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Author Topic: Easiest on the joints  (Read 1441 times)
davie
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« on: February 12, 2012, 11:42:14 PM »

Hey guys, without getting into 'this is better than that' blah blah conversation I wanted your opinion on whether workouts from the HIT family or workouts from the higher volume family were better for someone with bad joints (have previously injured shoulder, back,knee).

I know it could depend on whether the HIT program was pre exhaust, rest pause etc etc, and whether the high volume was giant sets, high frequency lower weight etc....but in general?

For example I'm just finishing off a strength cycle and had wondered about either a mentzer inspired routine (HIT), a higher volume lower wright routine like pavels bear routine....or something out of left field that was laid out for me from start to finish like joe defrancoes 'built like a badass' (no laughing).

Thanks, im interested on opinion. Remember its not which one is best for muscle growth, but which one is essiest on the joints, both inbthe short and long term (either way obviously being effective).

Davie
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Voland
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 02:40:10 AM »

better for the joints is volume. Never do less than 10 reps. Rest 60sec tops. You will have to use less weight but i'll stimulate just as a heavier weight.
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 03:10:55 AM »

Hey guys, without getting into 'this is better than that' blah blah conversation I wanted your opinion on whether workouts from the HIT family or workouts from the higher volume family were better for someone with bad joints (have previously injured shoulder, back,knee).

I know it could depend on whether the HIT program was pre exhaust, rest pause etc etc, and whether the high volume was giant sets, high frequency lower weight etc....but in general?

For example I'm just finishing off a strength cycle and had wondered about either a mentzer inspired routine (HIT), a higher volume lower wright routine like pavels bear routine....or something out of left field that was laid out for me from start to finish like joe defrancoes 'built like a badass' (no laughing).

Thanks, im interested on opinion. Remember its not which one is best for muscle growth, but which one is essiest on the joints, both inbthe short and long term (either way obviously being effective).

Davie


Davie,
In my opinion, technique is as big a factor as volume. Slowing down movements, performing them stricter, squeezing the peak contraction, etc. are all ways to make lighter weight "feel heavier" on the muscle, while sparing some of the trauma to joints and connective tissue. Also, as already mentioned, shorter rests can make each set feel progressively heavier than the last (to a greater degree).
My elbows used to scream in agony when doing overhead extensions. Everyone back then told me I'd already wrecked my elbows. After taking about 16 months to heal, I began doing the extensions again, but smarter. I now use more weight than I did then, for more reps, and with a fuller/deeper stretch at the bottom, and my elbows have ZERO problems.
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 06:06:53 AM »

Thanks for the feedback guys. montague I hear you on using proper form etc. Im getting more aware of that now.

Whats the feedback like on Max-ot for a mass routine (not crazy big, another 10lbs would suffice)

Davie
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 08:46:35 AM »

Personally I think that a volume approach is better for the joints and injury prevention. Basically because with a volume approach you are by default forced to use less weight than if you were doing an all out effort single set. As mentioned by others HOW you do the movements is the most important factor.

As someone who has had experience with max-ot, I can tell you it is one of the worst programs for joints.  It does pretty well in terms of stength and size gains but only for a short period of time and only if it's your first time using it,  and by short I mean 10-12 weeks. After that point you can switch exercises, take weeks off, it won't matter.
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jpm101
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 09:53:48 AM »

Might suggest something like GVT, when coming of a heavier weight training cycle. Allowing a bit of rest for anyone's potential  joint/tendon/ligament problems. Or the other style Square Root systems like 8X8's. 6X6 & 5X5's may prove too taxing on the joints.

Point being, with GVT (10X10's) you are using the same (never changing) relative lighter weight throughout the total 10 sets.  The workload is directed to the muscles themselves, rather than overdo stress on the joints. For people who have never given GVT a good shot and think it's just some light pump-up stuff, they are in for a surprise. You will gain strength and muscle, if applied the way it is intended to be worked. It can be very demanding on the body, but the muscles not the joints. It can also be a form of a mind game to finish the 10 the way it was intended.

