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Author Topic: Jones refused heavyweight fight.  (Read 4174 times)
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 10:51:59 AM »

i train with jones lol and u people got no idea what this guy does to true heavyweights in sparring, i mean his 24 and walks around at 240ish, he wont be a lightheavy for long
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GraniteCityDon
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 10:56:57 AM »

We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!
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BILL ANVIL
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 11:34:06 AM »

Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything.  Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.

The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field?  Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW? 

Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes? 



Gain 'all kinds' of size? Hes already around the same size range as Fedor or Cigano with even more reach, he just cuts down to 205 is all. The only way we'll tell how good he is if he fights guys his own size, its pretty simple really. Hopefully they let him, or else everyone at 205 will be pretty well just fighting for a paycheck until he vacates the belt.
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coltrane
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 12:14:01 PM »

i train with jones lol and u people got no idea what this guy does to true heavyweights in sparring, i mean his 24 and walks around at 240ish, he wont be a lightheavy for long

Prove you train with Jones.
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BILL ANVIL
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 06:40:41 PM »

We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!

Jones is 6 inches taller than his competitors, that means he is physically better than his opponents. In terms of skill we dont know. Put him up against Junior who doesnt cut any weight and would still be at a physical disadvantage to Bones.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2012, 06:28:15 PM »

We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!

  I would give all props in the World to Jones if he were dominating other guys who are 6'3+ with an 80"+ reach.

  Compare this to Fedor, who used to toy with his opponents and dominate them just like Jones does, except he did it with a height, weight and reach disadvantage, whilst Jones does it with a weight and reach advantage. But maybe it's not fair to bring up Fedor, because Fedor in his prime was ridiculously great and we might never see anything like him ever again.

  Jones is definitely a top 3 LHW in terms of skills, but he might or might not be #1 because his reach is such a huge advantage. Would he still be a top LHW with a 77" reach? Most likely. Would he dominate and destroy guys like Shogun, Rampage and Machida with ease? No! He destroys top LHWs because he is a HW with a significant muscle and reach advantage over them.

  If Jones moved to the HW division and did to JDS what he did to Shogun, not only would I regard him as the greatest HW in the World, but also the greatest P4P fighter as well since he demolished with ease a top fighter who actually has the physical tools, such as height and power, to give him a fight unlike the LHWs who stand no chance against him. But we all know how a JDS vs Jon Jones fight would likely end, which proves my point that he is not that great since he still enjoys a reach advantage over JDS although not huge.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 06:56:15 PM »

  I would give all props in the World to Jones if he were dominating other guys who are 6'3+ with an 80"+ reach.

  Compare this to Fedor, who used to toy with his opponents and dominate them just like Jones does, except he did it with a height, weight and reach disadvantage, whilst Jones does it with a weight and reach advantage. But maybe it's not fair to bring up Fedor, because Fedor in his prime was ridiculously great and we might never see anything like him ever again.

  Jones is definitely a top 3 LHW in terms of skills, but he might or might not be #1 because his reach is such a huge advantage. Would he still be a top LHW with a 77" reach? Most likely. Would he dominate and destroy guys like Shogun, Rampage and Machida with ease? No! He destroys top LHWs because he is a HW with a significant muscle and reach advantage over them.

  If Jones moved to the HW division and did to JDS what he did to Shogun, not only would I regard him as the greatest HW in the World, but also the greatest P4P fighter as well since he demolished with ease a top fighter who actually has the physical tools, such as height and power, to give him a fight unlike the LHWs who stand no chance against him. But we all know how a JDS vs Jon Jones fight would likely end, which proves my point that he is not that great since he still enjoys a reach advantage over JDS although not huge.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Great post and nothing but the truth. I just wanna see Jones in a fair fight so we can finally see how good he is, instead of picking on the puny 205ers.
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Geo
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2012, 11:15:29 AM »

all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...

the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2012, 12:28:05 PM »

all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...

the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..

Totally agree.  Everyone has advantages and disadvantages.  Some are great at JJ and some wrestling.  Some are excellent strikers while other's aren't. 

It's like sour grapes.  Jones is cleaning out the division and people, especially anti UFC boy SMM can't stand it.

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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2012, 04:10:59 PM »

all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...

the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..

  you guys are so stupid...

