When “stand your ground” fails

[tonymctones]

I'd say it' more likely that Zimmerman was the aggressor and certainly created the situation by choosing to follow this kid

but if you want to go with just as likely that's fine with me

we can have a long conversation about the "fit the description claim" if you want (I don't think it's relevent for a bunch of reasons)

does being the "aggresor" include questioning trayvon on what he was doing or what business he had there?

[240 is Back]

sliding scale here.


what if zimmerman chased a 15 year old, the 15 year old swung on him, and zimm killed him?

what about a 10 year old?

FL law says there is no defined 'i feared for my life'.   Zimm could say "i was passing out from the 10 year old choking me, i shot him"

Of course it wouldn't be credible - that's up to the jurors to decide.

[Fury]

sliding scale here.


what if zimmerman chased a 15 year old, the 15 year old swung on him, and zimm killed him?

what about a 10 year old?

FL law says there is no defined 'i feared for my life'.   Zimm could say "i was passing out from the 10 year old choking me, i shot him"

Of course it wouldn't be credible - that's up to the jurors to decide.

What's with you and the "what ifs"? They are not relevant to the topic and are usually the mark of someone who can't argue a point on its merits.

[240 is Back]

What's with you and the "what ifs"? They are not relevant to the topic and are usually the mark of someone who can't argue a point on its merits.

the minute people say it's fine for zimm to angrily create a situation where he can legally claim self-defense, you open up a lot of 'what if's.

Cause I could walk up and down crack town all day insulting mothers until someone broke my nose, shoot their hearts out they back, and hey, it's legal mang.

[Fury]

the minute people say it's fine for zimm to angrily create a situation where he can legally claim self-defense, you open up a lot of 'what if's.

Cause I could walk up and down crack town all day insulting mothers until someone broke my nose, shoot their hearts out they back, and hey, it's legal mang.

You already did, scumbag. You were a second away from capping two men who had the audacity to look at you.  

Again, your "what if" arguments are fucking pointless and the sign of a weak debater.

[240 is Back]

You already did, scumbag. You were a second away from capping two men who had the audacity to look at you. 

Again, your "what if" arguments are fucking pointless and the sign of a weak debater.

If they had guns in their hards, I woudl have capped them.  You betcha.  If they would have fists, I woudl have gotten the hell back in my car (attempt to de-escalate/escape the situation).

Now, since my car was blocked in, i woudl have shot garage doors out the back of their heads once they grabbed that door handle. 


But i had that duty to flee/retreat/de-escalate.   Stand-your-ground removes that. 

I can get in anyone's face, call their dead mothers whores, and when i get hit, start murdering MFers.    All legal.  Give my ass a trophy.

[Straw Man]

does being the "aggresor" include questioning trayvon on what he was doing or what business he had there?

depends on how he did it

btw -was Martin wearing anything that identifed him as a neighborhood watch person ?


the bottom line is that no one knows how the confrontation started or escalated.

the only story we have is from a guy trying (at the time) to keep his ass out of jail

again, the only facts we know are  that an armed man stalked, confronted and ultimatey shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was not committing any crime at all (as far as we know)

I would think that forensic evidence (if the cops had bothered do preserve and investigate the scene) would easily be able to determine if Martin was shot while lying on his back on the ground or while he was sitting up (i.e. shot from someone lying beneath him).   

Also very odd that the cops labeled Martin a John Doe even though he supposedly had ID

It doesn't prove or disprove any claims by Zimmerman but it does suggest that the cops didn't do a very good job at the scene of the crime

[tonymctones]

sliding scale here.


what if zimmerman chased a 15 year old, the 15 year old swung on him, and zimm killed him?

what about a 10 year old?

FL law says there is no defined 'i feared for my life'.   Zimm could say "i was passing out from the 10 year old choking me, i shot him"

Of course it wouldn't be credible - that's up to the jurors to decide.

agreed, dont know what this post has to do with anything being discussed or the events as this wasnt a 10 year old kid. This was a 17 year old kid, at 17 I was a pretty stout kid and had the ability to do some real damage if I wanted to.

again I have no idea why you brought it up anyway...

[tonymctones]

depends on how he did it

btw -was Martin wearing anything that identifed him as a neighborhood watch person ?


the bottom line is that no one knows how the confrontation started or escalated.

the only story we have is from a guy trying (at the time) to keep his ass out of jail

again, the only facts we know are  that an armed man stalked, confronted and ultimatey shot and killed an unarmed teenager who was not committing any crime at all (as far as we know)

I would think that forensic evidence (if the cops had bothered do preserve and investigate the scene) would easily be able to determine if Martin was shot while lying on his back on the ground or while he was sitting up (i.e. shot from someone lying beneath him).   

