The Afterlife

[pellius]

Some places can and will take it out of people checks if short and lets say they can't they can write them up for being short and if written up multiple times they can get fired for it so either way I don't want to contribute to that because it benefits me , and it all goes back to IT DOESN'T belong to me

Totally different than only being good because you're in fear and being ' watched ' by a God and fear eternal punishment in a pit of fire.

project much? who said I was anything special? how did you come to this conclusion? because I would return money that doesn't belong to me? when I was about 8 we went to the market and someone left their purse behind in a carriage my brother found it and took it to my mother , she found a lot of money inside and the woman's address on her ID , we went to her house and walked into the entry way and we heard a man screaming at a woman about that's all the money they had and she was crying hysterically , she knocked on the door returned the woman's money and needless to say it was her rent money that was due , she insisted my mother take a reward and she refused , this had an immense impact on me , this is part of the reason I wouldn't take money that belongs to me.

No fear or God needed to do the right thing

How did I come to that conclusion? Because how you portray yourself on this thread (not on others threads) is far above the norm. Most people today are very self absorbed, selfish, self-centered and look only after themselves. You claim to not be any of that. So by implication that makes you, in my opinion, very special. The trouble is that I've been reading your posts for years. I've been on this board for years and there are only a few people who strike as exceptionally good and decent. That Stuntmovie guy for one. BigBob is another. That Ursus guy. There was nothing about you the even hinted at exceptional decency and goodness. If what you claim about yourself is true then I was wrong -- horribly wrong.

But I don't think I am. I think you have stolen in the past, will steal in the future, will use people to satisfy your own desires. If you found $1,000 dollars in a paper bag you would not take it to the police station. You would keep it and keep your mouth shut about it. You, as you have in the past, make things up about yourself to either impress or convince others to whatever view you want. I even think you embellished that little story too to have more impact.

Right when you arrived at the door a man was screaming at the women that that was all the money they had. The rent money. The rent money that she for some reason she was carrying in her purse. The rent money in cash.

OK Narcissistic, whatever you say. If what you say it true, and God and you only know, then you're a saint.

Anyway, I've got to go to church now. Maybe I can one day be like you. And I'll remember not to carry the rent money around with me in cash.
  

 

[NarcissisticDeity]

How did I come to that conclusion? Because how you portray yourself on this thread (not on others threads) is far above the norm. Most people today are very self absorbed, selfish, self-centered and look only after themselves. You claim to not be any of that. So by implication that makes you, in my opinion, very special. The trouble is that I've been reading your posts for years. I've been on this board for years and there are only a few people who strike as exceptionally good and decent. That Stuntmovie guy for one. BigBob is another. That Ursus guy. There was nothing about you the even hinted at exceptional decency and goodness. If what you claim about yourself is true then I was wrong -- horribly wrong.

But I don't think I am. I think you have stolen in the past, will steal in the future, will use people to satisfy your own desires. If you found $1,000 dollars in a paper bag you would not take it to the police station. You would keep it and keep your mouth shut about it. You, as you have in the past, make things up about yourself to either impress or convince others to whatever view you want. I even think you embellished that little story too to have more impact.

Right when you arrived at the door a man was screaming at the women that that was all the money they had. The rent money. The rent money that she for some reason she was carrying in her purse. The rent money in cash.

OK Narcissistic, whatever you say. If what you say it true, and God and you only know, then you're a saint.

Anyway, I've got to go to church now. Maybe I can one day be like you. And I'll remember not to carry the rent money around with me in cash.
  

 

How did I come to that conclusion? Because how you portray yourself on this thread (not on others threads) is far above the norm. Most people today are very self absorbed, selfish, self-centered and look only after themselves. You claim to not be any of that. So by implication that makes you, in my opinion, very special. The trouble is that I've been reading your posts for years. I've been on this board for years and there are only a few people who strike as exceptionally good and decent. That Stuntmovie guy for one. BigBob is another. That Ursus guy. There was nothing about you the even hinted at exceptional decency and goodness. If what you claim about yourself is true then I was wrong -- horribly wrong.