After 6-8 weeks on heavy Power Rack  or a partial rep cycle, I will take a week off (sometimes two) and switch to GVT. At other times, doing 8X8's instead.  This type of training is meant for compound movements, like benches, dips, chins, squats, DL's, etc. Designed for only one (the extreme -two, same body part) compound exercise on a workout session and 3 workouts a week. Like Mon-chest, Wed-legs, Fri-back.

Some of my best gains were doing the Pullover & Press using  GVT. Also squats, Dl's & cleans. Second choice was the 8X8 methods. Good Luck.

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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 10:13:19 AM »

Might suggest something like GVT, when coming of a heavier weight training cycle. Allowing a bit of rest for anyone's potential  joint/tendon/ligament problems. Or the other style Square Root systems like 8X8's. 6X6 & 5X5's may prove too taxing on the joints.

Point being, with GVT (10X10's) you are using the same (never changing) relative lighter weight throughout the total 10 sets.  The workload is directed to the muscles themselves, rather than overdo stress on the joints. For people who have never given GVT a good shot and think it's just some light pump-up stuff, they are in for a surprise. You will gain strength and muscle, if applied the way it is intended to be worked. It can be very demanding on the body, but the muscles not the joints. It can also be a form of a mind game to finish the 10 the way it was intended.

After 6-8 weeks on heavy Power Rack  or a partial rep cycle, I will take a week off (sometimes two) and switch to GVT. At other times, doing 8X8's instead.  This type of training is meant for compound movements, like benches, dips, chins, squats, DL's, etc. Designed for only one (the extreme -two, same body part) compound exercise on a workout session and 3 workouts a week. Like Mon-chest, Wed-legs, Fri-back.

Some of my best gains were doing the Pullover & Press using  GVT. Also squats, Dl's & cleans. Second choice was the 8X8 methods. Good Luck.


Give an example of a very basic 10x10 3 day a week workout please. I have heard of this system but never tried it. Makes sense not to hammer your joints
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 03:45:18 PM »

Might suggest something like GVT, when coming of a heavier weight training cycle. Allowing a bit of rest for anyone's potential  joint/tendon/ligament problems.

Point being, with GVT (10X10's) you are using the same (never changing) relative lighter weight throughout the total 10 sets.  The workload is directed to the muscles themselves, rather than overdo stress on the joints.


I used GVT while allowing my elbows to heal for the very reasons mentioned above. In fact, I saw many other minor, nagging injuries diminish as well.
GVT also taught me that, hypertrophy-wise, my upper body responds a little better to higher reps.
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 08:29:17 PM »

Donny: The original concept was to do one compound exercise each workout and that was it. Might be something like; Mon-bench, Wed-squat, Fri-BB Row, based on once a week training a single body part.  Whatever one exercise is selected per workout day/body apart, is up to you. Just make sure it's a true compound exercise, no flys, lateral raises. leg extensions, etc.

Pretty simple stuff, but can be a drain on body and mind after a serious workout. If doing the bench, on a GVT day, than select a weights that is much less than a normal weight for the bench. Say your normal bench is 230X8-9 fairly easy to handle reps. Drop the bar to around 150lbs and keep that weight throughout the entire 10 sets. If you can't make the 10 reps on the middle to last few sets, than you lose...your starting weight is too much. Next time chose a lower starting weight. Don't worry, you will be getting much stronger as you work into the this system. Usually 90 to 120 seconds rest between sets. Don't try to select a starting weight by that % of weight used stuff, that's just so much crap. Everyone is different in selecting any weight for anything. Just have to experiment a bit with the bar.

It's really about doing a 100 reps per exercise, divided by 10 sets (or breaks, because that's what sets are). Actually BB'ing is about how many reps, rather than sets, in any style workout, if you think about it. Squats & DL's can be very productive with a GVT system. Size, power and endurance all rolled into one.

The theory of the start of GVT was with central and eastern European weight lifters. For their off season training and a relief from their normal heavy load training. Some lifters had increased their bwt, moving to a higher weight class from this style of training. The usually method for them was something like; Mon-press, Wed-front squats (exceptional exercise), Fri-cleans or snatches. Some did regular BB'ing style exercises, like benches, rows, etc..

