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Author Topic: Very intense workouts  (Read 2190 times)
sculpture
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« on: May 06, 2012, 06:39:17 AM »

Can anyone give me some suggestions for some very intense workouts to try. Every 4 weeks or so I break from my normal routine and try to shock my body. Id like the idea of a workout perhaps that placed great cardiovascular demand on my body as well as total body fatigue so one incorporating compund exercises perhaps. Giant sets are good I ve found and I have tried Tabata training also.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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Montague
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 06:55:57 AM »

If you're up for doing some reading and thinking, here's a good article on "German Body Composition" training that Charles Poliquin wrote in 2009: http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/german-body-comp-program/
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jpm101
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 10:31:57 AM »

Interesting interval training  article suggested by Montague. Poliquin always has some different takes on training.

Might also suggest the PHA (Peripheral Heart Action) system developed by Bob Gajda. I consider this one of the very few truly ultimate intense training approachs to serious training. Very advanced and have mentioned it from time to time in the past.Not going to go through any length on this myself, just to say that I have used it quite a few times, with excellent stamina, strength and muscle gains. This style program will encourage quick fat loss and lean muscle gains. Can be well suited for the older trainee as well as any teenager.

Did a quite search, this morning, finding many articles trying to pass PHA off as anything but the original concept of Gajda. Came across the dennisbweis.com site which gives a more factual account of the PHA system. Look under Free Articles, click on "A Revisit with the PHA system".  Just to note that there is no pause ,or breaks, between sets, exercises or groups of exercises with this protocol......at all.

 Sergio Oliva trained, with Gajda at the Duncan YMCA in Chicago, where it had been said that he used the PHA system. Or so I have read and been told. Good Luck.
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Yev33
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »

Do a Smolov squat cycle, thank me later.
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Montague
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 04:01:31 PM »

Interesting interval training  article suggested by Montague. Poliquin always has some different takes on training.


Yeah, he also seems quite keen on the Germans' training ideas. He's always been a big proponent of their methods, and many sources credit him as being the one to introduce GVT to the U.S.

That all seems to indicate to me that the Germans have really got their shit together!
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sculpture
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 04:31:23 AM »

Thank you for your suggestions. I remember reading about PHA when i was much younger, i will read up on it again.

I ve found high rep giant sets very taxing, such as barbell rows - deadlifts - barbell shrugs all for 20 reps each in continuous fashion, mentally taxing and that what i would like to do more of. My current routine is a 3 day split push, pull and lower workouts that follow a set format of the first 2 exercises being CNS, functional compounds (high sets, low reps), 2 bodyweight exercises afterwards (chins, dips, handstand pressups) and then lastly 2 bodybuilding type exercises that focus on structural hypertrophy (6 - 8 reps). Its a good routine that develops balanced growth but i'd like to really up the ante once a month when i break off from my standard routine.

Adam
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funk51
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 07:29:39 AM »

bob gajda mr pha.


* bob gadj mr a.jpg (35.53 KB, 434x558 - viewed 456 times.)
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jpm101
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 09:34:38 AM »

 Quite a few of those  experimental  (leading to advance) training methods were developed from Russia sources. Later encouraged within Russian block and controlled countries such as the Baltic states and portions of central Europe. East Germany (supported by Russia..back in the day) had a leading influence in track & field events, most notice being on the women athletes. East Germany was also noted for their massive chemical engineering projects with all of their athletes. That was standard protocol for all communist countries, as well as the athletes being housed and supported by the state.  China is now developing exceptional Olympic lifters, as well a gymnast. Smaller countries like Armenia & Turkey have also produced world class lifters.

Some of the weights used, in daily training, by the Olympic lifters was staggering. Floor cleans almost as much as most  good DL's.  Overhead lifting surpassed some BP records. Squatting was unbelievable.  Most of these lifter seem to have an unbelievable muscle thickness about them.

Most giant sets (usually 5 to 7 exercises) only required 8 to 10 reps and a repeat cycle of 2 or 3(max), at the most. But than again, if people find the need for more rep's to reach their person goal, than so be it.

Just to note: GVT was to give Olympic lifters  more of a muscle reflex/impulse style of training, and limit or reduce joint/tendon/ligament heavier training sessions. Most found an increase in strength and some would gain enough pure muscle weight to advance into a heavier body weight lifting class. Said to be developed in German speaking countries, which could be loosely described as anywhere from the Northern  Europe to Germany it's self. Some suggest Hungary or Polish coaches as the prime source of this style training. Not really important, GVT does seem to work very well for most.  Good Luck.