You see what you want and if you're only basing what you see by what is typed on here then you must know you're missing a LOT more to people than what's typed on a message board , I know you can only go by what's typed but in the end it's not entirely accurate

But I don't think I am. I think you have stolen in the past, will steal in the future, will use people to satisfy your own desires. If you found $1,000 dollars in a paper bag you would not take it to the police station. You would keep it and keep your mouth shut about it. You, as you have in the past, make things up about yourself to either impress or convince others to whatever view you want. I even think you embellished that little story too to have more impact.

I don't think I ever said I was perfect and you're now turning this into a ad hominem attack , when the original point I was making is people can be moral without fear

Right when you arrived at the door a man was screaming at the women that that was all the money they had. The rent money. The rent money that she for some reason she was carrying in her purse. The rent money in cash.

OK Narcissistic, whatever you say. If what you say it true, and God and you only know, then you're a saint.

Anyway, I've got to go to church now. Maybe I can one day be like you. And I'll remember not to carry the rent money around with me in cash.

See now you're accusing me of lying , which I don't care but it makes you a hypocrite for just complaining about being serious and not having any snide remarks then you follow up with personal attacks , like I said you're not into a serious discussion you made up your mind already

Believe the story or not , I explained to you why I don't believe it's ever okay to steal ,  without fear of punishment and how this example had a profound impact on me that I remember to this day 33 years later and you don't like the response and decide it's a lie , great response  

Maybe you can be like me one day , where you wouldn't steal because you know it's wrong , instead of not doing it because you're being watched by a vengeful God and may be punished for it . I can be moral and decent without God can you?

[The Ugly]

ND, are you an atheist, or do you hate God?

[tbombz]

So what? Why should I care? People hurt me all the time? Where did this, your, morality come from? If I found my neighbor's wallet with $60.00 inside I'm going to keep it. He's already hurt that he lost his wallet. He'll never know it's me that found it. And if I don't keep it somebody else will. I would rather it be me. Sixty bucks is sixty buck. A nice vial of trenbolona that I wouldn't else have had. Plus, I need it more. And the guy's a dick. He deserves it.

 your giving me a headache. you need an authority to tell you what is right and wrong ? morality is based on how behavior affects others.  if the bible never said that, would you still agree?  if the bible said morality was based on personal pleasure, would you believe that ?  your saying that we cant know a behavior is immoral without making a reference to the bible...   its baffling..  so did those people who existed before the bible was written commit no sins? they didnt know what was right and wrong?  i could make this rebuttle better but ive got to be off to the gym now so i can make it to see my woman by the time she gets off work..  im looking forward to continuing this discussion later

[Sizwe]

Though coming from a Christian church going family, I was an agnostic (much to my parents horror) from my mid teens throughout my twenties. But at some point, when deciding how you want to live, what kind of man you want to be, you can't -- well at least I can't -- sit on the fence for the entirety of my life. At some point you have to take that leap of faith no matter what side you choose. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that I would be a different person had I chosen to believe that in the end it doesn't matter in this world if you are a good person or a bad person. But I would definitely have had a tendency to "sweep moral issues under the rug." I would be less honest and more selfish. I would do things if I could get away with it if it suited me. Like when the cashier owe me four dollars in change she mistakenly gave me three one dollar bills and a ten dollar bill. Atheist Pellius would have just kept the ten. Not my problem that the clerk is sloppy and I always prefer a ten dollar bill over a one. But religious Pellius asks himself that when he stands before God and has to account for his deeds how important will that ten dollars be now?

Excellent post. Pellius your posts are very refreshing on this board.

when the original point I was making is people can be moral without fear
Maybe you can be like me one day , where you wouldn't steal because you know it's wrong , instead of not doing it because you're being watched by a vengeful God and may be punished for it . I can be moral and decent without God can you?

