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Author Topic: Seated behind the neck presses feel great, why are they "bad for the shoulder"?  (Read 22214 times)
chaos
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2015, 10:37:53 AM »

never seen anyone lean back 30-45 degrees to call it an incline press. If you look at a Military press and itīs form and your head position then sorry but i do not agree.
So you're saying chest doesn't come into play until a person leans back to 30-45 deg?
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2015, 11:40:48 AM »

So you're saying chest doesn't come into play until a person leans back to 30-45 deg?
are you saying the lats do not get trained in the Front/behind the neck press? To what degree is the question . This then determins not only if it is a compound lift but to what degree it hits the target muscles. This is also why myself and some others talk about more exercises to train the muscles from angles.
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2015, 05:37:26 PM »

Please no belittling of members in this thread. Keep that rubbish to the gossip and opinions board.

Thanks
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2015, 06:33:47 PM »

are you saying the lats do not get trained in the Front/behind the neck press? To what degree is the question . This then determins not only if it is a compound lift but to what degree it hits the target muscles. This is also why myself and some others talk about more exercises to train the muscles from angles.
So you're not going to answer the question?
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« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2015, 02:05:47 AM »

Please no belittling of members in this thread. Keep that rubbish to the gossip and opinions board.

Thanks

X2
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« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2015, 03:35:52 AM »

Glad to help donny and correct his misunderstanding of shoulder training. Or any other body part training for that matter. Almost feel it's my duty to help the little chubby guy the best I can. And if he wants to borrow somethings I taught him as his own..than God Bless him.

Not having the personal hands on experience of never, ever, being in a actual real gym, donny owns much to YouTube and GB as learning aids. I can only wish him the best in his hopefully understanding of a basic workout...after all these years and thousands of his daily post on GB.

And a Good Luck to all of his efforts.
Stick to the discussion at hand and not insults. the standing shoulder press is not an incline press and will not train your chest to the Degree an Incline Bench will at 30-45 Degrees.
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« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2015, 08:22:32 AM »

Best thing I did for my shoulders was to start seated BTNPs.
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2015, 10:05:46 AM »

Overhead pressing is a compound movement (2 or more major joints involved) and calls upon most of the upper body, including abs and the lower back/hips. . Raising the bar from just above shoulder level to overhead  also involves the traps strongly. This can also be said for the press behind the neck, with even the pecs taking part.

You would be seeing more 250-300+ behind the neck and front presses in regular workouts if guys would spend less time on the bench press  and more on pressing. Would also see much more muscle mass on the complete shoulder girdle. BB benches are not the ideal exercise for the chest, for most guy's. Though PL'ers will use the PBN to help improve their benching...seems to work well for most.

Adding different versions of overhead pressing, like push presses (bar resting on the heal of the palms give much better leverage & strength) and jerk presses. Both give exceptional power and thickness.  Can also push press and jerk press behind the neck. Both these forms of pressing may not be suited for everyone...but works for me and other lifters I have trained with.  Usually press off a PR, standing or sitting.

Sitting is great for OHP. If wanting a support position, than press on a true 90 degree (straight up & down) bench. These benches passed off at shoulder press benches are really a higher degree incline bench. The OHP and inclines do not follow the same mechanics in pressing. Can use much more weight weight with inclines, take your pick what may work best for your goals.

Good Luck.

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« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2015, 10:10:08 AM »

Overhead pressing is a compound movement (2 or more major joints involved) and calls upon most of the upper body, including abs and the lower back/hips. . Raising the bar from just above shoulder level to overhead  also involves the traps strongly. This can also be said for the press behind the neck, with even the pecs taking part.

You would be seeing more 250-300+ behind the neck and front presses in regular workouts if guys would spend less time on the bench press  and more on pressing. Would also see much more muscle mass on the complete shoulder girdle. BB benches are not the ideal exercise for the chest, for most guy's. Though PL'ers will use the PBN to help improve their benching...seems to work well for most.

Adding different versions of overhead pressing, like push presses (bar resting on the heal of the palms give much better leverage & strength) and jerk presses. Both give exceptional power and thickness.  Can also push press and jerk press behind the neck. Both these forms of pressing may not be suited for everyone...but works for me and other lifters I have trained with.  Usually press off a PR, standing or sitting.

Sitting is great for OHP. If wanting a support position, than press on a true 90 degree (straight up & down) bench. These benches passed off at shoulder press benches are really a higher degree incline bench. The OHP and inclines do not follow the same mechanics in pressing. Can use much more weight weight with inclines, take your pick what may work best for your goals.

Good Luck.


so you agree the overhead press and incline press are two diffrent exercises with diffrent emphasis ?
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« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2015, 11:15:30 AM »

Similar, but with a different variation. The overhead, bench and incline press are a out and away from the body pushing movement.  The dip is a pushing motion but down and along side the body.

OHP and inclines share a variation of the same pushing theme, chest, delts & triceps. Actually any exercise can be termed a variation of a theme, considering the flexing of the joints involved.

If anyone wants a complete pressing workout, than the OHP, flat bench and dips might be a suggested example.

If anyone wants a complete pulling workout, than the Chins, BB row and the up right row might be suggested example.

Hand spacing, as narrow, middle or wide grip may also be applied as a variation of the same exercise. The BB curl, bench, row, etc for examples. Even a false grip or hammer grip.

Good Luck.

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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2015, 11:36:59 AM »

Similar, but with a different variation. The overhead, bench and incline press are a out and away from the body pushing movement.  The dip is a pushing motion but down and along side the body.

OHP and inclines share a variation of the same pushing theme, chest, delts & triceps. Actually any exercise can be termed a variation of a theme, considering the flexing of the joints involved.