Side Bar: Gironda had a similar method , using 10X10's & 8X8's in his original BB'ing courses, probably starting in the early 50's.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 07:23:35 AM »

One thing I noticed about the countries where their Olympic lifters excel is that it seems they aren't to concerned with recuperation.  How many of these countries train  5 to 6 days a week in the Olympic lifts and auxiliary exercises?  I don't understand even when using periodization or training cycles how they can do heavy lifts so often.   
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Montague
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 07:58:12 AM »

One thing I noticed about the countries where their Olympic lifters excel is that it seems they aren't to concerned with recuperation.  How many of these countries train  5 to 6 days a week in the Olympic lifts and auxiliary exercises?  I don't understand even when using periodization or training cycles how they can do heavy lifts so often.   


It is surprising at times. Perhaps it comes down to superior conditioning, PED's, etc.

JPM may have a better understanding.
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jpm101
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 07:02:46 PM »

Actually it is all about recuperation and recovery. That's how successful   and world class Olympic lifters are developed. The CNS is always kept in mind. Every workout does not always come close to a one max effort rep, though there are a few selected times when a 1 rep max  is tested in the training hall. Rep patterns are interchangeable for near max to lighter reps. Major point being that going to a point of failure, in most every workout, is self defeating. Pl'ers know this, most successful BB'er also know this. Sorry to say, most average BB'ers, even after years of going to failure type training, don't seem to understand this important concept. And in return, pretty much stay average , and look the same,year after year.

Olympic training is build around the core of percentage and tonnage lifted from every workout to the next.  isometrics (static position/holds) and plyometrics  (speed/quickness/power) are other training elements for these athletes. All  build around the idea of volume load and percentage of. weight hoisted. Every week can be a form of periodization, from workout to workout.

The 5 & 6 training day is mostly standard, but as  important Olympic meets  approach, this can be reduced to 3 times a week.. Two to 4 times a day sessions are not that uncommon, those this protocol will depend on every individual lifting coach. Recent trends very as to 1 or twice a day training.

Coaches do not always agree on one single way to train their Olympic lifters. But all agree that it  is important to have the neophyte adapt to the advancing workload put upon them as they get stronger and mentally tougher . Saying in Olympic training that "The lifter becomes the function". Or being one with the bar lifted, not a lifter who lifts the bar. Meaning that the  lifter is one unit with that heavy iron.  In return, tuned to a finer degree of very high physical condition . So the near impossible weights they lift, for the normal onlooker, can really seem quit normal for them.  Good Luck
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ritch
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 07:07:31 PM »

if you're really pressed for time, do:
triple drop set followed by
resp pause technique
then one static hold

That should tear down enough muslce fibers in that one set to get you through busy times in your life.
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jpm101
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 08:20:11 AM »

Might also add that's it's about recuperation, recovery and (most importantly) avoiding any serious, long lasting injury. Another reason that few training sessions are taken to the ultimate max weight used with Olympic lifting protocols. Good Luck.
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Montague
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 08:39:25 AM »

Might also add that's it's about recuperation, recovery and (most importantly) avoiding any serious, long lasting injury. Another reason that few training sessions are taken to the ultimate max weight used with Olympic lifting protocols. Good Luck.


Aside from PED's, do you know what the dietary and/or supplemental aspect of many of these athletes consists of? There are plenty of OTC supplements that aid in recovery, etc.
I would imagine that differences among individuals will yield different nutritional  protocols, but do you know any "typical" examples?

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oldtimer1
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 08:50:51 AM »

Actually it is all about recuperation and recovery. That's how successful   and world class Olympic lifters are developed. The CNS is always kept in mind. Every workout does not always come close to a one max effort rep, though there are a few selected times when a 1 rep max  is tested in the training hall. Rep patterns are interchangeable for near max to lighter reps. Major point being that going to a point of failure, in most every workout, is self defeating. Pl'ers know this, most successful BB'er also know this. Sorry to say, most average BB'ers, even after years of going to failure type training, don't seem to understand this important concept. And in return, pretty much stay average , and look the same,year after year.

Olympic training is build around the core of percentage and tonnage lifted from every workout to the next.  isometrics (static position/holds) and plyometrics  (speed/quickness/power) are other training elements for these athletes. All  build around the idea of volume load and percentage of. weight hoisted. Every week can be a form of periodization, from workout to workout.