Without God, being moral is what ever you decide is moral to you.
ND you can't win this, because if there is a God the Biblical morals will always be the "True North" and if there isn't, well then anything goes.
I think it's pointless going further in this debate unless you admit to this.

[tbombz]

ND you can't win this, because if there is a God the Biblical morals will always be the "True North" and if there isn't, well then anything goes.
I think it's pointless going further in this debate unless you admit to this.

no, if there is a god, the bible certainly was not written by him, its full of logical inconsistancies, historical inaccuracies, and flawed moral guidelines.  even if the bible was perfect, we still wouldnt know if it came from god and we would still have to think about things on our own and come to know right and wrong through our own cognition.. or else we really wouldnt know right from wrong at all. we would just be doing as were told.

[NarcissisticDeity]

ND, are you an atheist, or do you hate God?

I am an atheist and an antitheist , I don't hate ' God ' because to me there is no God , I hate the concept of God as described in the holy books

[NarcissisticDeity]

Excellent post. Pellius your posts are very refreshing on this board.
Without God, being moral is what ever you decide is moral to you.
ND you can't win this, because if there is a God the Biblical morals will always be the "True North" and if there isn't, well then anything goes.
I think it's pointless going further in this debate unless you admit to this.

No anything doesn't go , according to whom? I am proof of that to the contrary , I'm without God and manage to leave a live I don't have to be ashamed of or live in fear of being punished for

With God anything goes as long as you are repentant , I could murder someone in cold blood and be forgiven , I could be a serial rapist and still be forgiven ( if I'm sincere ) I could beat my kids , cheat on my wife and still after all that damage be in heaven .

Anything goes with God as well poor example

[Natural Man]

pellius laid the smackdown  enough for today, at this point it's wasting time and energy for no purpose with immature ignorant losers like ND , the ronnie coleman lover and tbombz the specialist of deep anal massages.

At the end of the day, to each his choices and their consequences.

[Natural Man]

no, if there is a god, the bible certainly was not written by him, its full of logical inconsistancies, historical inaccuracies, and flawed moral guidelines.  even if the bible was perfect, we still wouldnt know if it came from god and we would still have to think about things on our own and come to know right and wrong through our own cognition.. or else we really wouldnt know right from wrong at all. we would just be doing as were told.

You re so dumb ... so ignorant, it's staggering.

[NarcissisticDeity]

pellius layed the smackdown  enough for today, at this point it's wasting time and energy for no purpose with immature ignorant losers like ND , the ronnie coleman lover and tbombz the specialist of deep anal massages.

At the end of the day, to each his choices and their consequences.

He laid the smackdown ?  ad hominem attacks are the last ditched effort of the intellectually bankrupt , he admitted he's amoral and only behaving out of fear and being watched , he lamented about snide remarks and returns by calling me a liar , he admitted he already had a predetermined conclusion and wanted a ' serious discussion ' , he outright dismissed facts.

On second thought I agree he did lay the smack down but it was on himself    like you , he was in way over his head before he began and was already looking for a way out.

[Sizwe]

Pellius laid the smackdown.
 

[OTHstrong]

Excellent post. Pellius your posts are very refreshing on this board.
Without God, being moral is what ever you decide is moral to you.
ND you can't win this, because if there is a God the Biblical morals will always be the "True North" and if there isn't, well then anything goes.
I think it's pointless going further in this debate unless you admit to this.

ND is a clever man, however I feel he plays dumb all the time and thinks everyone will cater to his illogical way of thinking by producing a pattern as an example to camouflage the real truth.

