Author Topic: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!  (Read 24962 times)

tbombz

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2012, 05:44:10 PM »
here's what i think:

logic is subjective.  when people talk about objective facts, or truth, they're really talking about strong beliefs... beliefs which win out over the weak "subjective" beliefs of people who are "wrong"


logic is not subjective.

2+2=4.


 if all A's are B
and C is an A
 then  C is a B


objective facts, not strong beliefs.  


i've had this thought (A) too.  when i was a kid i thought "jeez, why am i a christian?  i could have just as easily been born into a muslim family, or two thousand years ago, or ten thousand years in the future, into a society where no one is a christian..."  on the other hand, i wasn't.  and from this same disembodied perspective, if someone hates me and wants to harm me, i can understand that.  and i hope they can understand when i hate and choose to harm them, too.  if not, oh well! :D

understanding is good, but ill will is not. this is basic and fundamental.  

why do we need to minimize each other's pain?  why should i care about the general good?  after all, it's clear that not everyone will operate with my interest in mind, so why should i bend over backwards to meet their needs?

you dont do the right thing because you want others to do the right thing, you do it simply because its the right thing.

"love thy neighbor" ... as long as he behaves.  if it gives him pleasure to do something "against the greater good," which is the same as "immoral" in this case, then we must hurt him until he obeys?  And if he does, the common good is satisfied?  A society 3 parts happy, 2 parts grumbling dissenters?

no, love your neighbor regardless of how he behaves. if he strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other (give him your other cheek to strike as well). if someone asks you to go a mile with them, go 5. Do not deny the one who asks of you.  

there is no common good.  a situation that is good for one is not good for another.

no. when you do right , you feel good. no matter what short term benefits you get from doing wrong in the long run you will suffer more negative effects. a pure conscience is worth more than all the treasures in the world.  what is good for one, is good for all.

no comment on this one.

you said you disagreed that morality based based on how you treat others.

but in reality it seems you just dont believe in the existence of morality at all.

in truth, if moral systems foundation isnt upon the treatment of others then its completely meaningless.

Necrosis

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2012, 05:58:55 PM »


i didnt say thats what i believed was the case, i was simply offering that aa a plausible solution. but i have no problem accepting that all living christians, all living people for that matter, are immature. i doubt theres a single living sould who has the will to remain unconditionally positive, loving, and empathetic towards everyone and everything including themself day in and day out. thats a tough task.

what makes that scenario plausible? its complete conjecture, you have no evidence and you just made up a situation, it could just as likely god doesnt like twitter and killed her for this reason.

or perhaps its more plausible that people die randomly  (as it appears) and she just happened to tweet about god before dying, nothing more nothing less. Your scenario also assumes people starving in africa that die at the age of 3 and mature, empathetic and honest, such that they get to go to heaven. Hitler went at an early age to, perhaps he reached self-actualization.

johnnynoname

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2012, 05:59:07 PM »
but why protest so on somany boards

"The promotion of metrosexuality was left to the men's style press, magazines such as The Face, GQ, Esquire, Arena and FHM, the new media which took off in the Eighties and is still growing (GQ gains 10,000 new readers every month). They filled their magazines with images of narcissistic young men sporting fashionable clothes and accessories. And they persuaded other young men to study them with a mixture of envy and desire.

Some people said unkind things. American GQ, for example, was popularly dubbed ''Gay Quarterly''. Little wonder that all these magazines — with the possible exception of The Face — address their metrosexual readership as if none of them were homosexual or even bisexual.
—Mark Simpson, "Here come the mirror men," The Independent, November 15, 1994 "







YOU SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH!!!