Also very odd that the cops labeled Martin a John Doe even though he supposedly had ID

It doesn't prove or disprove any claims by Zimmerman but it does suggest that the cops didn't do a very good job at the scene of the crime

btw, a person doesnt need any ID to ask a question. Zimmerman didnt break any law either that we know of.

you say that its fact that zimmerman confronted trayvon I havent read that, can you post a link for me?

I agree on the forensics I would imagine that they could use the autopsy if one was done to verify.

P.S. When I lived with my folks we had ppl walk/drive down the street from time to time and if I was outside and they gave me the opportunity I would ask if they needed help.

We had a big fight go on across the street with some high school kids and I went out in our drive way and told them all to break it up and started asking questions.

Asking a question isnt illegal...

[Straw Man]

btw, a person doesnt need any ID to ask a question. Zimmerman didnt break any law either that we know of.

you say that its fact that zimmerman confronted trayvon I havent read that, can you post a link for me?

I agree on the forensics I would imagine that they could use the autopsy if one was done to verify.

P.S. When I lived with my folks we had ppl walk/drive down the street from time to time and if I was outside and they gave me the opportunity I would ask if they needed help.

We had a big fight go on across the street with some high school kids and I went out in our drive way and told them all to break it up and started asking questions.

Asking a question isnt illegal...

why would you feel the need to point out that asking a questions isn't illegal

did I ever say that it was ?


You certainly don't need an ID to ask anyone a question but if Martin was acting in the capacity of  neighborhood watch then shoudn't he be identified as such in one way or another.    If he was following me (we know he was following Martin) and then came up and asked who I was or what I was doing here I would have told him to fuck off.  Why should I answer some strangers question, especially if I don't know him and he's been following me and I think he is the one acting weird and possibly threatening (just following someone in the dark could easily be construed as a threatening act)

Regarding "confrontation" I'm going by what Martin girlfriend said she heard on the phone.  As I said before,
"no one knows how the confrontation started or escalated" except Martin who has huge motivation to lie about it

you and I and everyone one else can only speculate so here is my speculation

I have a problem with Zimmerman saying that Martin was running away from him and then somehow decided to turn around and run toward him and attack him. That claim makes no sense to me.  If you're running away then why would you turn around and run back

Zimmerman most likely knew the complex better than Martin From and from the map (posted earlier on this site) it look like Zimmerman took a route that would allow him to circle around and wind up in front of Martin.     Whether it was intentional or not he wound up in front of Martin.   Given his statements on the phone and his seeming anger at people "getting away" and most likely feeling empowered by carrying a gun, it's not an unlikely scenario that he confronted Martin and that Martin felt threatened by him.   It's also not unlikely that Martin tried to leave and get away from him and that Zimmerman tried to prevent him from leaving ( I think this is a strong possiblity as to how the confrontation escalated)  Note - again this is all speculation on my part .  Again, I have a hard time believing that kid who felt someone was following him and trying to walk fast and "get away" would suddenly turn around and become an attacker.   That just makes no sense to me.   I think it's more likely that Zimmerman confronted Martin and Martin felt threatened and tried to get away from this weird dude who had been following him and that's how it escalated

[tonymctones]

I wont quote as to save space but I agree I would probably be a little reserved when talking to someone who just approaches me, that being said there isnt anything wrong with what zimmerman did either.

you dont think that a kid who is questioned by some random guy wouldnt get an attitude and tell the guy to fuck off like you said you would do? escalating the situation and possibily starting a physical altercation?

kids these days go off at the drop of a hat, if he felt threatened which I would as well and he decided to hit zimmerman as a response or push him etc. that could have been what started it as well.

Even if it went exactly like you speculate it did, what law did zimmerman break? why charge him with anything when it was simply a shitty situation made worse by both parties?

[Straw Man]

I wont quote as to save space but I agree I would probably be a little reserved when talking to someone who just approaches me, that being said there isnt anything wrong with what zimmerman did either.

you dont think that a kid who is questioned by some random guy wouldnt get an attitude and tell the guy to fuck off like you said you would do? escalating the situation and possibily starting a physical altercation?

kids these days go off at the drop of a hat, if he felt threatened which I would as well and he decided to hit zimmerman as a response or push him etc. that could have been what started it as well.

Even if it went exactly like you speculate it did, what law did zimmerman break? why charge him with anything when it was simply a shitty situation made worse by both parties?

as I mentioned, we know that Zimmerman was following Martin which could easily be perceived as a threatening action all by itself.   Per Martin's girlfriend he said a guy was following him and she told him to run and he said he wasn't going to run but walk fast (going from memory here)

If I were walking at night and someone was following me I wouldn't in any way feel compelled to answer his questions.   If i were trying to "get away" and was stop/questioned etc.. I would want to "get away" even more than before.   Given that Zimmerman made a comment to the effect that "these guys always get away" and that he pursued Martin even when told not to I think it's certainly plausible that he was confrontational, threatening (again just following someone in the dark is threatening) and could very easily have tried to detain Martin if he was tryign to get away and not answer his questions

That scenario (all speculation on my part) seems alot more plausible to me than a kid who is trying to get away suddenly doing a 180 and becoming an aggressor

[240 is Back]

suppose zimmerman and trayvon would have clashed, and trayvon would have broekn his tea bottle on the sidewalk, cut zimmermanbadly so he bled out in under a minute (before police arrived).