Arguing that an average atheist could have as much moral values as an average Christian is not only wrong but outrageously wrong, clearly he hasn't studied history enough, ya very easy to point out the cruelty that Christians have caused, Let's review some of the ancient trend created by nonbelievers in a Creator, Canaanite nations-1300-1000BC, sacrificing human children's to a worthless statues, Egypt 1500-1000 BC whipping human workers as if they were animals, Assyrian Empire 900BC-600 BC- public displaying of humans being boiled Alive and Public flaying, this was done after a battle, often random prisoners of war where picked for this randomly. Babylonian Empire 500BC Mandatory military laws for 14 and 15 year old, Greco-Roman periods of 300-50BC massive amounts of sexual immorality, orgies and homosexuality. When you have God-fearing nation alot of these barbarias behaviour goes out the window.

funny how you say you wouldn't behave in a certain manner because of your values, when literally you are the only generation that can claim this as opposed to previous generation when non-Christain nations had put cut off heads by the dozens on the end of sharp sticks and scatter them randomly across their city in order to bring obedience, well I rather not misbehave out of fear of a God then fear of a public authority to boil me alive or crucify me.

If you study your history, you certainly wouldn't argue your silly point, while there is barbarias behavior among Christan nations, it is overwhelmingly obvious that the behaviour of a non'Christain nation is tenfold in cruelty

[NarcissisticDeity]

ND is a clever man, however I feel he plays dumb all the time and thinks everyone will cater to his illogical way of thinking by producing a pattern as an example to camouflage the real truth.

Arguing that an average atheist could have as much moral values as an average Christian is not only wrong but outrageously wrong, clearly he hasn't studied history enough, ya very easy to point out the cruelty that Christians have caused, Let's review some of the ancient trend created by nonbelievers in a Creator, Canaanite nations-1300-1000BC, sacrificing human children's to a worthless statues, Egypt 1500-1000 BC whipping human workers as if they were animals, Assyrian Empire 900BC-600 BC- public displaying of humans being boiled Alive and Public flaying, this was done after a battle, often random prisoners of war where picked for this randomly. Babylonian Empire 500BC Mandatory military laws for 14 and 15 year old, Greco-Roman periods of 300-50BC massive amounts of sexual immorality, orgies and homosexuality. When you have God-fearing nation alot of these barbarias behaviour goes out the window.

funny how you say you wouldn't behave in a certain manner because of your values, when literally you are the only generation that can claim this as opposed to previous generation when non-Christain nations had put cut off heads by the dozens on the end of sharp sticks and scatter them randomly across their city in order to bring obedience, well I rather not misbehave out of fear of a God then fear of a public authority to boil me alive or crucify me.

If you study your history, you certainly wouldn't argue your silly point, while there is barbarias behavior among Christan nations, it is overwhelmingly obvious that the behaviour of a non'Christain nation is tenfold in cruelty

The point I was trying to make was religion hasn't cornered the market on morals. I'm not amoral because I'm an atheist and I'm not moral because I am one

[OTHstrong]

The point I was trying to make was religion hasn't cornered the market on morals. I'm not amoral because I'm an atheist and I'm not moral because I am one

I agree with what you are saying above 100%, but when you measure averages there is no comparison

[pellius]

 your giving me a headache. you need an authority to tell you what is right and wrong ? morality is based on how behavior affects others.  if the bible never said that, would you still agree?  if the bible said morality was based on personal pleasure, would you believe that ?  your saying that we cant know a behavior is immoral without making a reference to the bible...   its baffling..  so did those people who existed before the bible was written commit no sins? they didnt know what was right and wrong?  i could make this rebuttle better but ive got to be off to the gym now so i can make it to see my woman by the time she gets off work..  im looking forward to continuing this discussion later

As you are well aware, I don't exactly hold you in high regard. I find you insufferably arrogant and very full of yourself. Also, I think you live an immoral life style and you are very blase and cavalier about it. But, in regard to these issues, issues that I take very seriously, i.e., how do we create good people? I put aside as much as I can personal feelings as you come across as sincere and genuine. Unlike other issues, here, as in the past similar discussions, you seem open to an honest debate and seem to instinctively refrain from gratuitous insults. Therefore I will show you the respect you deserve.