I'm a real man who loves women and I love the vagina area

johnnynoname

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2012, 06:02:14 PM »
I know I'm not gay because one time while making a salad a cucumber went up my ass.......THREE TIMES


And I didn't like it

Nirvana

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2012, 06:03:21 PM »

tbombz

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2012, 06:03:44 PM »
what makes that scenario plausible? its complete conjecture, you have no evidence and you just made up a situation, it could just as likely god doesnt like twitter and killed her for this reason.

or perhaps its more plausible that people die randomly  (as it appears) and she just happened to tweet about god before dying, nothing more nothing less. Your scenario also assumes people starving in africa that die at the age of 3 and mature, empathetic and honest, such that they get to go to heaven. Hitler went at an early age to, perhaps he reached self-actualization.

certainly would appear that way (that it happens randomly)

i was responding to TA, who was making the argument that god didnt exist because if he did exist he wouldnt let a girl die right after showing him thanks.

that was just one scenario

in fact i was much much too specific and i left my scenario open to criticism, as you showed above by giving examples of people who died when they most likely hadnt reached self actualization.

it would be better to just point out that if god exists death isnt a bad thing, and therefore the girl dying after thanking god would not be a sign god didnt exist or that god is evil.


although i could refute those objections you made to my original scenario. maybe in his last days hitler experienced a huge turnaround in conscience after realizing his defeat. maybe hitler was passed the point of no return and he had no chance of self actualization if he remained living. maybe the african child who dies at 2 months old already, in his head, has fully reached self actualization.


of course, i think it more likely things usually happen randomly.

cephissus

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2012, 06:15:41 PM »
you said you disagreed that morality based based on how you treat others.

but in reality it seems you just dont believe in the existence of morality at all.

in truth, if moral systems foundation isnt upon the treatment of others then its completely meaningless.

morality exists, it's a conception of right and wrong.

as for the rest of your post:

1.  logic is a function of a brain.  it exists inside your mind.  the statement 2 + 2 = 4 has no meaning, or even existence, outside of a mind.  this is pretty much the definition of subjective.

2.  it's easy to get caught up in "objective facts," because some things seem irrefutable.  nonetheless, every method we have of verifying something is subjective, there is no "independent viewpoint" because every view is attached to someone.  you can't "get around" yourself in the attempt to verify a fact.

3.  you say "when you do right, you feel good," "a pure conscience is worth more than all the treasures in the world," and "what is good for one, is good for all."  However, different people have different constitutions, and consequently feel good in different circumstances.  Murder might make one person feel terrible, and another feel great -- it might even make the first person feel great depending on the circumstances.  People's consciences also differ.  Some people's consciences make them physically ill when forced to lie, some people do it without suffering the slightest bad feeling.  Consequently, what is good for one is not good for all.  The concept "taste" was created to reflect this fact.  We readily accept people having different taste in food, fashion, culture, women, etc., even sexuality! so why not morality -- or, taste in right and wrong -- as well?

4.  as for "love your neighbor" thanks for the reiteration but I understand the concept... my qualm is with the application.  even jesus, who preached "turning the other cheek" drove the profiteers from the temple grounds in a fit of rage.  certainly he cast a dark cloud over their day.  didn't he realize they were having so much fun, ripping people off and desecrating the lord's home?  sure, he made a lot of fans that day, but only at the expense of others' wellbeing.  He made these people feel bad, cut into their profits, and sent them packing, violently!

"love your neighbor" and "do unto others" are just slick ways of convincing people to accept your morals.  those who espouse these mantras just want everything their way (like everyone else), and refuse to acknowledge the fact that different people have different ideas of right and wrong, etc.  someone might get into a fight with me, and I cry out "do unto others!"  he could easily, and very truthfully respond, "I WANT you to fight me!"

in reality, people think more along the lines of: "love your neighbor" unless he "doesnt do unto you, as you wish he would," and then gang up with enough like minded people that suddenly they've created an entire culture which ostracizes and punishes those with "bad" (ie different) values in the name of the "greater good" (ie the good of the mob).  It's no different than "might makes right" though people wish it were so...

tbombz

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2012, 06:42:27 PM »
morality exists, it's a conception of right and wrong.


right and wrong is based on how your actions effect others.


as for the rest of your post:

1.  logic is a function of a brain.  it exists inside your mind.  the statement 2 + 2 = 4 has no meaning, or even existence, outside of a mind.  this is pretty much the definition of subjective.