  Weight and reach...they are both physical advantages.

  So why does one matter and the other doesen't?

  Yes, I know that this is the only thing that matters to the athletic comissions.

  My point, that you morons don't seem to understand no matter how many times I explain this to you, is that one is not more of an advantage than the other, so a fighter with an 84" reach beating on guys with a 76" reach makes the "win" as irrelevant as a HW beating a LHW. Who gives a shit?

  For us to see how great Jones is in terms of skills he needs to fight guys with a reach closer to his.

  A fight where you can hit your opponent and he can't hit back is unfair.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »

Totally agree.  Everyone has advantages and disadvantages.  Some are great at JJ and some wrestling.  Some are excellent strikers while other's aren't. 

It's like sour grapes.  Jones is cleaning out the division and people, especially anti UFC boy SMM can't stand it.



  CockTrain, you are the biggest UFC fan-boy in this board by far. I bet you would love to deep throat Dana White's dick as Jon Jones plowed your asshole with his. You have Jones' nuts up your nose so much I am embarassed for you.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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GraniteCityDon
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2012, 04:44:44 PM »

And what i keep coming back to is Kendall Grove - he has the biggest reach and is the tallest fighter at 185 and is a virtual nobody. Same can be said of Stefan Struve at HW & Terry Etim at LW so once you realise hes not the only freak in a weight class you HAVE to factor in his physical ability.
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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2012, 05:14:30 PM »

And what i keep coming back to is Kendall Grove - he has the biggest reach and is the tallest fighter at 185 and is a virtual nobody. Same can be said of Stefan Struve at HW & Terry Etim at LW so once you realise hes not the only freak in a weight class you HAVE to factor in his physical ability.

  Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win. If you guys didn't have such shitty reading comprehension, you would know that.

  I said that Jones is a very good fighter which, when combined with his reach advantage, makes him invincible. It is the combination of both things that makes him invincible.

  For instance, I am over 6'4 and currently weight close to 260 lbs, but an MMA middleweight would probably beat me in a fight because he can fight much, much better than me. Kendall Grove is a bad fighter, so he gets beat by guys with less reach who are a lot better than him at fighting.

  It is an issue of degree. You guys are thinking in terms of absolutes: It's "either" "or" to you guys. It doesen't work that way. Reach helps a lot, and when you are a very talented fighter like Jones, it is an advantage that makes you invincible.

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Geo
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2012, 05:37:42 PM »

 Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win  


yes you did !
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GraniteCityDon
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2012, 05:50:39 PM »

 Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win. If you guys didn't have such shitty reading comprehension, you would know that.

  I said that Jones is a very good fighter which, when combined with his reach advantage, makes him invincible. It is the combination of both things that makes him invincible.

  For instance, I am over 6'4 and currently weight close to 260 lbs, but an MMA middleweight would probably beat me in a fight because he can fight much, much better than me. Kendall Grove is a bad fighter, so he gets beat by guys with less reach who are a lot better than him at fighting.

  It is an issue of degree. You guys are thinking in terms of absolutes: It's "either" "or" to you guys. It doesen't work that way. Reach helps a lot, and when you are a very talented fighter like Jones, it is an advantage that makes you invincible.

SUCKMYMUSCLE


Just when i was beginning to think we could have civil discussions in depth  Roll Eyes

My reading comprehension is fine, your statements are contradictory and senseless at times because you are blinded by the fact you hate Jon Jones. You endlessly rant about Jones being too big for his class, that he is taller and has a longer reach, and as a result he has an unfair advantage over his opponents. Well i have listed other fighters that have the exact same qualities in their respective weight classes and ARE good fighters, but it holds no advantage for them in the cage.

You have again been proven wrong, can not accept it and spit the dummy like a spoilt girl wanting another cookie from the jar even though you know you just ate the last one. You refuse to believe Jon Jones has elite fighting skills because he hasnt fought a 250lb man thats 6ft 5, yet it is evident from his performances that he has incredible wrestling and excellent, yet somewhat unorthodox striking. There simply isnt a man alive at 205 that can compete with him right now, and as he is able to comfortably make the weight the issue is dead.