Tbombz, what I am saying is simply that if you don't have a value system outside of yourself. An outside authority you are held accountable to, then you, ultimately, only have to answer to yourself. How could it be any other way? You either answer to yourself or to someone else? Now, it doesn't mean that if you become your own moral system of justice, essentially your own God, that you will automatically become a bad person. It really depends on your nature. For my part, I don't trust human nature. Therefore, a value system outside of the often very elastic and whimsical nature of man I believe creates a better human being. Not always. Nothing is always. If a child grows up with very permissive parents it doesn't guarantee that he will be a spoiled, self-centered person. It just makes it more likely than if he had some supervision and moral guard rails.

Let me ask you a simple question and I have to trust you on your honor to be honest. It's not a trick question but sometimes a discussion doesn't always have to be about who is right and who is wrong. Who wins and who loses. But about clarity. Being clear as to each other's position and perhaps coming to a mutual understanding rather than agreement.

Say you were in a bad part of town very late at night alone walking across a deserted dark parking lot to get your car. Now coming towards you is about  a half dozen young adult males (late teens early twenties) of various ethnic origins. Would a caution light go off in you? Doesn't have to be fear or great alarm but sort of a code yellow. That you better be a little bit more on your toes then if they weren't there coming towards you. That if you were just alone. If so, why? If not, why not? 

 

[pellius]

no, if there is a god, the bible certainly was not written by him, its full of logical inconsistancies, historical inaccuracies, and flawed moral guidelines.  even if the bible was perfect, we still wouldnt know if it came from god and we would still have to think about things on our own and come to know right and wrong through our own cognition.. or else we really wouldnt know right from wrong at all. we would just be doing as were told.

Tbombz, please understand, we are talking about matters of faith. I cannot prove or disprove the existence of God any more than you can. We are not talking about what we know but about what we believe and what will make for better people and therefore a better world.

You're young, you have not live through and witnesses the gradual degradation of our culture as it has gotten more secular and permissive. When I was sixteen the big score was did you get a kiss on your date. If a girl got pregnant in high school it was a big deal and a source of disgrace and dishonor. Often she was pulled out of school and sent away. The idea of a couple living together unmarried was considered scandalous and was referred to as living in sin. There was this long lost concept that kept people in line, and it wasn't laws or the police, it was a  concept  called stigma. If you cheated on your wife, got pregnant, got arrested for stealing, and, yes, even if you were unemployed and a healthy adult male living on the dole, you were stigmatized, a source of embarrassment, and often shunned. You bore the mark of the scarlet letter. "That's the boy who was caught stealing," your parents would point out. "That family is living off welfare." "She's only sixteen and still in high school and this happens. I feel so sorry for her parents."

And it mattered in those days. In those days people also had another trait that has long ago disappeared as the culture revolution of the early 70s began to take hold and blossom by the 1990s. And that was a sense of shame. President Clinton pretty much sealed the fate in helping to create an utter shameless culture.

When I was your age people wouldn't even dream of posting some of the stuff you post on this board. Putting you private and intensely personal life on full public display. There use to be a sense of propriety -- another long since dead concept. The concept that there is a time and place for everything. When it is proper and appropriate and when it is not. Propriety.

   

[Reeves]

Pellius, my fellow seasoned citizen, it is true that all too often, that which is unnatural is unfortunately nothing more than human nature.  This describes tbombz penchant for being assfucked.  He will call wrong, right and all in the name of doing what he wants to do. 

Personally I don't believe in God but I do think there is a great deal of wisdom contained in the Bible, especially so the New Testament.  But what of the muslime's queeron, the lds's book of moron or  the krishna's bhagavad gita and srimad bhagavatan to name but a few "religious" texts?  Fuck that noise. 

[pellius]

See, it doesn't work that way for me. I still believe in right and wrong, because that's how I was raised, and I just feel better doing the right thing. Call it what you will. I definitely empathize with my fellow human being.

That, or I'm just a lazy atheist.

