Warrior and Attitude Era

[littleguns]

Hypothetical......

Warior never parted ways with Vince and was around for the Attitude era. Would he have faired well against Austin, Rock, Angle Jericho etc???

Board seems slow this week so putting something new out there..

[Montague]

Good question.
In my estimation, I would say no; simply because every member of the WWF roster made adjustments to their work during the "Attitude" transition. Hellwig, however, refused to ever evolve his character and/or as a performer.

I suspect that the above fact, coupled with his stubbornness and lack of professionalism, would have quickly relegated him to an expendable asset in the Fed. I honestly believe that he eventually would have wound up in WCW in the exact role and capacity he did in '98.

Prick.

[The Showstoppa]

It would have been a comical contrast as his larger than life, no-selling character with simply stink-bomb promos skills would have really been shown to be a giant turd.  Terrible in-ring worker with maybe even less mic "skills" would have equaled a good laugh at the expense of HBK, Austin, HHH, New Age, etc... as he jobbed out of the WWF.  Then WCW would have signed him for a guaranteed billion dollar contract as Monty said.

[polychronopolous]

It would have been a comical contrast as his larger than life, no-selling character with simply stink-bomb promos skills would have really been shown to be a giant turd.  Terrible in-ring worker with maybe even less mic "skills" would have equaled a good laugh at the expense of HBK, Austin, HHH, New Age, etc... as he jobbed out of the WWF.  Then WCW would have signed him for a guaranteed billion dollar contract as Monty said.

Lol...could you imagine the fun DX would have had at Helwigs expense?? 

[Hulkster]

I think he would have done well.

Warrior gets a bad rap mostly from people who are too young to have been fans in his heyday.

Warrior had energy, charisma, excitment and the right gimmick.

and he had some amazing matches with Rude, Savage, Hogan, Perfect, Dibiase etc.

people trash his work rate yet he had a ton of great matches.
and no, I dont buy the "they carried him to a good match" bullshit.

it takes two to have a great match.
he connected with the fans like no one except for Hogan and arguably Austin.
I mean, just look at this: no one in the current age gets this kind of fan reaction. no one.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUV2Fa8HzGY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUV2Fa8HzGY</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFOoNNAYcQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFOoNNAYcQ</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl2dWUIZwLA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl2dWUIZwLA</a>

Warrior rant over LOL

[Montague]

he connected with the fans like no one except for Hogan and arguably Austin.

It's all just a matter of opinion. I can see where you're coming from on many of those points, but I'm fussing a bit with the one quoted above, which I feel is a bit exaggerated.

Hellwig was more than a flash in the pan, but not much more. IMO, his character lacked the depth required to even begin to approach Hogan/Austin status. Backstage political conflicts aside, the Fed gave him the big push, but he failed to demonstrate the longevity of his peers. Furthermore, his return in WCW in 1998 was a disaster. The Halloween Havoc match he did with Hogan was a real disaster. Does it also take two to have a bad match? Hogan also had many good matches.

Additionally, if you compare the verbiage and oratory style of his 1998 promos to those of the political ramblings he would later author, it's reasonable to speculate that Ultimate Jim wrote his own material (or most of it) in WCW, so we can't blame the booking/creative. His attempted cerebral mic work was uninteresting to and lost on most of the audience.

The most credit I'll give him is that he had some good moments, but not enough to last, and certainly not enough to earn the treatment and compensation he felt he deserved. His biggest "wrestling industry" success has come from suing Vince over intellectual property rights to the Ultimate Warrior name, image, and likeness.

[littleguns]

Could you imagine Warrior and Rock getting into a Promo battle??

UW - "Warriors....through the nation of infidels and hypochondriacs, we shall walk through the epocleses of the nation..feel the power
Rock "What the hell did you say"?
UW - "rock, through"
Rock - " It doesn't matter what you said!"

[Montague]

Could you imagine Warrior and Rock getting into a Promo battle??

UW - "Warriors....through the nation of infidels and hypochondriacs, we shall walk through the epocleses of the nation..feel the power
Rock "What the hell did you say"?
UW - "rock, through"
Rock - " It doesn't matter what you said!"