Accept your loss and move on, nobody wants to see you freak out again and relapse into your Fedor rants.
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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2012, 07:43:02 PM »


Just when i was beginning to think we could have civil discussions in depth 

My reading comprehension is fine, your statements are contradictory and senseless at times because you are blinded by the fact you hate Jon Jones. You endlessly rant about Jones being too big for his class, that he is taller and has a longer reach, and as a result he has an unfair advantage over his opponents. Well i have listed other fighters that have the exact same qualities in their respective weight classes and ARE good fighters, but it holds no advantage for them in the cage.

You have again been proven wrong, can not accept it and spit the dummy like a spoilt girl wanting another cookie from the jar even though you know you just ate the last one. You refuse to believe Jon Jones has elite fighting skills because he hasnt fought a 250lb man thats 6ft 5, yet it is evident from his performances that he has incredible wrestling and excellent, yet somewhat unorthodox striking. There simply isnt a man alive at 205 that can compete with him right now, and as he is able to comfortably make the weight the issue is dead.

Accept your loss and move on, nobody wants to see you freak out again and relapse into your Fedor rants.

  I don't hate Jon Jones. And how have I been proven wrong? Let's see.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »

all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...

the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..

So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol
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Geo
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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2012, 11:01:13 PM »

So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol

 Huh


interesting !
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coltrane
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2012, 07:44:39 AM »

 CockTrain, you are the biggest UFC fan-boy in this board by far. I bet you would love to deep throat Dana White's dick as Jon Jones plowed your asshole with his. You have Jones' nuts up your nose so much I am embarassed for you.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Listen suckmensmuscles, I'm a fan of watching brutality.  Period.  Whether UFC, old pride, strikeforce, etc.  The plain reality is that UFC is tops right now.  There isn't much else on.  I really don't know how this qualifies me as a "fan boy".  

The simple truth is you HATE anything UFC.  You always back old pride fighters and root against UFC born fighters.  It's really very obvious.  This is why you can't stand Jones beating up on your pride boys.  Everytime an old pride vet loses to a UFC fighter, you cry like a little bitch, or make up ridiculous excuses as to why they lost, i.e. Jones and his reach.  


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coltrane
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2012, 07:46:27 AM »

  I don't hate Jon Jones. And how have I been proven wrong? Let's see.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Biggest lie since the Turks denying the holocaust of the Armenians.
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GraniteCityDon
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2012, 07:54:24 AM »

So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol

I personally dont have problems with a fighter making a certain weight although i'd like to see it on the day of the fight. Rumble Johnson was a clear 205'er fighting at 170, he may have settled better at 185 but overall the guy is just too big to diet down to these ridiculous weights and it eventually cost him losses and his UFC career. It may be the same with Jones if he tries to go any lower.

I dont think theres any chance of Jones making 185 but if he could, then wheres the problem? Everyone focuses too much on the size aspect and not the fighting aspect, im something of an optimist and like to believe the bigger man doesnt always win  Grin
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coltrane
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2012, 08:00:01 AM »

I personally dont have problems with a fighter making a certain weight although i'd like to see it on the day of the fight. Rumble Johnson was a clear 205'er fighting at 170, he may have settled better at 185 but overall the guy is just too big to diet down to these ridiculous weights and it eventually cost him losses and his UFC career. It may be the same with Jones if he tries to go any lower.

I dont think theres any chance of Jones making 185 but if he could, then wheres the problem? Everyone focuses too much on the size aspect and not the fighting aspect, im something of an optimist and like to believe the bigger man doesnt always win  Grin

x2

Remember Royce Gracie etc.?  Bigger doesn't always mean better.  The smaller guy needs a gameplan to plan for the longer reach etc. 
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2012, 08:51:05 AM »

Listen suckmensmuscles, I'm a fan of watching brutality.  Period.  Whether UFC, old pride, strikeforce, etc.  The plain reality is that UFC is tops right now.  There isn't much else on.  I really don't know how this qualifies me as a "fan boy".  

The simple truth is you HATE anything UFC.  You always back old pride fighters and root against UFC born fighters.  It's really very obvious.  This is why you can't stand Jones beating up on your pride boys.  Everytime an old pride vet loses to a UFC fighter, you cry like a little bitch, or make up ridiculous excuses as to why they lost, i.e. Jones and his reach.  




