Disgusted - tell us about your training strategies

[First Blood]

Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.  

And in regards to training there are other variables you need to take into account a part from how long protein synthesis is elevated. Neural recovery etc (which is one reason why you don't wanna overdo it with failure training)

[Disgusted]

Failure is not a must for growth. Progressive tension overload is the main thing. In many cases failure training can be detrimental. But there is a lot of individual variation as to how much failure training you can handle. The break down and rebuild concept is flawed.

Agreed, failure is not a must. I used to go to failure years ago, I'm bigger now that that I don't.  

[Disgusted]

agreed.

maybe its beneficial to cycle between twice a week and once a week training. i know that with twice per week training my volume is very limited even though i dont go to failure (4-6 sets per body part). i could see doubling or tripling volume while decreasing frequency to once per week working good.

That actually sounds like a good idea. Main thing is keep it fun and interesting.

[D.O.U.P]

I agree with Jones when he said that you should do the absolute minimum the will give you OPTIMAL results. Anything more is wasted effort at best and counter productive at worse. The question is what is the absolute minimum required? What is optimal? It is my belief, for the recreational trainee, it is better to err on the side of under training rather than over training. With under training results come slower or not at all. With over training you are putting in extra effort to regress. When it gets to the point where you dread going to the gym you are going too much. You should think in terms of the long haul. I've been training with weights non stop for 39 years straight. I've stuck to a 3x/wk schedule for around the last 20 years. There's been times when I bump it up to 4x/wk (instead of chest/delts/tris I'd break it up to chest one day then delts/tris the next) but I'd soon get burnt out in a few weeks. I know that sounds strange and I'm not really doing more exercises as such. Just breaking a one day routine into a two day routine. But it seems to make a difference. With 3x/wk I can always grind through a workout because I know I get the next day off. And those two day rest after legs is always welcome.

I posted these in another thread as they were taken a couple of days ago. There was no prepping, dialing it in, dieting, pumping up, elaborate photo session. Just a couple of pics of my everyday walk around condition while I was debating with Basile in another thread.  I'm 51 years old now.

Good solid build.... Scrath that. Great build.

[Disgusted]

And in regards to training there are other variables you need to take into account a part from how long protein synthesis is elevated. Neural recovery etc (which is one reason why you don't wanna overdo it with failure training)

Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out your adrenal glands.

[cephissus]

Tbombz Even if this is true "your muscle only grows for 2-3 days after you train it." It doesn't mean that your muscle immediately start to shrink after 3 days. Also you need to take into account that you are getting secondary stimulus from doing other exercises.  

Excellent point!  This is another thing that is repeated everywhere.

I haven't lifted a weight in a month and a half and I'm not much smaller yet... makes you wonder how much we really need to work out...

[The_Leafy_Bug]

I was doing smith squats with 405 for 10 and as high as 475 for 6. I switched this week (my first week back since the show) to free weight and just started with 225 and i could really feel a huge difference in the amount of muscle fibers incorporated. My legs were burning for once so i think this year ill try to build my free weight squat to that level.

[cephissus]

Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out you adrenal glands.

Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue?  I think I might be affected by this.  I've had to stop lifting entirely.

[apply85]

I like the beyond failure approach to biceps and calves, actually with calves I go heavy as I can twice a week, maybe he only body part Ireally like to go heavy with

[First Blood]

It's great to discuss training with someone who has as much practical experience as Disgusted. I have been reading massive amounts of 'theory' but it's obvious to me that a lot of the research that is relevant for hypertrophy is flawed and of poor quality.

[cephissus]

I was doing smith squats with 405 for 10 and as high as 475 for 6. I switched this week (my first week back since the show) to free weight and just started with 225 and i could really feel a huge difference in the amount of muscle fibers incorporated. My legs were burning for once so i think this year ill try to build my free weight squat to that level.

I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way.  I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.

[tbombz]

That actually sounds like a good idea. Main thing is keep it fun and interesting. drug intake as high as possible

[First Blood]

Tell me about it. Years ago when I did the beyond failure stuff I felt like shit all the time. Hard to recover and could barely do anything other than lift. Good way to burn out your adrenal glands.

Exactly, as someone else mentioned in the thread you should feel energized after a workout not like you have been run over by a truck (most of the time). I believe in cycling heavier loading with a bit lighter loading. Accumulation - intensification as poliquin calls it (although he certainly didn't come up with the name or the concept).