Amusing, but I don't know that his ego would have allowed it.

[silverback1984]

warrior kicked ass, my fav wrestler ever, who didnt want to be him growing up

[littleguns]

As kids I think we all wanted to be Warrior but as we all got older, we all realized how non-sensical his promos were and how he was a one dimensional wrestler. In saying that though - I wish things would have worked out with Warrior and Vince building a longer run for Warrior.

Warrior/Goldberg or Warrior/Lesnar might have been something to watch.

[Hulkster]

his promos were nonsensical, but you have to remember we are looking back from a time when promos are so important (some would say way too important, shows are more about talking then they are about wrestling these days).

in the late 80s and early 90's promos didn't matter.

now, they do.

again, people look back at the Warrior's run from today's perspective, which is wrong.

you have to look at it from the viewpoint of the time, and at the time he was amazing.

and original.

[Hulkster]

Backstage political conflicts aside, the Fed gave him the big push, but he failed to demonstrate the longevity of his peers.

absolutely. he got in, left his mark and got out.

in a way, perhaps the smart thing to do.

look what the WWE lifestyle does to people.

look at Hogan's personal life. look at all the dead wrestlers who should still be alive.

the roids, the painkillers, the 300+ days on the road eats people up and spits them out.

Warrior was probably smart enough to realize this when few do.

as far as his run as world champ, I've said it before and I'll say it again: horrible horrible booking.

after his rude program (which was good) they had him in a bunch of 3 man tags, then they had him drop the title.

had they booked a continuation of the hogan program, started the Savage one earlier, he would have been a lot better as a world champ.

as it stands, his IC run was much better than his world run.

[Montague]

absolutely. he got in, left his mark and got out.

in a way, perhaps the smart thing to do.

look what the WWE lifestyle does to people.

look at Hogan's personal life. look at all the dead wrestlers who should still be alive.

the roids, the painkillers, the 300+ days on the road eats people up and spits them out.

Warrior was probably smart enough to realize this when few do.

as far as his run as world champ, I've said it before and I'll say it again: horrible horrible booking.

after his rude program (which was good) they had him in a bunch of 3 man tags, then they had him drop the title.

had they booked a continuation of the hogan program, started the Savage one earlier, he would have been a lot better as a world champ.

as it stands, his IC run was much better than his world run.

One big reason for the lousy booking was that Hellwig was shallow and extremely limited in what he could do, and so there wasn’t a whole lot they could do with him. Like with Hogan, they ran out of options - just much faster.

Part of the longevity of guys like Flair and Taker is that they could revisit rivalries. The Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior characters only knew how to get themselves over. Their modus operandi was to engage in a great build-up with a big heel, in which the heel was made to seem like they posed a legitimate threat; and then to squash the heel at the end of the PPV match, leaving no room for a second encounter.

Wrestling is about telling stories in the ring. Jim Hellwig only knew one story, and that‘s why almost every one of his matches was the same. He was a one-trick pony who quickly wore out his welcome, which is why the old man never gave in to his higher demands. If Hellwig had deserved the Hogan treatment, he’d have gotten the Hogan treatment.

One final point to consider about the booking, is that Ultimate Jim had a portion of creative control over his character both in WWF & WCW. So, if you’re going to blame bad booking, then he still deserves to share that blame.

[cheftim]

One big reason for the lousy booking was that Hellwig was shallow and extremely limited in what he could do, and so there wasn’t a whole lot they could do with him. Like with Hogan, they ran out of options - just much faster.

Part of the longevity of guys like Flair and Taker is that they could revisit rivalries. The Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior characters only knew how to get themselves over. Their modus operandi was to engage in a great build-up with a big heel, in which the heel was made to seem like they posed a legitimate threat; and then to squash the heel at the end of the PPV match, leaving no room for a second encounter.

Wrestling is about telling stories in the ring. Jim Hellwig only knew one story, and that‘s why almost every one of his matches was the same. He was a one-trick pony who quickly wore out his welcome, which is why the old man never gave in to his higher demands. If Hellwig had deserved the Hogan treatment, he’d have gotten the Hogan treatment.

