on the opposite of what people who use steroids do. There is nothing wrong with mixing things up for fun sake if you enjoy training, but keep things in perspective and realize that what you are doing is not stimulating any new growth. People who are truely natural will never make any gains past a certain point and if they do it's bacause of drugs. I love how some of these so called naturals try and explain how they gained X amount of muscle for this years show after being natural for years. Well, last year I trained real hard this year I trained reeeeeally hard, I ate more protein, I slept more, I trained a new way. How bout I doubled my Anadrol dose.

I agree, but here is what I mean when I say Training More is better.

1. You achieve your best possible natural physique in a much shorter amount of time.
2. You Maintain your best possible shape.
3. You are able to eat a lot more calories.
4. Overall Health improves with more frequent training- Greater usage of Neural connections which prevent cognitive decline in later years as well as preventing Neuro-Muscular diseases. Improved VO2, improved blood flow. Lower resting heart rate, improved coordination (especially important as a person ages), Increased Bone Density etc...
5. If you ever fall out of shape, increasing your training to max frequency will put you back to your very best in a much shorter amount of time.

You can get by training less of course, but you may not get the optimum benefits of 1-5 in my opinion.

pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #171 on: September 14, 2011, 08:18:30 PM »
Complete bullshit in my opinion.  The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume.  There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion. 

You haven't tried Basile's 8hr/day ed training program

You can over do ANYTHING. You can even over do just staying awake. Even when you have no additional outside stress, both physical or mental, put on your body you still have to sleep every night to recover from the stress and energy required just to remain conscious and alive.

I'm surprise you would make such a blanket statement.
 

tbombz

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #172 on: September 14, 2011, 08:18:53 PM »
Just the opposite as they don't have the recovery ability as juiced guys have.
thats what intuition would lead you to but in my experience the best naturals are the guys who work out like crazy, going to failure every set, training 5-7 days a week.

i didnt quote your other post cuz i dont really disagree with anything you said i just think its better to stay away from failure and do more sets as oposed to trying to hit failure and doing one set.


pellius

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2011, 08:21:36 PM »
I find the complete opposite of that to be true. 

Well then, in the tradition of the Knights of Round table we shall fight and let God determine the victor and by default who is in the right.

Disgusted

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Re: Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »
 Concerning Adonis. I can't anyone on my Mac for someone reason. OK your 1-5 has little to do with muscle size so now you are talking about a totally different reason to train more. At this point it sounds like you are using the weights not for muscle growth but for other reasons. Lets talk about #4.

Overall Health improves with more frequent training- Greater usage of Neural connections which prevent cognitive decline in later years as well as preventing Neuro-Muscular diseases. Improved VO2, improved blood flow. Lower resting heart rate, improved coordination (especially important as a person ages), Increased Bone Density etc...

Using resistance training to prevent cognitive decline will do little to prevent brain function from declining. The nigrostriatal tract in the brain typically dies off at an average rate of 13% per decade starting at around age 45. The death rate of the brains neurons is inevitable. Once the nigral neuron population has dropped below 10% of its original number death ensues NO MATTER HOW HEALTHY  THE BODY! There are other ways to prevent this from happening that are way more effective than exercise. This is a whole different subject.