Would everyone saying "zimmerman winning" be celebrating trayvon?   We'd only have the word of the pot selling kid that the mean neighborhood watch guy 'attacked him'.   I think a lot of the people who believe zimmerman solely on the evidence of "um, cause zimmerman said so" woudl have a hard time applying that standard to trayvon".

Wait, so we're supposed to believe trayvon was really scared of a guy following him?  No, he was clearly a murderer who killed someone just trying to keep the streets safe". 

Epic dbl standard.  I just don't see 333386 saying "Trayvon WINNING!"   

[Straw Man]

suppose zimmerman and trayvon would have clashed, and trayvon would have broekn his tea bottle on the sidewalk, cut zimmermanbadly so he bled out in under a minute (before police arrived).


Would everyone saying "zimmerman winning" be celebrating trayvon?   We'd only have the word of the pot selling kid that the mean neighborhood watch guy 'attacked him'.   I think a lot of the people who believe zimmerman solely on the evidence of "um, cause zimmerman said so" woudl have a hard time applying that standard to trayvon".

Wait, so we're supposed to believe trayvon was really scared of a guy following him?  No, he was clearly a murderer who killed someone just trying to keep the streets safe". 

Epic dbl standard.  I just don't see 333386 saying "Trayvon WINNING!"   

has there been any explanation as to why Martin was tagged as a John Doe

was there any decent quarantine and investigation of the crime scene (I don't know which is why I'm asking)

Can you post that map of Zimmermans route again

[240 is Back]

has there been any explanation as to why Martin was tagged as a John Doe

was there any decent quarantine and investigation of the crime scene (I don't know which is why I'm asking)

Can you post that map of Zimmermans route again

in a town of 51k people.... 6 foot 3 kid reported missing that night... 6 foot 3 kid goes into morgue...

nobody makes that connection huh?    yet they have the ability to get a police chief and a prosecutor out of a bed on a sunday night to override the lead detective before his ass could formally charge zimmerman.

Then they let the body sit on ice for 3 days, killing all evidence.  They didn't demand shirt from zimmerman.  nothing.  They took his word, and they hid the kid as long as they could.

You're telling me in such a small town, nobody connected the dead body (with ID?) with the mssing kid report?  Oh sheesh.  Smells bad like a coverup.

[Straw Man]

in a town of 51k people.... 6 foot 3 kid reported missing that night... 6 foot 3 kid goes into morgue...

nobody makes that connection huh?    yet they have the ability to get a police chief and a prosecutor out of a bed on a sunday night to override the lead detective before his ass could formally charge zimmerman.

Then they let the body sit on ice for 3 days, killing all evidence.  They didn't demand shirt from zimmerman.  nothing.  They took his word, and they hid the kid as long as they could.

You're telling me in such a small town, nobody connected the dead body (with ID?) with the mssing kid report?  Oh sheesh.  Smells bad like a coverup.

at the very least unbelievably shoddy police work

and Martins body did have ID on it right?

[tonymctones]

as I mentioned, we know that Zimmerman was following Martin which could easily be perceived as a threatening action all by itself.   Per Martin's girlfriend he said a guy was following him and she told him to run and he said he wasn't going to run but walk fast (going from memory here)

If I were walking at night and someone was following me I wouldn't in any way feel compelled to answer his questions.   If i were trying to "get away" and was stop/questioned etc.. I would want to "get away" even more than before.   Given that Zimmerman made a comment to the effect that "these guys always get away" and that he pursued Martin even when told not to I think it's certainly plausible that he was confrontational, threatening (again just following someone in the dark is threatening) and could very easily have tried to detain Martin if he was tryign to get away and not answer his questions

That scenario (all speculation on my part) seems alot more plausible to me than a kid who is trying to get away suddenly doing a 180 and becoming an aggressor

what if he didnt do a 180 but zimmerman went around somewhere and meet him per 240's map?

I agree with the threatening situation that trayvon may have felt that being said I think its perfectly plausible that he may have reacted violently to zimmermans questions, dont you?

Youre making alot of assumptions based on very little if any evidence.

[tonymctones]

suppose zimmerman and trayvon would have clashed, and trayvon would have broekn his tea bottle on the sidewalk, cut zimmermanbadly so he bled out in under a minute (before police arrived).