There are other versions of GVT. But the original may be the better method for most people to explore. This is a true K.I.S.S. way to train. Good Luck.
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2012, 02:49:14 AM »

Thank you .. maybe you could "integrate" this into a programme... say just squats on leg day. might try it.
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2012, 09:39:28 AM »

I'm planning to do the BB Hack squats today, using the GVT method. Have used the Front Squat and regular squat in the past. Step-up's (weighted) also work well. Even Romanian DL's, which are a real treat for the ham's & lower back. If anyone interested in this one, please go slow and allow at least a week breaking in time. Good Luck.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 05:00:12 PM »

I'm planning to do the BB Hack squats today, using the GVT method. Have used the Front Squat and regular squat in the past. Step-up's (weighted) also work well. Even Romanian DL's, which are a real treat for the ham's & lower back. If anyone interested in this one, please go slow and allow at least a week breaking in time. Good Luck.


JPM:
Are you familiar with the details of Bulgarian German Volume Training?
One former NPC competitor once told me that the Bulgarian version is superior for growth. He was supposed to lend me a binder with outlines and other literature, but...you know how that goes.
I'm just curious what the specifics are.
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jpm101
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 08:08:53 PM »

Montague:  No, not familiar with the Bulgarian version. But than again, so many training methods, and exercises, can go by different names. I know that the old Eastern block (including Bulgaria) had very unusual methods compared to the west. Five-six days a week and sometimes twice or three times a day. But very short and to the point workouts.

Of course they were supported by the socialist states and never worked at a job......free housing, eats, etc. And, Ah yes..juiced big time.  Quite a few story's about a lifter coming off the street, still dressed in street clothes, no warmup and taking 500+ off the rack and doing 4 or 5 full rep squats.  Or holding 1000+ above the head (power rack) to gain lockout strength.

The original GVT training has versions where two opposing exercises (push-pull) are done in the same workout. Or two exercises are done for the same body part. Some times in a SS style for another version.. Another is where they drop the weigh on the bar, during the 10 sets (like a drop set). Some where you add flys, lateral raises, arms, etc.

Just my view (take it for what's it's worth); the best concept would be the original version of a straight 10 reps of 10 sets, with the same weight for most people. Feel free to experiment though, only way to find the true answer for you ,where muscle mass and strength is concerned. Good Luck.
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 03:07:49 AM »

Montague:  No, not familiar with the Bulgarian version. But than again, so many training methods, and exercises, can go by different names. I know that the old Eastern block (including Bulgaria) had very unusual methods compared to the west. Five-six days a week and sometimes twice or three times a day. But very short and to the point workouts.

Of course they were supported by the socialist states and never worked at a job......free housing, eats, etc. And, Ah yes..juiced big time.  Quite a few story's about a lifter coming off the street, still dressed in street clothes, no warmup and taking 500+ off the rack and doing 4 or 5 full rep squats.  Or holding 1000+ above the head (power rack) to gain lockout strength.

The original GVT training has versions where two opposing exercises (push-pull) are done in the same workout. Or two exercises are done for the same body part. Some times in a SS style for another version.. Another is where they drop the weigh on the bar, during the 10 sets (like a drop set). Some where you add flys, lateral raises, arms, etc.

Just my view (take it for what's it's worth); the best concept would be the original version of a straight 10 reps of 10 sets, with the same weight for most people. Feel free to experiment though, only way to find the true answer for you ,where muscle mass and strength is concerned. Good Luck.


Gotcha.
Thanks!!
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 02:48:56 AM »

   I, too, have multiple injuries to my shoulder, knee, etc. What I have found, other than training "around" these problems, is to use a rotating method of super slow traing and volumn, rotated with heavier, but not balistic, movements. It is the powerlifting style of ballistic movements that causes the most trauma to the joints. When you use a compound movement and force the poundage, you will slowly have your form breakdown and misalign your joints.
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 12:24:09 PM »

I believe you need both types of training. Low sets, heavy weight and relatively low reps during some cycles. On other cycles it's good to push the endurance envelope of high sets, moderate weight and high reps.

I lose strength using high sets and reps but I gain muscular endurance. Just doing power bodybuilding I gain fat along with strength. 

This is an example of what I'm posting about.

Barbell bench 2 x 6 reps                  Barbell bench 4 x 12
barbell incline bench 2x6                 barbell incline bench  4 x 12
flies  2 x 10                                  Flies 4 x 15                               
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