One final point to consider about the booking, is that Ultimate Jim had a portion of creative control over his character both in WWF & WCW. So, if you’re going to blame bad booking, then he still deserves to share that blame.

I don't think Warrior and Hulkster were the same by squashing the heel and leaving no room for a second encounter at all. Hogan would always win yes, but his fueds went on forever. How long did it go on with Andre, Savage, Zues, Earthquake, and Slaughter? Hogan beat them all but the fueds against these guys seemed like they lasted forever. Hulksters fueds against Zues and Slaughter to me would just not go away.   

[Montague]

I don't think Warrior and Hulkster were the same by squashing the heel and leaving no room for a second encounter at all. Hogan would always win yes, but his fueds went on forever. How long did it go on with Andre, Savage, Zues, Earthquake, and Slaughter? Hogan beat them all but the fueds against these guys seemed like they lasted forever. Hulksters fueds against Zues and Slaughter to me would just not go away.   

The feuds, yes. Their build-ups lasted for months - some of them even close to year. But, once they had their big match...POOF!! It was all over. There was never any "part 2."
Think Piper, Bundy, Killer Kahn, One Man Gang, and the guys you mentioned above; with the exception of Andre, Hogan seldom worked another program with any of them. That's why the Hogan character wore out. After he did his paradigmatic mow-down, they had to bring in someone new to feed him, or at least build up someone to pose a threat.
The act got tired, fans saw through it, and that's why Hogan tanked in WCW until they re-invented his character.

[The Showstoppa]

The feuds, yes. Their build-ups lasted for months - some of them even close to year. But, once they had their big match...POOF!! It was all over. There was never any "part 2."
Think Piper, Bundy, Killer Kahn, One Man Gang, and the guys you mentioned above; with the exception of Andre, Hogan seldom worked another program with any of them. That's why the Hogan character wore out. After he did his paradigmatic mow-down, they had to bring in someone new to feed him, or at least build up someone to pose a threat.
The act got tired, fans saw through it, and that's why Hogan tanked in WCW until they re-invented his character.

x2.

And Hulkster, believe me I remember that time period VERY well from a few different feds as I was old enough to "get it" and Warrior was nothing more than a great look, great entrance, 5-6 "moves" after a rope shake and slam for the win.  He was very boring and repetitive to those of us who grew up watching Flair, Steamboat, Race, AA,  etc... and his promos were incomprehensible jibberish that only catered to children who thought of him as a real life cartoon character.  Which, ironically, he turned out to be.  His ring-work never developed because he was to arrogant or stubborn.  I compare him to Lex Luger.  Similar look, builds, etc... with very weak mic work and weren't willing to learn in-ring past the first few months of what a local trainer could provide.

One thing I did always find funny about UW was that despite having an incredible look the guy blew-up in virtually every match I watched him in due to the "spazing" out he insisted on doing. haha

[cheftim]

The feuds, yes. Their build-ups lasted for months - some of them even close to year. But, once they had their big match...POOF!! It was all over. There was never any "part 2."
Think Piper, Bundy, Killer Kahn, One Man Gang, and the guys you mentioned above; with the exception of Andre, Hogan seldom worked another program with any of them. That's why the Hogan character wore out. After he did his paradigmatic mow-down, they had to bring in someone new to feed him, or at least build up someone to pose a threat.
The act got tired, fans saw through it, and that's why Hogan tanked in WCW until they re-invented his character.

Timmy never watched the WCW version of Hulkster. But I would think that a big part of the reason why his character didn't work there is because Hulkamania was dead. He no long had the 24 inch pythons and his baldness really set in. His larger then life character was no more.

[The Showstoppa]

Timmy never watched the WCW version of Hulkster. But I would think that a big part of the reason why his character didn't work there is because Hulkamania was dead. He no long had the 24 inch pythons and his baldness really set in. His larger then life character was no more.