[Disgusted]

Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue?  I think I might be affected by this.  I've had to stop lifting entirely.

Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully.  I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too.   Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.

[The_Leafy_Bug]

I imagine if you had been free squatting with 405 for years and went and did smith squat with 225 you'd feel the same way.  I bet after a couple sessions you'll feel no special extra result from free squatting.

Possible. My problem is i get addicted to the weight and when i plateau i don't change things. Even if im doing the same thing every week its hard to make me change. I like having a work out partner sometimes because i let them lead and usually don't care. It forces me to change things but im alone when i train 99% of the time.

[First Blood]

Can you tell me what the symptoms the symptoms are of adrenal fatigue?  I think I might be affected by this.  I've had to stop lifting entirely.

The 'usual' overtraining/overreaching symptoms. Lack of motivation, depression, irritability, joint pain, general tiredness, lack of results (or even regression) etc

edit: not necessarily all of them.

[tbombz]

Possible. My problem is i get addicted to the weight and when i plateau i don't change things. Even if im doing the same thing every week its hard to make me change. I like having a work out partner sometimes because i let them lead and usually don't care. It forces me to change things but im alone when i train 99% of the time.

back off the intensity and just do a few sets of low reps, then go back to your old training.. you should experience a bump in strength about 2 weeks after.

[cephissus]

It's great to discuss training with someone who has as much practical experience as Disgusted. I have been reading massive amounts of 'theory' but it's obvious to me that a lot of the research that is relevant for hypertrophy is flawed and of poor quality.

Whenever I read about training from an instructional document, whether written by some "guru" trying to push their system, or some scientific type trying to interpret a study, the same thing always occurs to me: the information is incomplete and worthless!  In the former case, these people have no ability to critically examine their experiences, and in the latter, the person seems to believe that because they are backing up their statements with "scientific studies" (usually an extremely specific study that says little to nothing) they can make make whatever inference they want.

in any case i think these people are too incautious, and unwittingly take many things for granted when writing their guides.  asking people for advice and observing their workouts as much as possible is going to help you far more.

[Disgusted]

Haha   Yeah after all these years I still love to lift. Drugs or no drugs in the end we have to enjoy it cause if not then it's all about the drugs.

[cephissus]

Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully.  I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too.   Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.

This describes me.  When you say "never fully went away," do you mean EVER or after you changed your workout style did it just take a long time to get back to normal?

Also are there any medical tests which can help discover things like this?

[The True Adonis]

From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are.  You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.

[First Blood]

Haha   Yeah after all these years I still love to lift. Drugs or no drugs in the end we have to enjoy it cause if not then it's all about the drugs.

Enjoy the journey  ...not just the end result.

[First Blood]

From a lifetime Natural point of view, the more you train, the better off you are.  You can get by on less and look very respectable, but you will have a MUCH better result and a lot faster by keeping in the 4-7 day a week range.

You need to find a balance. Not too little or too much...although in many cases it's best to err on the side of caution.

And as a natural you don't have the same margin of error as a hormonized lifter has.

[The True Adonis]

Well extreme fatigue like you feel after you've done one of those workouts but it never going away fully.  I was big into the Mentzer Jones Nautilus stuff years ago. I dreaded those workouts, but also loved them too.   Yeah I was mental back then. When I got done with one of those torture sessions I felt like I was hit by a truck, OK maybe more than one truck. This feeling never fully went away. Some days felt better than others, but for the most part just tired and I was in my teens and 20's back then so I should not have felt that way.

Each day I do the Adonis 100.

I train one bodypart a day and do 3-4 exercises 4 sets each and once I finish with that, I go to the first exercise I did and start with a little more weight than I did on my first set and the goal is to get to 100 reps, no matter how many sets it takes.  The weight is heavy enough to where I can just get 10-13 reps.

If I have to drop the weight a bit during the Adonis 100, I do it once I reach 25 reps.

I did it for squats today, after going very heavy, and I don`t think I have ever had a more difficult workout.

[The True Adonis]

You need to find a balance. Not too little or too much...although in many cases it's best to err on the side of caution.

And as a natural you don't have the same margin of error as a hormonized lifter has.

Complete bullshit in my opinion.  The VERY BEST Lifetime Naturals usually train 6-7 days a week, some even doing very high volume.  There is no such thing as Overtraining when it comes to weightlifting in my opinion.