Author Topic: When “stand your ground” fails  (Read 6717 times)

Straw Man

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When “stand your ground” fails
« on: April 13, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »
Anyone familiar with this case

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/

Trayvon Martin's tragic murder has brought much-needed scrutiny to "Stand Your Ground" laws. If you read or hear about a local "Stand Your Ground" case that isn't getting much national press, blog about it on Open Salon.
As the shooting death of Trayvon Martin and the failure of authorities to arrest his killer, George Zimmerman, continues to grab headlines, many conservatives and gun rights advocates insist that race has nothing to do with it. Some have also rallied to the defense of Florida’s “stand your ground” law, the self-defense legislation under which Zimmerman was able to avoid arrest. Yet not all stand your ground claims are so successful. Not too far from Sanford, Fla., a black man named John McNeil is serving a life sentence for shooting Brian Epp, a white man who trespassed and attacked him at his home in Georgia, another stand your ground state.
It all began in early 2005, when McNeil and his wife, Anita, hired Brian Epp’s construction company to build a new house in Cobb County, Ga. The McNeils testified that Epp was difficult to work with, which led to heated confrontations. They eventually decided to close on the house early to rid their lives of Epp, whom they found increasingly threatening. At the closing, both parties agreed that Epp would have 10 days to complete the work, after which he would stay away from the property, but he failed to keep up his end of the bargain.

On Dec. 6, 2005, John McNeil’s 15-year-old son, La’Ron, notified his dad over the phone that a man he didn’t recognize was lurking in the backyard. When La’Ron told the man to leave, an argument broke out. McNeil was still on the phone and immediately recognized Epp’s voice. According to La’Ron’s testimony, Epp pointed a folding utility knife at La’Ron’s face and said, “[w]hy don’t you make me leave?” at which point McNeil told his son to go inside and wait while he called 911 and headed home.

According to McNeil’s testimony, when he pulled up to his house, Epp was next door grabbing something from his truck and stuffing it in his pocket. McNeil quickly grabbed his gun from the glove compartment in plain view of Epp who was coming at him “fast.” McNeil jumped out of the car and fired a warning shot at the ground insisting that Epp back off. Instead of retreating, Epp charged at McNeil while reaching for his pocket, so McNeil fired again, this time fatally striking Epp in the head. (Epp was found to have a folding knife in his pocket, although it was shut.)

The McNeils weren’t the only ones who felt threatened by Epp. David Samson and Libby Jones, a white couple who hired Epp to build their home in 2004, testified that they carried a gun as a “precaution” around Epp because of his threatening behavior. According to Jones, Epp nearly hit her when she expressed dissatisfaction with his work at a weekly meeting. The couple even had a lawyer write a letter warning Epp to stay away from their property. Samson testified that after they fired him, Epp would park his car across the street and watch their house, saying “it got to the point where my wife and I were in total fear of this man.”

After a neighbor across the street who witnessed the encounter corroborated McNeil’s account, police determined that it was a case of self-defense and did not charge him in the death. Nevertheless, almost a year later Cobb County District Attorney Patrick Head decided to prosecute McNeil for murder. In 2006, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

McNeil’s attorney Mark Yurachek told Salon that “DAs throughout the country enjoy that kind of flexibility of deciding who to prosecute, but it’s curious that he took a year to do it.” While he said there’s no way to know what swayed the DA to prosecute, Yurachek revealed that letters, which he obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, were written to the DA’s office demanding that McNeil be charged. “They were mostly emails from people cajoling prosecutors to investigate,” says Yurachek. “One was from Epp’s widow. Others were written anonymously.”

In 2008, McNeil appealed his case to the Georgia Supreme Court with all but one of the seven justices upholding his conviction. The sole dissent came from Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears who argued, “the State failed to disprove John McNeil’s claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.” She went on to write:

Even viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict, the evidence was overwhelming in showing that a reasonable person in McNeil’s shoes would have believed that he was subject to an imminent physical attack by an aggressor possessing a knife and that it was necessary to use deadly force to protect himself from serious bodily injury or a forcible felony. Under the facts of this case, it would be unreasonable to require McNeil to wait until Epp succeeded in attacking him, thereby potentially disarming him, getting control of the gun, or stabbing him before he could legally employ deadly force to defend himself.  This is not what Georgia law requires.