2 rocks sit next to 2 other rocks. there are 4 rocks. there doesnt have to be a mind present for this to be fact. logic is not only a function of the brain, logic is the expression of absolutes. subjective means that to one person it can be wrong, but to anothe rperson it can be right. logic is infallible, completely objective. 2+2 always =4. 

2.  it's easy to get caught up in "objective facts," because some things seem irrefutable.  nonetheless, every method we have of verifying something is subjective, there is no "independent viewpoint" because every view is attached to someone.  you can't "get around" yourself in the attempt to verify a fact.

what you mean to say is that we can not accomplish absolute certain truth about the nature or existence of anything in the universe. this is accurate. to say that our methods of verification are subjective is not. if we see something, we saw it. it doesnt matter if nayone else sees it or not, we saw it, and nothing can change that.

3.  you say "when you do right, you feel good," "a pure conscience is worth more than all the treasures in the world," and "what is good for one, is good for all."  However, different people have different constitutions, and consequently feel good in different circumstances.  Murder might make one person feel terrible, and another feel great -- it might even make the first person feel great depending on the circumstances.  People's consciences also differ.  Some people's consciences make them physically ill when forced to lie, some people do it without suffering the slightest bad feeling.  Consequently, what is good for one is not good for all.  The concept "taste" was created to reflect this fact.  We readily accept people having different taste in food, fashion, culture, women, etc., even sexuality! so why not morality -- or, taste in right and wrong -- as well?

people come form different backrounds and thus have different conceptions of right and wrong.. over time everyone moves closer to the same conception. empathy, honesty, universal love. that is the basis for moral action. if someone disagrees, they are wrong in the universal sense, though based on the information they have avilable to them they may not be wrong in their own head.

4.  as for "love your neighbor" thanks for the reiteration but I understand the concept... my qualm is with the application.  even jesus, who preached "turning the other cheek" drove the profiteers from the temple grounds in a fit of rage.  certainly he cast a dark cloud over their day.  didn't he realize they were having so much fun, ripping people off and desecrating the lord's home?  sure, he made a lot of fans that day, but only at the expense of others' wellbeing.  He made these people feel bad, cut into their profits, and sent them packing, violently!

i dont take scripture literally. i quoted those passages because they cut to the heart of the matter. whether jesus actually existed, i know not. if he did exist, and he was the son of god, then he did  not act in the manner he reportedly acted in in that temple. if he wasnt the son of god, he may have.

"love your neighbor" and "do unto others" are just slick ways of convincing people to accept your morals.  those who espouse these mantras just want everything their way (like everyone else), and refuse to acknowledge the fact that different people have different ideas of right and wrong, etc.  someone might get into a fight with me, and I cry out "do unto others!"  he could easily, and very truthfully respond, "I WANT you to fight me!"

but he doesnt actually want to get beaten up! or maybe he thinks he does. part of that mantra "do unto others" is an assumption that you want others to treat you with love and respect. some people have low self esteem, or other issues, and dont think they want that. this is besides the point. the idea is that you are to love everyone. this is not a way of trying to have it your way, because you must love everyone as well. its not that everyone must love me, its that i must love everyone regardless of whether they love me or not. 

in reality, people think more along the lines of: "love your neighbor" unless he "doesnt do unto you, as you wish he would," and then gang up with enough like minded people that suddenly they've created an entire culture which ostracizes and punishes those with "bad" (ie different) values in the name of the "greater good" (ie the good of the mob).  It's no different than "might makes right" though people wish it were so...

true enough.. and its sad. but people mature as they age. society has been progressing.  i hope you dont think you just made an argument for subjective morality. because then you have to accept someone who believes rape and murder are good things, who believes people of your skin color and your color of eyes should be imprisoned, thinks helping others is the sign of great wickedness and forces those who do so to live in poverty.. etc. morality is most deifnitely not subjective and while we should be tolerant of everyone and love them unconcitionally we should not accept their beleifs as valid if they are not so.



daddy8ball

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2012, 06:56:11 PM »
I like how TA makes fun of religious people. It's funny.