If anyone wants a complete pressing workout, than the OHP, flat bench and dips might be a suggested example.

If anyone wants a complete pulling workout, than the Chins, BB row and the up right row might be suggested example.

Hand spacing, as narrow, middle or wide grip may also be applied as a variation of the same exercise. The BB curl, bench, row, etc for examples. Even a false grip or hammer grip.

Good Luck.


"are a out of the way pushing movement" Roll Eyes so you admit benches in all variations  are infact a total other movement?
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« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2015, 01:01:20 PM »

Stick to the discussion at hand and not insults. the standing shoulder press is not an incline press and will not train your chest to the Degree an Incline Bench will at 30-45 Degrees.
I'm the one that said people turn ohp into incline press and your response was that they couldn't do that cause the chest doesn't come into action unless the body is at 30-45 deg. Just to keep your attacks square. Wink

I could suggest an experiment but from your posts I can see if it's not posted as a youtube video you wouldn't believe it. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming ohp and inclines are the same exercises.
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« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2015, 01:07:49 PM »

I'm the one that said people turn ohp into incline press and your response was that they couldn't do that cause the chest doesn't come into action unless the body is at 30-45 deg. Just to keep your attacks square. Wink

I could suggest an experiment but from your posts I can see if it's not posted as a youtube video you wouldn't believe it. I don't think you'll find anyone claiming ohp and inclines are the same exercises.
That was my point they are separate exercises. You should know what i am talking about as a mod on a training section.
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« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2015, 01:11:31 PM »

That was my point they are separate exercises. You should know what i am talking about as a mod on a training section.
I'm not the one that confused everyone here, nobody claimed they were the same Huh
My statement stands the same, vast majority of people that ohp, especially seated, lean back way too far and bring their upper chest into the movement.
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« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2015, 01:13:24 PM »

I'm not the one that confused everyone here, nobody claimed they were the same Huh
My statement stands the same, vast majority of people that ohp, especially seated, lean back way too far and bring their upper chest into the movement.
so what Degree do you think itīs an incline press?
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« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2015, 01:18:35 PM »

so what Degree do you think itīs an incline press?
Never really measured what angle the pecs become heavily involved in the movement. Do you disagree that by leaning back the upper pecs become involved?
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« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2015, 01:33:32 PM »

Never really measured what angle the pecs become heavily involved in the movement. Do you disagree that by leaning back the upper pecs become involved?
I tell you what Chaos. Today or Tomorrow .. set a Bench at 30 then do a pyramid up to 45 then wait a couple of days see if you feel chest or shoulders. 
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« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2015, 01:37:58 PM »

Standing or seated Press will not involve the upper pecs like an incline press..the argument of leaning back is  really trivial.
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« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2015, 05:49:57 PM »

I tell you what Chaos. Today or Tomorrow .. set a Bench at 30 then do a pyramid up to 45 then wait a couple of days see if you feel chest or shoulders. 
???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?

Standing or seated Press will not involve the upper pecs like an incline press..the argument of leaning back is  really trivial.
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2015, 07:43:44 PM »

???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. Smiley


Boom.


Jpm is bang on as usual.

I don't press behind the neck anymore though. Dumbbells give me what I need but I press them standing. No bullshit that way but lots of room for controlled cheating.
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« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2015, 07:49:44 PM »

Muscle soreness is not always a best one way to understand which muscle group is truly getting the bulk of the work. At times, it can be misleading.

Some of these statements here (from we all know who) are  confusing, or fuzzy logic at best. The original subject matter get's way off the main point of the discussion. Trying to prove one's point (well taken or badly taken) just becomes endless chatter. Senseless really.

Benches are not a "total other movement", considering the variables and muscles influenced. , but could be termed a part of the whole for any muscle group. All with consideration of working the chest, shoulder girdle and triceps (pushing).  But benches  and squats  are "total other movements" for example.

Good Luck.
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« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2015, 09:10:35 PM »


Boom.


Jpm is bang on as usual.

I don't press behind the neck anymore though. Dumbbells give me what I need but I press them standing. No bullshit that way but lots of room for controlled cheating.
As much as I like standing db presses, I've never put consistent effort into progressing with them. I do like the seated barbell set up at my gym, back is tall up to my head.
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« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2015, 04:00:47 AM »

???I thought we were talking about OverHead Presses?
With this statement right here I can tell that you've never lifted for any kind of strength. There is no point discussing something with a person like you. Smiley
...and i can tell you have never seriously trained in Bodybuilding. Pitiful to watch you trying to help out you know who on here when he gets stuck.
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« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2015, 04:21:40 AM »

As much as I like standing db presses, I've never put consistent effort into progressing with them. I do like the seated barbell set up at my gym, back is tall up to my head.

I find them fun but I don't see poundage increases anymore. Some weeks I get a few more reps than others... The nice thing with the standing version is that you can bring in your quads and hips for the press and then get a strict negative. The other value add is that it is a full body movement (standing with weight overhead) so the core and cardio are engaged.

From a risk perspective I feel safer. Can't go as heavy standing as seated even with cheating. Likely due to the strict angle involved and the balance required.
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« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2015, 07:02:19 AM »

I find them fun but I don't see poundage increases anymore. Some weeks I get a few more reps than others... The nice thing with the standing version is that you can bring in your quads and hips for the press and then get a strict negative. The other value add is that it is a full body movement (standing with weight overhead) so the core and cardio are engaged.

From a risk perspective I feel safer. Can't go as heavy standing as seated even with cheating. Likely due to the strict angle involved and the balance required.
Yeah. I like to throw in one arm db push presses here and there for a good mix up.
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