As a leading gun rights state, Georgia has both a stand your ground law that permits citizens to use deadly force “only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury,” as well as a Castle Doctrine law, which justifies the use of deadly force in defense of one’s home.

Thus far, gun rights advocates such as the NRA and former Cobb County congressional Rep. Newt Gingrich have been silent on McNeil’s conviction, though it’s unclear whether they are aware of the case. The NRA did not immediately return a call seeking comment. Still, Rev. William Barber, president of the North Carolina NAACP State Conference, argues, “The NRA would be screaming about the injustice of his conviction if John had been white and shot a black assailant that came at him on his property armed with a knife.” (McNeil grew up in North Carolina, where the local NAACP chapter, led by Barber, was the first to pick up on his case in Georgia.)

Barber was clear that the NAACP remains firmly against stand your ground laws because “they give cover to those who may engage in racial profiling and racialized violence,” adding that “There is a history and legacy of discriminatory application of the law” that continues to this day. “African-Americans are caught in curious position. On one hand, we fight against stand your ground laws, but once the laws are on the books they aren’t applied to us.”

Civil rights activist Markel Hutchins agrees and has filed a federal lawsuit challenging Georgia’s stand your ground law because the law is not applied equally to African-Americans. He accuses the courts of accepting “the race of a victim as evidence to establish the reasonableness of an individual’s fear in cases of justifiable homicide.”

Meanwhile, Barber argues that McNeil’s treatment stands in stark contrast to that of George Zimmerman, who has been afforded the benefit of the doubt despite his victim being unarmed. “America’s always had a difficult issue dealing with race, so rather than face it when it’s exposed, the tendency by some is to try and dismiss it. But the reality is you do not see this kind of miscarriage of justice when it comes to whites.” He adds,  “John’s whole life has been taken away from him. His wife is very ill with cancer and she has lost a husband, his sons have lost a father and society has lost a man that was contributing to his community.”


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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 11:39:42 AM »
morally, you kinda do have that obligation to avoid a gun battle. 

Do I like the law?  it sure helps my ass shoudl I ever fear for my life and cap someone. 

But you gotta watch for the OTHER guy now. 

33, if you and another dude in FL had words in a club about his obama t-shirt, you could raise your hand to flip him the bird and "oh, that big bald muscle guy raised his hand to strike me - I have a weak heart and knew it would have possibly ended my life.  So I shot him 5 times in the torso until I felt the threat was gone"..

And his ass would WALK. 

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 01:22:44 PM »
morally, you kinda do have that obligation to avoid a gun battle. 

Do I like the law?  it sure helps my ass shoudl I ever fear for my life and cap someone. 

But you gotta watch for the OTHER guy now. 

33, if you and another dude in FL had words in a club about his obama t-shirt, you could raise your hand to flip him the bird and "oh, that big bald muscle guy raised his hand to strike me - I have a weak heart and knew it would have possibly ended my life.  So I shot him 5 times in the torso until I felt the threat was gone"..

And his ass would WALK. 

what did you think about the story of the guy in Georgia

dude shot a man who was on his property and threatening him with a weapon and continued to advance after getting a warning shot

There was a witness who saw the entire thing and the guy that got shot had a history of stalking people

and this shooter is in jail for life

Hopefully Fox News and the rest of the MSM will pick up on this story and run with it

240 is Back

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 01:26:05 PM »
what did you think about the story of the guy in Georgia

dude shot a man who was on his property and threatening him with a weapon and continued to advance after getting a warning shot

There was a witness who saw the entire thing and the guy that got shot had a history of stalking people

and this shooter is in jail for life

Hopefully Fox News and the rest of the MSM will pick up on this story and run with it

I live in FL, where you can put a bullet in the head of a man sleeping on your couch if you claim you fear for your life. 

that story sucks. 

I am split on the stand-your-ground law.  I love it cause I carry a gun and like to remain legal and it may keep me out of jail if I ever fear for my life and shoot someone.

But..................... ...

it's also a very easy defense for ANYONE to shoot ANYONE for ANY REASON and just deliver a smug "hey, I feared for my life and I have no duty to retreat".

Usually stepping back can diffuse most situations.  It's essentially a law saying "stay in each others faces, guys, it's legal for whoever has the fastest trigger".