I think the biggest mistake they made was acting like it was still the 80's-early 90's with the angles and booking.  They brought in every Hogan hack (Ed Leslie, Jimmy Hart, etc...) and booked him in goofy stuff like with Kevin Sullivan's giant cage thing.  But by far the worst thing they did was to throw him and Flair against each other right off the bat.  Should have built that up for a year or so at the least.

The heel/nWo stuff saved Hogan in the WCW.  His character/style was becoming completly outdated with fans often pulling for the "bad guys" and he was smart enough to shove his way into the nWo and did a great job with it.

[Montague]

I think the biggest mistake they made was acting like it was still the 80's-early 90's with the angles and booking.  They brought in every Hogan hack (Ed Leslie, Jimmy Hart, etc...) and booked him in goofy stuff like with Kevin Sullivan's giant cage thing.  But by far the worst thing they did was to throw him and Flair against each other right off the bat.  Should have built that up for a year or so at the least.

The heel/nWo stuff saved Hogan in the WCW.  His character/style was becoming completly outdated with fans often pulling for the "bad guys" and he was smart enough to shove his way into the nWo and did a great job with it.

Vince isn't the only one to have damaged wrestling.

Dusty Rhodes
Jim Herd
Kevin Sullivan
Hulk Hogan
Bill Watts
Vince Russo
Bill Bush
Ted Turner
Stephanie McMahon
Dixie Carter
and Bruce Hart...

...have all done their share.

[MCWAY]

I don't think Warrior and Hulkster were the same by squashing the heel and leaving no room for a second encounter at all. Hogan would always win yes, but his fueds went on forever. How long did it go on with Andre, Savage, Zues, Earthquake, and Slaughter? Hogan beat them all but the fueds against these guys seemed like they lasted forever. Hulksters fueds against Zues and Slaughter to me would just not go away.   

Not really! Hogan's feud with Zeus lasted maybe 6-7 months. After the "No Hold Barred: The Match, The Movie" pay-per-view, Zeus was done.

Same with Slaughter. After he beat the Ultimate Warrior for the title, everyone knew that he and Hogan would battle at WrestleMania. People were just waiting to see which heel would take the belt from Warrior, so that Hogan could win the championship again (I was hoping it would be Ravishing Rick Rude).

[MCWAY]

absolutely. he got in, left his mark and got out.

in a way, perhaps the smart thing to do.

look what the WWE lifestyle does to people.

look at Hogan's personal life. look at all the dead wrestlers who should still be alive.

the roids, the painkillers, the 300+ days on the road eats people up and spits them out.

Warrior was probably smart enough to realize this when few do.

as far as his run as world champ, I've said it before and I'll say it again: horrible horrible booking.

after his rude program (which was good) they had him in a bunch of 3 man tags, then they had him drop the title.

had they booked a continuation of the hogan program, started the Savage one earlier, he would have been a lot better as a world champ.

as it stands, his IC run was much better than his world run.

He didn't get out; he got BOOTED OUT!!

Even by winning the title, he was never as big as Hogan. They only had "double main events", because Hogan wasn't in the title match.

The INSTANT the referee's hand hit three and Warrior lost the title to Slaughter, his day was DONE! NOBODY was clamoring for a Warrior-Slaughter re-match. They wanted Slaughter-Hogan, so Hogan could get the belt back

Warrior got fired in '91, after all that buildup with Jake "the Snake" Roberts. When he got re-hired in '92 and with Hogan gone, Warrior was supposed to be the poster guy again. He failed on that front and got fired again for failing a drug test.

He got re-hired yet again in '96, to help lead the "new generation" of the WWF. He didn't even last six months and got canned for not showing up at live events, using his father's death as an excuse. WWF replaced Warrior with Sid, who eventually won the title.

After all that brouhaha about legally owning the right to the name "Warrior", Helwig (who legally changed his name to Warrior in '93) went to WCW and proceeded with Hogan to STINK UP THE JOINT with that garbage from Haloween Havoc, a pitiful excuse of a re-match from WrestleMania 6.