The 5 & 6 training day is mostly standard, but as  important Olympic meets  approach, this can be reduced to 3 times a week.. Two to 4 times a day sessions are not that uncommon, those this protocol will depend on every individual lifting coach. Recent trends very as to 1 or twice a day training.

Coaches do not always agree on one single way to train their Olympic lifters. But all agree that it  is important to have the neophyte adapt to the advancing workload put upon them as they get stronger and mentally tougher . Saying in Olympic training that "The lifter becomes the function". Or being one with the bar lifted, not a lifter who lifts the bar. Meaning that the  lifter is one unit with that heavy iron.  In return, tuned to a finer degree of very high physical condition . So the near impossible weights they lift, for the normal onlooker, can really seem quit normal for them.  Good Luck
I understand what you are saying about not training to failure but just training in Olympic lifts 6 days a week is brutal. Just think about the lifts they use. Back squats, front squats, cleans, snatches and all the whole body auxiliary lifts adds up to brutal sessions. 
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jpm101
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 10:07:50 AM »

Oldertimer1:  One man's brutal is another man's normal. It's becoming accustomed and adapting to do what is required when smart and logical training is taught. Never underestimate the ability of the human body to adjust to extreme conditions, as far as strength and physical condition is concerned. It can become quite manageable after awhile. Second nature, really.

A loose example might be to take an average 30 year old man, without any athletic background, and train him for a short one mile run. He probably couldn't run a true mile, if a gun was held against his head, at first. If he sticks with it, with proper workouts & recovery periods between, and most important.....a good mental attitude...3 to 4 weeks should show a somewhat easy one mile run. And perhaps, if he stays with the program, he could be running 3 miles without and problem. That original one miles would seem like only a light warm-up for him after a while. Depending on his level of ambition, perhaps half marathons after awhile.

I'm familiar with TRI athletes around Sd county. Some on those men, and women, started in their 40's and a few in their 50's, setting PB all the time.

Montague: Don't know of any special products (suggestion that Clear, and other like coverups, had been a major "helper" in the past ...not so much present day.) Most athletes, power sports included, are directed to complex carb/protein based diet. N.O. may also be added to a supplement program, along with creatine & a whey protein mix.

Just to note: N.O., combined with select amino acids, have been know as a great male sex booster, for some who compare it with sildenafil (viagra), etc..  In any event N.O. & creatine  research suggest their aid with memory and general brain health/repair. Just drink lots of water during the day.  Good Luck.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 01:09:29 PM »

(Oldertimer1:  One man's brutal is another man's normal. It's becoming accustomed and adapting to do what is required when smart and logical training is taught. Never underestimate the ability of the human body to adjust to extreme conditions, as far as strength and physical condition is concerned. It can become quite manageable after awhile. Second nature, really.)

I completely disagree with your premise that Olympic lifting training is quite manageable even second nature. It's one of the most brutal training sessions around.

Talking about tri athletes who started in their 40' and 50's setting personal records, I don't see your point? Of course they would.  I started competing in sprint events when I was 14 to about 21.  Even though I was a sprinter I could run a sub 18 minute 5 K in my younger years.  I could never do that now and I have a hell of a time running  21 minutes 5K in my 50's.  I would imagine if I never ran before and took it up in my 50's there would be a ton of personal records being broken. The personal records of course wouldn't be what I would be able to do in my youth.
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jpm101
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 02:52:10 PM »

The Olympic lifts are quite manageable, from teens to old timers. Young women, from high school, college and beyond adapt and do  very well also. Olympic lifts do require a person of some athletic abilities, which may not be required (or that suitable) for PL'ing or BB'ing. No excessive brutal efforts require once technique is learned and mastered. Lifts can go very smoothly  and can become as second nature.  Beginning drills may require hundreds of reps, with just with the bar, to learn style/form and timing.

Not sure why you believe that the lifts are all that brutal, perhaps from your experience and personal attempts, they were/are. Hoping you do understand not every workout is max effort, as stated before. And the joints/tendons/ligaments are not put under exceptional stress every workout. Olympic lifters seem not to have a higher percentage of injuries than other athletes.

Sorry you don't see the point of people starting TRI's in the 40's & 50's and expanding on their PB (Personal Best) from that age on. Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to want to compare what you had done in your youth, to the present. Can never use that has any sort of gauge for the present.   Good Luck

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