So I love the law but hate asssholes like ZImm who abuse it.  When you're chasing a guy in the dark calling him a fcking a-hole, then he's got a bullet in his heart 30 seconds later, you're a c0cksucker, plain and simple.

Soul Crusher

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 01:28:14 PM »
More obama voters out of the picture for Nov - whats not to like? 

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 01:52:36 PM »
More obama voters out of the picture for Nov - whats not to like? 

so you're in favor of putting innocent men in jail for life

spoken like the communist you truly are

Soul Crusher

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 01:55:32 PM »
so you're in favor of putting innocent men in jail for life

spoken like the communist you truly are

not at all - i dont like stand your ground unless its limited to a home, office, or place where retreat is not an option. 

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 01:58:30 PM »
not at all - i dont like stand your ground unless its limited to a home, office, or place where retreat is not an option. 

and I asked you about the story I posted which is that situation exactly

a man on his own property being threatened by a man with a weapon, the shooter gives the guy a warning shot and he is still advancing and you've got an eyewitness who saw the entire thing

This guy is in jail for life and your only response was some stupid comment about Obama

LurkerNoMore

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 02:01:55 PM »
More obama voters out of the picture for Nov - whats not to like? 

You never miss a chance or fail to showcase just how bitter and unhappy you are with your own life do you?

No wonder mommy doesn't allow you outside.

Soul Crusher

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 02:03:57 PM »
and I asked you about the story I posted which is that situation exactly

a man on his own property being threatened by a man with a weapon, the shooter gives the guy a warning shot and he is still advancing and you've got an eyewitness who saw the entire thing

This guy is in jail for life and your only response was some stupid comment about Obama

Sounds ridiculous considering in most jurisdictions a third party is usually allowed to use lethal force to protect another persons' life if that persons' life is in imminent danger. 

sounds like a out of control prosecutor to me.  Nothing new - most prosecutors are zealots and pieces of shit. 

Skip8282

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 10:10:37 AM »
This isn't a failure of stand your grand...this is jackass prosecutors and judges.

If the facts presented above are correct, the black guy should be a free man.  Maybe the governor will issue a pardon.

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 10:18:12 AM »
This isn't a failure of stand your grand...this is jackass prosecutors and judges.

If the facts presented above are correct, the black guy should be a free man.  Maybe the governor will issue a pardon.

they have virtually the same stand your ground law in Georgia that they have in Florida (all written or in large part modeled bill written by
American Legislative Exchange Council)

I wonder if the "failure" of stand your ground in this case had anything to do with the race of the shooter and his dead assailent

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2012/04/13/the-secretive-corporate-outfit-behind-stand-your-ground/

Skip8282

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 10:23:18 AM »
Could be racism.  Don't like to make that type of call of just one case though.

To me...just going by the facts in the article...this is a justified shooting and a travesty of justice.

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 10:25:11 AM »
Could be racism.  Don't like to make that type of call of just one case though.
To me...just going by the facts in the article...this is a justified shooting and a travesty of justice.

I agree, can't make that call either but this just seems like about as clear of a case of self defense even without a "stand your ground" law

how the heck is this guy in jail for life?

Skip8282

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 10:26:32 AM »
I agree, can't make that call either but this just seems like about as clear of a case of self defense even without a "stand your ground" law

how the heck is this guy in jail for life?



Agreed.  It's disgusting.

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 10:28:29 AM »
Straw man is a gimmick that posts on here as part of a political agenda.  Do not be fooled by this guy and ones like him.  He is pushing a political point of view.  There are gimmicks like this on all social media.  They are propogandists with agenda driven messages in their posts. Dont be fooled by these people, use your own mind.

who are you ?