Let's take a look of science vs. religion.

SCIENCE: THERE WAS NOTHING..AND THEN BANG!!!! WHOLE UNIVERSE HAPPENED.

RELIGION: THERE WAS NOTHING..AND THEN BANG!!!! GOD CREATED IT.

That about sums it up. I don't see the big difference. Do you?

The answer is "yes".

cephissus

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2012, 07:22:16 PM »
2 rocks sit next to 2 other rocks. there are 4 rocks. there doesnt have to be a mind present for this to be fact. logic is not only a function of the brain, logic is the expression of absolutes. subjective means that to one person it can be wrong, but to anothe rperson it can be right. logic is infallible, completely objective. 2+2 always =4. 

How do you know there are four rocks?  You see them, and count them.  You use your eyes and brain.  There's no getting around it.  You are the subject who verifies all of your "objective" observations.  At bottom, no matter how many people agree with you, it's subjective.

Logical expressions are "always right" because they deal only with abstractions, or concepts, not "real things."

cephissus

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2012, 07:27:30 PM »
I like how TA makes fun of religious people. It's funny.

Let's take a look of science vs. religion.

SCIENCE: THERE WAS NOTHING..AND THEN BANG!!!! WHOLE UNIVERSE HAPPENED.

RELIGION: THERE WAS NOTHING..AND THEN BANG!!!! GOD CREATED IT.

That about sums it up. I don't see the big difference. Do you?



has practically nothing to do with this.  it has to do with people's beliefs, and consequently behaviors.  a lot of people don't enjoy, for example, being subject to christians who force them to go against every fiber of their being.  just ask a homosexual who grew up with strict, bible-believing parents how much fun their life was.

but plenty of people believe just as religiously in "scientific facts" as christians do the bible... which results in the sad, but often hilarious debates between two "sides" which, as you've noticed, are often far too similar for their own comfort.

tbombz

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2012, 07:46:37 PM »
How do you know there are four rocks?  You see them, and count them.  You use your eyes and brain.  There's no getting around it.  You are the subject who verifies all of your "objective" observations.  At bottom, no matter how many people agree with you, it's subjective.

Logical expressions are "always right" because they deal only with abstractions, or concepts, not "real things."
lmao.

no dude. if there are 4 rocks, there are 4 rocks. it doesnt matter whether i know they are there or not.


2+2=4, it always equals 4, it never equaled anything other than four, and it doesnt matter if every lving organism in the entire universe dies tomorrow it will still equal 4.

same applies to every other kind of logic.  

logic is not subjective ! (and neither is morality)


wes

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2012, 07:51:21 PM »

aesthetics

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2012, 07:56:01 PM »
3
 i believe in god, i believe god is omnipotent and perfect, and i fully trust in gods judgement, and i think god loves everyone and wants everyone to love eachother, therefore i want to do what i think is gods will..

theres more, i cant recall everything ive meditated on at the moment.. ill try to add more as they come back to me..


i agree, and so do most people even if they don't realize it.

God is real, everyone in their heart knows it to be true as do they feels the need for a god to give their lives meaning, purpose, and structure. atheists just replace one god for another, replace it with science and replace the priests with scientists and scholars.

aesthetics

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2012, 07:56:42 PM »
lmao.

no dude. if there are 4 rocks, there are 4 rocks. it doesnt matter whether i know they are there or not.


2+2=4, it always equals 4, it never equaled anything other than four, and it doesnt matter if every lving organism in the entire universe dies tomorrow it will still equal 4.

same applies to every other kind of logic.  

logic is not subjective ! (and neither is morality)



also agreed, 2+2 always equals 4, hence it is a fact. 2+2= fact.