  CockTrain, you stupid queer, if I hated the UFC I wouldn't have watched each and every one of it's editions since the first one in 1993 when Royce shocked the World and won it all. Trust me: I have been watching the UFC for much longer than you, and I can discuss in detail fights that happened in the UFC 15 year ago or more when you were still a baby whining just like you do now. The reason why I say PRIDE was better is because it was. I hate ad hominem arguments, but in this case which is "better" is subjective, so ad hominem applies, and the bottom line is that most people who watched both regard PRIDE the better promotion.

  And I think Jon Jones is phenomenal. His speed, coordination and wrestling skills are great. The speed and precision with which he moves his limbs while striking is extremely impressive. He is a very gifted athlete. And I have already said that even if he were 5'11 or so with a 76" reach that he would still be a top 3 LHW because of his athleticism and wrestling.

  My point, which you f.aggots don't seem to get, is that his advantage in reach and muscle is such that they represent a great advantage against LHWs. It is the fact that he is a top fighter in terms of talent who also is very significantly superior physically to his opponents that allows him to cimpletely demolish top LHWs without even breaking a sweat. I just watched the Jones vs Shogun fight again and it was like a grown man beating up a child. And I mean this literally. Not only did Jones destroy Shogun without any effort, but Jones was so superior to Shogun in height and muscularity that Shogun looked like a child next to him.

  No one owns Shogun like that. Even the most talented fighter ever would not be able to destroy Shogun without any effort considering that Shogun is one of the top 3 LHWs ever and had 10 X more experience than Jones when they fought. Even if Jones is the most talented fighter ever, he should at least have struggled to beat him given that Shogun is one of the greatest ever and had 12 years of professional MMA experience compared to Jones who was neophyte. I don't care how gifted you are, a noob fighter is not going to toy with Shogun like that on only talent. Rampage and Machida are also top LHWs with years(plural) of fighting experience and they had nothing for Jones.

  Jones has huge physical advantages over the other LHWs. His reach is so ridiculous that even in the HW ranks there is nobody with limbs as long as him! Not even Stefan Struve or Overeem, both over 6'5!!! How is your average LHW at around 6' or so going to compete with that? What about strength? Have you seen how muscular Jones is? He could step onstage at a bodybuilding contest and do well. Not only is he significantly heavier than only 205 lbs on fight day, but far more of his weight is muscle compared to the other LHWs. Compare his musculature's to that of Shogun or Machida. No contest.

  Jones has pretty big physical advantages in reach and strength compared to the other LHWs. Cry all you want, but facts are facts. If he moves up to HW and does to JDS what he did to Shogun, then I will proclaim Jones as not only the greatest HW but the greatest pound-for-pound fighter. But we all know he can't hang with top heavyweights even though he would still have a reach advantage over them, which proves my point that he is not as great as you make him to be.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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coltrane
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2012, 09:02:44 AM »

Yeah and I watched Royce in UFC 1 LIVE too asshole.  I love how you can say I was a baby when this aired and you don't even know my age.  I'm probably older than you moron.


You just keep crying on and on about reach and height.  No one, besides your minion Bill agree.  Everyone has their advantages dickwad.  Some have better this or better that.  


Of course Jones has a physical reach advantage.  Is he a better striker than Rua?  NO.  That's clear.  But what Rua, the better striker FAILED to do against a long reached opponent was to get in on him and strike.  Rua failed to do this.  There are ways to beat reach.  You being a studyier of the game should know this. 

Just stfu already.  
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GraniteCityDon
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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2012, 09:09:53 AM »

x2

Remember Royce Gracie etc.?  Bigger doesn't always mean better.  The smaller guy needs a gameplan to plan for the longer reach etc. 

Royce wasnt considered amongst the best in his family let alone BJJ when he was raping people twice his size. From that point we have obviously seen the sport evolve, and the fighters of today would likely demolish alot of the old champions, but history has shown the smaller men can win against the odds.

Harry Greb is a tremendous example of this.

Ultimately if a fighter has enough skill he will find a way to win - modern champ Frankie Edgar & legends like Fedor & Sakuraba have showcased this enough times to make one hell of a highlight reel.

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