Do you have any children? If so, how old? And are either or both of your parents still alive?

[pellius]

Pellius, my fellow seasoned citizen, it is true that all too often, that which is unnatural is unfortunately nothing more than human nature.  This describes tbombz penchant for being assfucked.  He will call wrong, right and all in the name of doing what he wants to do. 

Personally I don't believe in God but I do think there is a great deal of wisdom contained in the Bible, especially so the New Testament.  But what of the muslime's queeron, the lds's book of moron or  the krishna's bhagavad gita and srimad bhagavatan to name but a few "religious" texts?  Fuck that noise. 

Actually, it is not his sexual proclivities that I necessarily take issue with, but the fact that he feels the need to put it on public display. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "that which is unnatural is unfortunately nothing more than human nature." A pedophile is attracted to prepubescent children. This is part of his nature. Is it human nature or a sickness or an aberration? True homosexuality, specifically a male being sexually attracted to another male, is relatively rare. Maybe about 2% of the population. But as a behavior becomes more accepted and common place and even encourage and glorified you are going to have more of it. One will engage in homosexuality because it has now become chic. You don't necessarily have be sexually attracted to other males to engage in homosexual behavior as proven routinely in our prisons. In ancient Greece, taking on a ten year old boy as a sexual toy was part of the culture and the men didn't consider themselves homosexuals. If you grew up in a culture where this was common place and didn't know anything else you would think this was quite normal behavior as well. Same for sacrificing virgins to a God. Is this part of human nature?   

[garebear]

Come on, my friend, please. Do you want to have a serious discussion? Are we talking Muslims? Do I even have to comment on this?  Muslims?

Slavery existed EVERYWHERE throughout history. What distinguished Western society, the United Sates, is that we fought a war to end it. The Quakers, Christians, played a huge role in the anti-slavery movement.

And the percentage Priest molesting children is not any higher, and in fact lower, then the general population of males except that it gets reported more.

Do I have to make a list of evil done by secularist and got tit for tat? Heard of Communism? Nazism? Fascism? I got you on dead bodies by far.

Friend, I already made it abundantly clear that I know there are many good and decent atheist and many rotten theist. The point I was trying to make was that if you believe you have to answer to somebody. That you will be held accountable for your behavior. This will have an impact on how you behave. Not 100% of the time and not 100% for everybody. Nothing is 100%.  Just like having strict supervision from a parent isn't going to guarantee good behavior from your children it's just going to make it more likely. I know for myself that I have been kept on the straight and narrow many times because I believe that one day I will have to account for myself. All the things that I think are so important and so want in life: wealth, fame, popularity, respect, happiness, accomplishment... will matter very little when I stand before God. He isn't going to ask how big my house was, what kind of car did I drive, was my girl friend hot, how big my muscles were, how much money did I have, was I popular and did people like me.... none of that will matter. It keeps things in perspective for me.

Remember that scene in The Green Mile where Tom Hanks may have to execute a man he believes is innocent? He has to do it, right? It's his job. So when he stands before God and is asked why he killed an innocent man what is Hank's character going to say? "It was my job?"

Here it is. It's just the first 20 seconds of the clip.  You can always justify any type of behavior when you just have to answer to yourself. "It was my job"

You need to educate yourself. I can see a serious dearth of information spewing forth from your keyboard.

When people set their piety upon reward, it is always hollow, and they fall from it the furthest.

When they recognize that they are mammals and must live with other mammals, we are destined to be better off.

Try reading what Frederick Douglas has to say about the more devout Christians in the time of slaver, and then come back and talk to m e.

You cherry pick from religion like a total idiot. You come off incredibly weak and stupid.

[pellius]

You need to educate yourself. I can see a serious dearth of information spewing forth from your keyboard.

When people set their piety upon reward, it is always hollow, and they fall from it the furthest.

When they recognize that they are mammals and must live with other mammals, we are destined to be better off.