 8)

cephissus

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2012, 08:00:04 PM »
lmao.

no dude. if there are 4 rocks, there are 4 rocks. it doesnt matter whether i know they are there or not.


2+2=4, it always equals 4, it never equaled anything other than four, and it doesnt matter if every lving organism in the entire universe dies tomorrow it will still equal 4.

same applies to every other kind of logic.  

logic is not subjective ! (and neither is morality)



How do you know there are four rocks?  ::)

wes

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2012, 08:01:34 PM »

Stavios

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2012, 10:42:58 PM »

ABSOLUTELY


......also, I never ever have thought of Alfonso Riberio while getting mouth sex from a domican girl a couple years back
;D

NordicNerd

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2012, 02:24:04 AM »
How do you know there are four rocks?  You see them, and count them.  You use your eyes and brain.  There's no getting around it.  You are the subject who verifies all of your "objective" observations.  At bottom, no matter how many people agree with you, it's subjective.

Logical expressions are "always right" because they deal only with abstractions, or concepts, not "real things."

The classic solipsistic argument. You are right in that there is no "objective" truth, nor "objective" reality that is accessible to us.

However, the rocks are convergently available to us through vision, somatosensation, hearing (if clanked together), smell (yes!), and even taste. Other people will agree with you 100% about the existence of the rocks and most of the properties of the rocks.

Further, the rocks can be measured and examined by way of apparatus such as weights, imaging through magnetism and radiation, etc. Finally, the rocks can be manipulated in different ways and the way the rocks behave can be described formally through chemistry, physics, mechanics etc.

The point is, the rocks behave as predicted, formally described, and do so in ways that intersubjectively is consistent.

Most modern scientist describe themselves as "moderate realists". By this they agree with you that the world is not accessible by other means than our sensory and cognitive systems, but that we can describe the world in ways that reliably capture some of its properties, tranceding our subjective opinions.

This is quite different from religion. In religion the question is not whether there are 4 rocks. There are hundreds of religions. The don't agree whether there IS a god, what the properties of "god" is, how many gods there are, what gods rules are (if there are rules). Basically, religion is chaos, social manipulation of the stupid and needy, and opinion where there are no facts. Religion is fantasy.

NN

BigCyp

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »
Oh look... it's atruepenis and his rants against Christianity again.

I will keep my eyes peeled for the next time an atheist says "Im grateful for another year" and dies...that would be really hilarous and amazing. ::)

Tito24

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2012, 02:40:48 AM »
proof god exist

lovemonkey

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2012, 02:41:23 AM »
lmao.

no dude. if there are 4 rocks, there are 4 rocks. it doesnt matter whether i know they are there or not.


2+2=4, it always equals 4, it never equaled anything other than four, and it doesnt matter if every lving organism in the entire universe dies tomorrow it will still equal 4.

same applies to every other kind of logic.  

logic is not subjective ! (and neither is morality)



This only further reveals your ignorance. Even the most basic arithmetic can not be 100% proven. Ever heard of Kurt Gödel? This has so far not had any practical implications but in theory we can't even prove the most basic mathematics.
from incomplete data

BigCyp

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2012, 03:01:46 AM »
This only further reveals your ignorance. Even the most basic arithmetic can not be 100% proven. Ever heard of Kurt Gödel? This has so far not had any practical implications but in theory we can't even prove the most basic mathematics.

I bet you're the type of 'guy' who gets really angry inside.

NordicNerd

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2012, 03:02:59 AM »
This only further reveals your ignorance. Even the most basic arithmetic can not be 100% proven. Ever heard of Kurt Gödel? This has so far not had any practical implications but in theory we can't even prove the most basic mathematics.

Gödel's theorem doesn't imply that all of arithmetics cannot be proven, just that some/ many problems cannot be proven.

NN

lovemonkey

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Re: Oh God and Jesus , YOU GUYS are just too funny!
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2012, 03:16:18 AM »
I bet you're the type of 'guy' who gets really angry inside.

Fathers and sons  ::)
from incomplete data