Would everyone saying "zimmerman winning" be celebrating trayvon?   We'd only have the word of the pot selling kid that the mean neighborhood watch guy 'attacked him'.   I think a lot of the people who believe zimmerman solely on the evidence of "um, cause zimmerman said so" woudl have a hard time applying that standard to trayvon".

Wait, so we're supposed to believe trayvon was really scared of a guy following him?  No, he was clearly a murderer who killed someone just trying to keep the streets safe". 

Epic dbl standard.  I just don't see 333386 saying "Trayvon WINNING!"   

LOL its not enough to just say a person may have done something wrong and make that into this guy was wrong like youre doing.

In this country he is innocent until proven guilty, you want to convict him based on basically nothing substantial...

this seems more and more like a shitty situation that went sour probably due to the fault of both individuals. Both to blame but nothing really illegal about the situation.

Again I ask you guys if the situation went down like straw says it may have what laws did he break?

[240 is Back]

if i ever met zimm, i woudl call him every name in the book.

not because he shot a kid - but because he so irresponsibly gave ammo to the anti-gun pricks out there. 

Dude was so thirsty for a confrontation that he charged into a dark yard with a person he was chasing and acted so surprised he got jumped.

And really, did you hear him on the 911 tape?  Dude was probably 80 IQ or sporting a buzz.   "I think he's on druuuugs or sumthin'

[tonymctones]

if i ever met zimm, i woudl call him every name in the book.

not because he shot a kid - but because he so irresponsibly gave ammo to the anti-gun pricks out there. 

Dude was so thirsty for a confrontation that he charged into a dark yard with a person he was chasing and acted so surprised he got jumped.

And really, did you hear him on the 911 tape?  Dude was probably 80 IQ or sporting a buzz.   "I think he's on druuuugs or sumthin'

Im sure you would big hoss, Im sure you would...

now can you tell me what laws he broke?

[240 is Back]

Im sure you would big hoss, Im sure you would...

now can you tell me what laws he broke?

i believe he lied to police.

I guess we'll see when the discrepencies in the report come out.  Something changed when the lead investigator wanted to arrest zimmer for his own statements... then when daddy the judge and the police chief and prosecutor show up... suddenly it's textbook legal shoot speak.

Sorry, but i carry and have spent 15 years carrying, and reading forums filled with guys who carry.  Too many angry wannbe heroes.  He lied, i'm sure of it, and we'll see at trial.  Nobody runs INTO a drak battle if they believe the guy is on drugs and armed with something in his hand he pulled from wastband.  He exaggerated on his 911 call, lied to police.

[Straw Man]

what if he didnt do a 180 but zimmerman went around somewhere and meet him per 240's map?

I agree with the threatening situation that trayvon may have felt that being said I think its perfectly plausible that he may have reacted violently to zimmermans questions, dont you?

Youre making alot of assumptions based on very little if any evidence.

I know.  I brought this up as one of the reasons I'm not inclined to believe Zimmermans story

I'm going to assume he knew the complex very good given that he lived there and was doing a neighborhood watch.

He was intent on following him and angry about people that always got away

He could well have intended to circle around in an attempt to cut Martin off

I've said at least a couple times know that only Zimmerman and Martin know how the confrontation played out

[tonymctones]

i believe he lied to police.

I guess we'll see when the discrepencies in the report come out.  Something changed when the lead investigator wanted to arrest zimmer for his own statements... then when daddy the judge and the police chief and prosecutor show up... suddenly it's textbook legal shoot speak.

Sorry, but i carry and have spent 15 years carrying, and reading forums filled with guys who carry.  Too many angry wannbe heroes.  He lied, i'm sure of it, and we'll see at trial.  Nobody runs INTO a drak battle if they believe the guy is on drugs and armed with something in his hand he pulled from wastband.  He exaggerated on his 911 call, lied to police.

perhaps he wasnt running into battle only trying to keep an eye on him and trayvon confronted him, have you given that any thought?

[tonymctones]

I know.  I brought this up as one of the reasons I'm not inclined to believe Zimmermans story

I'm going to assume he knew the complex very good given that he lived there and was doing a neighborhood watch.

He was intent on following him and angry about people that always got away

He could well have intended to circle around in an attempt to cut Martin off

I've said at least a couple times know that only Zimmerman and Martin know how the confrontation played out

agreed, but the thing is he didnt do anything wrong in either scenario...

stupid, yes...illegal, NOOOOOO

[240 is Back]

perhaps he wasnt running into battle only trying to keep an eye on him and trayvon confronted him, have you given that any thought?

he seemed sqfully angry.   I bet trayvon did swing first.  I bet zimmy had never taken an ass whooping in his life and figured "halt and explain yourself!" would work.   Sure didn't.

And he is a real cawk for citing 'stand your ground' instead of legal defense by forcible felony with inability to flee.