Try reading what Frederick Douglas has to say about the more devout Christians in the time of slaver, and then come back and talk to m e.

You cherry pick from religion like a total idiot. You come off incredibly weak and stupid.

I believe the good should be rewarded and the bad punished. Is that hollow? Forget about the after life. What should we do with people who do bad? Hurt other people? Steal from them? Damage their property?

What should we do with people who do good? Who make other people's lives better? Create products that enhances the quality of their life? Say a medication that relives pain? A cheaper more powerful computer? Who provides entertainment and laughter? Who writes books and novels that move and touch other people? Develops automobiles that are safer, more durable, get more miles to the gallon? Protect people from harm?
 

[OTHstrong]

You need to educate yourself. I can see a serious dearth of information spewing forth from your keyboard.

When people set their piety upon reward, it is always hollow, and they fall from it the furthest.

When they recognize that they are mammals and must live with other mammals, we are destined to be better off.

Try reading what Frederick Douglas has to say about the more devout Christians in the time of slaver, and then come back and talk to m e.

You cherry pick from religion like a total idiot. You come off incredibly weak and stupid.

Are you capable of keeping this thread civilized? if so,... then let me start by stating that your post is rather narrow minded or maybe I understood it wrong, but if you are implying that we are nothing more then mammals, well. Can other mammals pray spiritually, can other mammals create a scientific environment, can they learn to read or write, can other mammals be aware that the earth is round or that we travel around he sun, can mammals have ambition or distinguished hobbies, can mammals have empathy for other mammals outside of their kind, would a mammal bury their dead for moral reasons, billions of distinctions of humans being incredibly unique, hardly a result of evolution, otherwise at least one other species would have evolved at least 1 human trait, right?

[tbombz]

you live an immoral life style and you are very blase and cavalier about it.

 
morality is based on how behavior affects others.  sex and drugs are not immoral though they may be unwise.   

Tbombz, what I am saying is simply that if you don't have a value system outside of yourself. An outside authority you are held accountable to, then you, ultimately, only have to answer to yourself. How could it be any other way? You either answer to yourself or to someone else? Now, it doesn't mean that if you become your own moral system of justice, essentially your own God, that you will automatically become a bad person. It really depends on your nature. For my part, I don't trust human nature. Therefore, a value system outside of the often very elastic and whimsical nature of man I believe creates a better human being. Not always. Nothing is always. If a child grows up with very permissive parents it doesn't guarantee that he will be a spoiled, self-centered person. It just makes it more likely than if he had some supervision and moral guard rails.

Let me ask you a simple question and I have to trust you on your honor to be honest. It's not a trick question but sometimes a discussion doesn't always have to be about who is right and who is wrong. Who wins and who loses. But about clarity. Being clear as to each other's position and perhaps coming to a mutual understanding rather than agreement.

Say you were in a bad part of town very late at night alone walking across a deserted dark parking lot to get your car. Now coming towards you is about  a half dozen young adult males (late teens early twenties) of various ethnic origins. Would a caution light go off in you? Doesn't have to be fear or great alarm but sort of a code yellow. That you better be a little bit more on your toes then if they weren't there coming towards you. That if you were just alone. If so, why? If not, why not? 

 

where do you get a value system outside of yourself? how do you know its the right value system? you have to think on your own and come to conclusions about what is right and wrong. what is wrong is intentionally/knowingly hurting another being.

ill continue this post later

[OTHstrong]

 
morality is based on how behavior affects others.  sex and drugs are not immoral though they may be unwise.   


 where do you get a value system outside of yourself? how do you know its the right value system? you have to think on your own and come to conclusions about what is right and wrong. what is wrong is intentionally/knowingly hurting another being.

ill continue this post later

Tbombs, I think you are extremely smart and are definately open minded, I actually enjoy reading your posts................BUT WITH A STATEMENT LIKE THAT...................

........................ ...............i AM TAKING YOU TO THE NUTHOUSE.