Bischoff wanted to keep Warrior but renegotiate his contract. Warrior held out; so Bischoff let the original one expire and showed Warrior the door afterwards.

[MCWAY]

It's all just a matter of opinion. I can see where you're coming from on many of those points, but I'm fussing a bit with the one quoted above, which I feel is a bit exaggerated.

Hellwig was more than a flash in the pan, but not much more. IMO, his character lacked the depth required to even begin to approach Hogan/Austin status. Backstage political conflicts aside, the Fed gave him the big push, but he failed to demonstrate the longevity of his peers. Furthermore, his return in WCW in 1998 was a disaster. The Halloween Havoc match he did with Hogan was a real disaster. Does it also take two to have a bad match? Hogan also had many good matches.

Additionally, if you compare the verbiage and oratory style of his 1998 promos to those of the political ramblings he would later author, it's reasonable to speculate that Ultimate Jim wrote his own material (or most of it) in WCW, so we can't blame the booking/creative. His attempted cerebral mic work was uninteresting to and lost on most of the audience.

The most credit I'll give him is that he had some good moments, but not enough to last, and certainly not enough to earn the treatment and compensation he felt he deserved. His biggest "wrestling industry" success has come from suing Vince over intellectual property rights to the Ultimate Warrior name, image, and likeness.

The irony of it all is that he hates Hogan's guts. Yet, without Hogan, the Ultimate Warrior would have been little more than (as Bobby Heenan put it)  a guy who "came out of a Gold's Gym with a can of tuna and a raw egg, who said one day 'there's a WWE truck; I'm going to tell them I'm a wrestler".

[Montague]

Not really! Hogan's feud with Zeus lasted maybe 6-7 months. After the "No Hold Barred: The Match, The Movie" pay-per-view, Zeus was done.

Same with Slaughter. After he beat the Ultimate Warrior for the title, everyone knew that he and Hogan would battle at WrestleMania. People were just waiting to see which heel would take the belt from Warrior, so that Hogan could win the championship again (I was hoping it would be Ravishing Rick Rude).

Yes, the Sarge was merely a transitional champ. It's not his fault - any heel at that time would have served in the same capacity: removing the belt from Hellwig to get back to Hogan because the UW character wasn't cutting it.

Zeus is a good example of the paradigmatic heel built up, fed, then relegated to basically nothing. Although, maybe it's not completely fair to place Tiny Lister in that category; I don't know that he necessarily had long-term plans for the business. But, if Vince had a use for him, I'm sure they would have come to some kind of agreement.

Look at Bundy. He was made out to be the biggest, most powerful monster in the world leading up to WM II. By WM III, he was working a mixed-tag match with the midgets.

That's what I meant by Hogan being limited to a single program. Even Andre wasn't a feud re-visit. That was more of a continuation from WM III; they just kept it running.

[littleguns]

That's what I meant by Hogan being limited to a single program. Even Andre wasn't a feud re-visit. That was more of a continuation from WM III; they just kept it running.

Monty I beg to differ slightly.One of the best feuds I saw was maybe 85ish. Back when WWF did monthly shows at Madison Square Garden and televised them on MSG. They had a 4 month battle between Hulk and Macho with Randy winning the first 2 months by DQ or countout. It all climaxed at the third match 3 months later with Hogan finally winning. This elevated Randy big time.

Let's face it, the market has changed although I think bringing in some new character wrestlers might be good. Funkasaurus, maybe a face painted wrestler, maybe a heavyweight masked person (anyone remember Masked Superstar). Give some fun back to the element.

[Montague]

Monty I beg to differ slightly.One of the best feuds I saw was maybe 85ish. Back when WWF did monthly shows at Madison Square Garden and televised them on MSG. They had a 4 month battle between Hulk and Macho with Randy winning the first 2 months by DQ or countout. It all climaxed at the third match 3 months later with Hogan finally winning. This elevated Randy big time.

Point taken.
Although, this was certainly an exception; not the rule.

The angle did as you said, though. That brief program with Hogan gave Macho excellent exposure and established him as a formidable force. As result, Savage had tremendous momentum going into his I-C win over Santana.