I only post under one account and post on multiple boards

how exactly am I a gimmick ?

this is a political message board and everyone here is expressing their own personal political beliefs

btw - what "agenda" can I have by posting on an obscure message board


Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2012, 10:42:53 AM »
Why so defensive?  You feel guilty? I need not respond to you, youre a joke,  just so the people that read this know who you really are....joke gimmick. Ahahahahahahah

not defensive at all dipshit

you have ~ 500 posts and you're calling me a gimmick and your premise that I have some political agenda is absurd given the venue

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 10:57:35 AM »
Fucking propogandist.  Shit gimmick at that.  Your post count only means you have been up to this awhile.  Doesnt mean shit.  You are an old gimmick who needed to be outed.  Go post on nyour other boards.  Youve been outed here.  We know your opinion.  We know your political slant.  You don pos on here to talk to friends. Only to bring up content that is slanted to your political point of view.  Or to chime in with you political slant.  Noone here likes you or cares to hear your opinion.  We already know.  Iwonder if you ever fucking post on bodybuilding o weightlifting?  Shit gimmick propogandist.  And you have other accounts.  I know this.

dude - a whole paragraph and you said nothing

everyone on this board is expressing their political view - is that "news" to you?

check out this gimmick post by me on the G&O board

obviously I promoting my agenda for the local dairy industry


I would have agree with you as recently as a few months ago but that article is 6 years old and there are  lot's of  recent info about the benefit of full fat, non-homogenized dairy

I haven't yet found a good source or raw milk and not sure that I would even want to take  the risk but I've been drinking full fat, non-homogenized, grass fed and low heat paturized milk and I really like it

Here's the stuff I buy: http://www.stbenoit.com/html/milk.html

This article by John Meadows is what got me thinking about it
http://www.t-nation.com/strength-training-topics/1284

tonymctones

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 11:01:43 AM »
from your post earlier today...

I'm not saying the parents aren't trying to profit but at this point I see no evidence of that and I'm not going to make any assumptions without proof

is there any proof in this case or the martin case that race is involved?

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2012, 11:09:15 AM »
from your post earlier today...

is there any proof in this case or the martin case that race is envolved?

I dont' think race is an issue in Martin and I don't know enough about the case in Georgia to say whether race was motivation for why he was prosecuted (he wasn't charged until a year after the shooting)

IMO - race is irrelevent in Martin case.  

what is relevent is an armed man stalking and ultimately shooting an unarmed teenager who was not commiting any crime


Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2012, 11:11:01 AM »
So defensive, huh gimmick.  So so defensive.     ;)

I guess if defensive meaning challenging your definition of "gimmick"

still no idea why you think someone posting on a political message board wouldn't naturally be expressing a personal political opinion

tonymctones

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2012, 11:25:43 AM »
I dont' think race is an issue in Martin and I don't know enough about the case in Georgia to say whether race was motivation for why he was prosecuted (he wasn't charged until a year after the shooting)

IMO - race is irrelevent in Martin case. 

what is relevent is an armed man stalking and ultimately shooting an unarmed teenager who was not commiting any crime
You mean a person who legally is carrying a concealed weapon, trying to keep an eye on a person who fits the description of people who had robbed multiple houses in the area, then getting in an altercation probaby due to the fault of both parties and protecting himself?


Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2012, 11:47:27 AM »
You mean a person who legally is carrying a concealed weapon, trying to keep an eye on a person who fits the description of people who had robbed multiple houses in the area, then getting in an altercation probaby due to the fault of both parties and protecting himself?

I can mostly agree with all except the fault of both parties

no proof of that at all as far as I'm aware

we do know a legally armed man, profiled ("fits the description of people who had robbed multiple houses" ), stalked and eventually shot and killed an unarmed teenager

we don't know how the confrontation occurred although we do know the outcome

tonymctones

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2012, 12:04:28 PM »
I can mostly agree with all except the fault of both parties

no proof of that at all as far as I'm aware

we do know a legally armed man, profiled ("fits the description of people who had robbed multiple houses" ), stalked and eventually shot and killed an unarmed teenager

we don't know how the confrontation occurred although we do know the outcome
so in your mind its just as likely that trayvon attacked zimmerman and he was simply defending himself then?

LOL you can word it anyway you want to try and convey a negative connotation but trayvon fit the description of ppl who had reportedly committed many burglaries in the area.

Straw Man

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Re: When “stand your ground” fails
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2012, 12:12:27 PM »
so in your mind its just as likely that trayvon attacked zimmerman and he was simply defending himself then?
LOL you can word it anyway you want to try and convey a negative connotation but trayvon fit the description of ppl who had reportedly committed many burglaries in the area.

I'd say it' more likely that Zimmerman was the aggressor and certainly created the situation by choosing to follow this kid

but if you want to go with just as likely that's fine with me

we can have a long conversation about the "fit the description claim" if you want (I don't think it's relevent for a bunch of reasons)